RD 1, Pick 23: CB Kaiir Elam, Florida

[Sierra Foothills]

19 hours ago, Perry Turtle said:

White and Elam could be the best pair of cornerbacks the Bills have ever had.

 

That raises a good question

• Butch Byrd-Booker Edgerson
• Robert James-Tony Greene (before he switched to safety)
• Mario Clark-Charles Romes
• Antoine Winfield-Nate Clements

Seems like I'm missing one more pair.

 

16 hours ago, Doc said:

And the Ravens were obviously shopping the 23rd pick to more than just the Bills.  That's common sense.

 

This.

 

Any team that's willing to trade down is obviously going to shop that pick to as many teams as possible to maximize their compensation.

 

It's more likely than not that there was at least one other team interested in pick 23.

Edited April 30, 2022 by Sierra Foothills

[JohnBonhamRocks]

27 minutes ago, Sierra Foothills said:

 

That raises a good question

• Butch Byrd-Booker Edgerson
• Robert James-Tony Greene (before he switched to safety)
• Mario Clark-Charles Romes
• Antoine Winfield-Nate Clements

I’d put Clements-McGee up there. 

[ehfeuh57]

3 hours ago, Sierra Foothills said:

 

That raises a good question

• Butch Byrd-Booker Edgerson
• Robert James-Tony Greene (before he switched to safety)
• Mario Clark-Charles Romes
• Antoine Winfield-Nate Clements

 

 

I always thought it was easily Winfield Clements (the others were before my time)

[Logic]

5 hours ago, Zerovoltz said:

 

This is very interesting.

 

I don't think they were calling to get to 20 for Elam.

 

Here is why:

 

IF the Bills had Elam as the best rated DB on their board, it seems strange they'd be worried about going up for him when McDuffie was still available.  The reason being, McDuffie has been rated higher and been mocked higher than McDuffie throughout the scouting and draft process.  Many mocks had him as a top 15 pick..and some even had him inside the top 10.  Some ranking had him ranked ahead of Stinglely.  Elams has never been mocked that high and never shows up in any scouting services, any big board etc as a top 15 pick.  The highest I saw him was 17th.  Generally he's been a guy slated in the 28-34 range.  

 

Even if the Bills had Elam ranked higher than McDuffie (possible..we'll never know) then it would still be reasonable to think that most teams probably had McDuffie higher and that he'd be drafted before Elam, by some team just making their pick or by a team moving up.  Veach specifically saying that KC moved to 21 to get ahead of Buffalo suggests  (but isn't proof) that the Bills were trying manuever to get McDuffie.  Veach clearly had reason to think that McDuffie was the Bills target.  It's a fact that KC took McDuffie...so KC wasn't trying to move up to 21 because they were concerned Elam wouldn't be there. 

 

Given that McDuffie had been ranked appreciably higher by available sources, it doesn't seem like Elam was the guy the Bills were coveting when making calls to move up to as high as 20.    

 

That isn't to take away from Elam at all.  If KC couldn't make a trade...or if McDuffie was off the board at 15 or whatever and KC was sitting at 29..and the Bills at 25, also are still looking at him as the high end, round 1 talent that he is...that there is still a manuever by KC, the Bills or another team, to try and get him.  I'm not knocking the player or the pick.  I just don't think Elam was higher on the Bills board.  I do believe that they absolutely saw him/see him as a round 1, high end prospect worth securing with a high pick.  Elam was a guy KC fans often would disucss as a real possibility at 29/30 and was a popular guy to mock to KC there.  KC fans would have been happy to have ended up with him for all the same reasons you guys are glad to have him.

 

The Chiefs didn't go to 21 to jump the Packers.  21 was where you had to get in order to land McDuffie.  KC was surely not the only team asking about 21....and considedring KC paid a 3rd and 4th move up from 29...it would seem there were other bidders and KC had to overpay to get there.  .....the move was to get to 21 to secure the pick VS other teams vying to get to 21....not to jump GB.

We'll never know for sure, but I think Elam fits the profile of what this regime looks for in first rounders more than McDuffie. They like to get young, elite athletes who have room to grow, then turn them over to their coaching staff and entrust them to coach the kids up. To that end, as awesome as McDuffie already is, I don't believe he has the same room for growth or as a high a ceiling as Elam. I think McDuffie will be a high floor, dependable player who starts in this league for a decade+. A very safe pick. I think Elam is a "swing for the fences" guy who, though his floor is not as high as McDuffie's, has a higher ceiling.

There's also the physical attributes of Elam vs McDuffie -- particularly McDuffie's arms being much shorter than this staff prefers -- that make me question their interest in McDuffie.

We'll never know for sure. It's possible that you're right. I also think there's reason to believe you might not be.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

14 hours ago, I Am The Liqour said:

I feel like this is more Buffalo

 

Who are the guys flanking Kaiir in the 2nd row? 

[Doc]

5 hours ago, Zerovoltz said:

This is very interesting.

 

I don't think they were calling to get to 20 for Elam.

 

Here is why:

 

IF the Bills had Elam as the best rated DB on their board, it seems strange they'd be worried about going up for him when McDuffie was still available.  The reason being, McDuffie has been rated higher and been mocked higher than McDuffie throughout the scouting and draft process.  Many mocks had him as a top 15 pick..and some even had him inside the top 10.  Some ranking had him ranked ahead of Stinglely.  Elams has never been mocked that high and never shows up in any scouting services, any big board etc as a top 15 pick.  The highest I saw him was 17th.  Generally he's been a guy slated in the 28-34 range.  

 

Even if the Bills had Elam ranked higher than McDuffie (possible..we'll never know) then it would still be reasonable to think that most teams probably had McDuffie higher and that he'd be drafted before Elam, by some team just making their pick or by a team moving up.  Veach specifically saying that KC moved to 21 to get ahead of Buffalo suggests  (but isn't proof) that the Bills were trying manuever to get McDuffie.  Veach clearly had reason to think that McDuffie was the Bills target.  It's a fact that KC took McDuffie...so KC wasn't trying to move up to 21 because they were concerned Elam wouldn't be there. 

 

Given that McDuffie had been ranked appreciably higher by available sources, it doesn't seem like Elam was the guy the Bills were coveting when making calls to move up to as high as 20.    

 

That isn't to take away from Elam at all.  If KC couldn't make a trade...or if McDuffie was off the board at 15 or whatever and KC was sitting at 29..and the Bills at 25, also are still looking at him as the high end, round 1 talent that he is...that there is still a manuever by KC, the Bills or another team, to try and get him.  I'm not knocking the player or the pick.  I just don't think Elam was higher on the Bills board.  I do believe that they absolutely saw him/see him as a round 1, high end prospect worth securing with a high pick.  Elam was a guy KC fans often would disucss as a real possibility at 29/30 and was a popular guy to mock to KC there.  KC fans would have been happy to have ended up with him for all the same reasons you guys are glad to have him.

 

I live in the Dallas Ft Worth area...this is a LEGIT reason to believe the Cowboys would have in fact taken Elam.  Considering their fallback plan was..............................Tyler Smith?  A project OT/G.....there is NO CHANCE Smith was rated higher than Elam on the Cowboys draft board.  NONE.

 

The Chiefs didn't go to 21 to jump the Packers.  21 was where you had to get in order to land McDuffie.  KC was surely not the only team asking about 21....and considedring KC paid a 3rd and 4th move up from 29...it would seem there were other bidders and KC had to overpay to get there.  .....the move was to get to 21 to secure the pick VS other teams vying to get to 21....not to jump GB.

 

The Bills don't care about other peoples'/teams' ratings of CBs/players: they trust their own scouting first, as any team should.  So others having McDuffie rated higher didn't matter to them, they wanted to get their guy because all it takes is for one team to also think Elam is better and boom, he's gone and there goes a major need unfilled.  Beane might have even known that the Chefs were looking to trade up to 21 (and the Chefs admitted they traded up there to get ahead of the Bills) to get a CB, but not necessarily know which one, which is why he targeted 20.  But as GB said, McDuffie was a highly unlikely target of the Bills.

 

I agree that Dallas was likely looking at Elam and Beane knew it, but obviously couldn't/wouldn't reveal it.  He might have also known that other teams were interested in the 23rd since, again, the Ravens were shopping it and would have shopped it to more than just the Bills.  Also the reaction from their war room, taking the entire time for their pick and reaching big-time for Smith corroborates it.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

5 hours ago, Zerovoltz said:

Even if the Bills had Elam ranked higher than McDuffie (possible..we'll never know) then it would still be reasonable to think that most teams probably had McDuffie higher and that he'd be drafted before Elam, by some team just making their pick or by a team moving up.  Veach specifically saying that KC moved to 21 to get ahead of Buffalo suggests  (but isn't proof) that the Bills were trying manuever to get McDuffie.  Veach clearly had reason to think that McDuffie was the Bills target.  It's a fact that KC took McDuffie...so KC wasn't trying to move up to 21 because they were concerned Elam wouldn't be there. 

 

Given that McDuffie had been ranked appreciably higher by available sources, it doesn't seem like Elam was the guy the Bills were coveting when making calls to move up to as high as 20.   

 

Question: what are these sources, and why is it reasonable to think "most teams" had McDuffie higher?

 

I understand you're a Chiefs fan, so it's reasonable of you to think that the Chiefs got the better, more highly ranked player.  But we've seen over and over that how teams rank players, and how press draft pundits rank players, are not the same thing.

 

Maybe it's just hopeful thinking on my part, but if the Bills were calling around trying to get up to #20, I think it's possible they were hoping to get a player at a different position - Zion Johnson or Trevor Penning, or perhaps Treylon Burks (less likely I think).  Once those players were gone ahead of pick 20, it was time for "plan B".

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

13 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Who are the guys flanking Kaiir in the 2nd row? 

At one point it was Knox, Kaiir, Josh

 

 

[I Am The Liquor]

18 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Who are the guys flanking Kaiir in the 2nd row? 

Gabe Davis is on his right hand side and it looks like Mitch Morse on his left side.  Kind of hard to tell with the quality.

[Doc]

15 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

Question: what are these sources, and why is it reasonable to think "most teams" had McDuffie higher?

 

I understand you're a Chiefs fan, so it's reasonable of you to think that the Chiefs got the better, more highly ranked player.  But we've seen over and over that how teams rank players, and how press draft pundits rank players, are not the same thing.

 

Maybe it's just hopeful thinking on my part, but if the Bills were calling around trying to get up to #20, I think it's possible they were hoping to get a player at a different position - Zion Johnson or Trevor Penning, or perhaps Treylon Burks (less likely I think).  Once those players were gone ahead of pick 20, it was time for "plan B".

 

Why hopeful?  I still think Beane knew the Chefs were looking for a CB at 21 and that's why he targeted 20.  And I think CB was always the 1st round target.

[YoloinOhio]

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

33 minutes ago, SlimShady'sSpaceForce said:

At one point it was Knox, Kaiir, Josh

 

 

 

Right, but in the post I quoted, there was a link to a video in which it was clearly not - Josh was sitting next to Knox, then Doyle, then Sweeney.

Elam was in the 2nd row flanked by a couple of guys - I'm not sure if it was Tyrell Dodson, Gabe Davis, Elam, then Epenesa (??)

 

18 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

Why hopeful?  I still think Beane knew the Chefs were looking for a CB at 21 and that's why he targeted 20.  And I think CB was always the 1st round target.

 

Because I don't think the Chiefs and the Bills were both targeting the same CB.  I think if Beane wanted to move up, it would (hopefully) be for a different position.  And two quality OLmen I had hoped the Bills were targeting, both went off the board higher than 20 (17 and 19)

[I Am The Liquor]

The one with the beard on his left is Mitch Morse.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

35 minutes ago, I Am The Liqour said:

Gabe Davis is on his right hand side and it looks like Mitch Morse on his left side.  Kind of hard to tell with the quality.

 

Mitch Morse is a good guess, or how about Ryan Bates? 

 

2 minutes ago, I Am The Liqour said:

The one with the beard on his left is Mitch Morse.

 

Could it be Ryan Bates?  A guy who would pick up a chicken wing hat and scream "I'm a Chicken Wing!  I'm a ***** Chicken Wing!" would vibe well with that group

[I Am The Liquor]

I definitely agree Bates would fit in well with this group!  I do think its Morse though.  To go along with the classy professional analogy, he is just sitting there, politely clapping and smiling with no booze in hand.

[Doc]

14 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

Because I don't think the Chiefs and the Bills were both targeting the same CB.  I think if Beane wanted to move up, it would (hopefully) be for a different position.  And two quality OLmen I had hoped the Bills were targeting, both went off the board higher than 20 (17 and 19)

 

I don't think they were targeting the same CB either.  I think the Bills were always after Elam because he's taller, faster, has longer arms, and was really good in the premier division in college football.

 

As for OL, considering they signed Saffold and matched an offer sheet for Bates, and drafted Brown last year, I didn't think that IOL or RT were options.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

9 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

I don't think they were targeting the same CB either.  I think the Bills were always after Elam because he's taller, faster, has longer arms, and was really good in the premier division in college football.

 

As for OL, considering they signed Saffold and matched an offer sheet for Bates, and drafted Brown last year, I didn't think that IOL or RT were options.

 

Saffold on a 1 yr contract and the hope that Bates will continue to play well are not long term plans at IOL

[Doc]

1 minute ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

Saffold on a 1 yr contract and the hope that Bates will continue to play well are not long term plans at IOL

 

I think Bates is, hence matching his 4-year deal.  I agree on Saffold, but that's a concern for next year.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Just now, Doc said:

 

I think Bates is, hence matching his 4-year deal.  I agree on Saffold, but that's a concern for next year.

 

Given the importance of "building from the inside" and the fact that last year's OL was severely deficient in run blocking - the idea is to bring someone in BEFORE you need them.

[Alphadawg7]

47 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said:

 

I love this kid already!  Everything about him from his pre-draft visit, interviews, meeting Tre, wanting the playbook on the plane, etc just screams someone whose determined to be the best player he’s capable of at the next level.  
 

And this is exactly the kind of player that thrives with our coaches.  
 

I don’t know the future, but I feel like he’s going to be a great player for us and can’t wait to see him on the field.

Edited April 30, 2022 by Alphadawg7