Can we talk about Tremaine Edmunds?

[ganesh]

2 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

That's an interesting observation.  Of the three, I've always thought Hyde was the most valuable.  

 

I think Hamlin is Poyer's replacement.  Apparently he's a hitter and a coach-on-the-field type player.   

 

It's so interesting you say that about White.  In some ways he's underutilized in the defense, because he can do more than just cover.   Other teams would use him as a true-shut down guy - the Bills think they get more out of him, even if we don't see him, when he plays in the system.   I've suggest before that he may become a safety someday, if he can hold up in the run game.  

 

Why did they continue to do well without White?   It's Frazier and McD, man.   Next man, tweak the assignments, dial up the disguises, keep up the pressure from the front four.  

 

Trade Elam for Wallace?   All day, every day?

 

Miller for Hughes?  Love you, Jerry, but seriously?

 

Addison is the only guy who wasn't replaced with an obvious upgrade, but last year's rookie DEs plus Shaq are solid substitutes for Mario, maybe better.  

 

It's a great collection of players.  

 

 

Shaw,   

 

White was injured in the Saints game.  After losing him, the Bills played,  Patriots, Bucanneers, Panthers, Patriots, Falcons, Jets..... And agains the Bucs we were down 24-3 quickly. 

 

We got lucky that we were never tested by a good QB or offense.    

 

In the Playoffs we against whopped the Patriots and then allowed Mahomes to put 42 points on this defense....White was TRULY MISSED.

2 hours ago, ScottLaw said:

Bills are a SB contender with or without Edmunds… he’s a solid MLB, but he doesn’t move the needle in the W/L column what’s so ever…..compared to the pass rushers, wide outs and obviously QB who do…. Which is why I suggested my priority would be resigning Knox/Oliver before Edmunds.

I think this is what will happen

[Rampage]

He's a good player but we're getting to the point where we can't pay everyone, like all great teams. Thankfully for us, linebacker isn't the most crucial position on a team and if the contract his agents are looking for is out of control you can easily fill that hole with a serviceable player with a chance to grow through the draft.

Edited June 30, 2022 by Rampage

[BADOLBILZ]

2 hours ago, ganesh said:

In the Playoffs we against whopped the Patriots and then allowed Mahomes to put 42 points on this defense....White was TRULY MISSED.

I think this is what will happen

 

The Bills defense gave up 36 points in regulation to the Chiefs in the divisional game loss........42  in OT.......with 2 extra possessions than the Bills due to some coin luck......without Tre White.

 

The prior year they gave up 38 to the Chiefs in the AFCCG with Tre White.

 

The facts of the situation don't support the idea that Tre White was "TRULY MISSED".

 

Could he have helped?   Maybe........but the issue was Mahomes was keeping drives alive with his feet.........that's not a CB problem......NO corner in the league can cover as long as was being required.

 

In the process of Mahomes keeping drive after drive alive due to the inability of the Bills pass rush to finish....... the defense got totally exhausted and the last 3 Chiefs scores were mostly due to defensive fatigue.

[LABILLBACKER]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

The Bills defense gave up 36 points in regulation to the Chiefs in the divisional game loss........42  in OT.......with 2 extra possessions than the Bills due to some coin luck......without Tre White.

 

The prior year they gave up 38 to the Chiefs in the AFCCG with Tre White.

 

The facts of the situation don't support the idea that Tre White was "TRULY MISSED".

 

Could he have helped?   Maybe........but the issue was Mahomes was keeping drives alive with his feet.........that's not a CB problem......NO corner in the league can cover as long as was being required.

 

In the process of Mahomes keeping drive after drive alive due to the inability of the Bills pass rush to finish....... the defense got totally exhausted and the last 3 Chiefs scores were mostly due to defensive fatigue.

80 points over 2 playoff loses to KC.  The majority of the blame goes to our mediocre pass rush. You give Mahomes that much time he will eventually find Kelce or Hill.

    Now on paper with Hill gone and Tre, Von and Elam working, this scenario should finally end.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

36 minutes ago, LABILLBACKER said:

80 points over 2 playoff loses to KC.  The majority of the blame goes to our mediocre pass rush. You give Mahomes that much time he will eventually find Kelce or Hill.

    Now on paper with Hill gone and Tre, Von and Elam working, this scenario should finally end.

They moved Mahomes also but he made plays out of the pocket and running. That’s probably what frustrated the coaches the most. 

2 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

The Bills defense gave up 36 points in regulation to the Chiefs in the divisional game loss........42  in OT.......with 2 extra possessions than the Bills due to some coin luck......without Tre White.

 

The prior year they gave up 38 to the Chiefs in the AFCCG with Tre White.

 

The facts of the situation don't support the idea that Tre White was "TRULY MISSED".

 

Could he have helped?   Maybe........but the issue was Mahomes was keeping drives alive with his feet.........that's not a CB problem......NO corner in the league can cover as long as was being required.

 

In the process of Mahomes keeping drive after drive alive due to the inability of the Bills pass rush to finish....... the defense got totally exhausted and the last 3 Chiefs scores were mostly due to defensive fatigue.

And you’ve argued against the Bills spending cap on players that get home? You just gave reason why that cap was spent on Miller, Phillips, and others. So you’re just arguing everything just to argue. 

 

 

Edited June 30, 2022 by Buffalo_Stampede

[newcam2012]

7 hours ago, eball said:

 

You suggested the the D's level of play would not suffer with Klein replacing Edmunds.  Perhaps for a game or two, but over the long haul it would negatively impact them (see: Tre White).  Edmunds is one of the players on the Bills' defense opponents actually game plan around.  For you to say he "doesn't move the needle" tells me you don't really understand what's going on out there.

 

I get it, he doesn't have a lot of sacks, forced fumbles, or "splash plays" everyone wants to see, but I guarantee he affects what offenses are doing against Buffalo far more than you know.

 

You can talk about "prioritizing" who to re-sign all you want, but implying that Edmunds leaving is one big nothing burger isn't very intuitive.

 

Not sure what you are smoking. Edmunds is just okay. Teams aren't afraid of him and definelty don't game plan around him. Unless you mean, run in a gap that he misses for long runs. 

[newcam2012]

3 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

The Bills defense gave up 36 points in regulation to the Chiefs in the divisional game loss........42  in OT.......with 2 extra possessions than the Bills due to some coin luck......without Tre White.

 

The prior year they gave up 38 to the Chiefs in the AFCCG with Tre White.

 

The facts of the situation don't support the idea that Tre White was "TRULY MISSED".

 

Could he have helped?   Maybe........but the issue was Mahomes was keeping drives alive with his feet.........that's not a CB problem......NO corner in the league can cover as long as was being required.

 

In the process of Mahomes keeping drive after drive alive due to the inability of the Bills pass rush to finish....... the defense got totally exhausted and the last 3 Chiefs scores were mostly due to defensive fatigue.

To think the Bill's didn't miss Tre who is arguable the top 3 to 5 CBs in the league is ridiculous. To say maybe he would have helped is equally absurd. 

 

I didn't see any indication that the Bills defense was tired or gassed. It was two great QBs making plays and being special.

 

Having A healthy Tre may have been the missing piece to win the game. We obviously will never know. I can say with certainly he would have helped and the Bills missed him. 

Edited June 30, 2022 by newcam2012

[Buffalo_Stampede]

1 hour ago, newcam2012 said:

To think the Bill's didn't miss Tre who is arguable the top 3 to 5 CBs in the league is ridiculous. To say maybe he would have helped is equally absurd. 

 

I didn't see any indication that the Bills defense was tired or gassed. It was two great QBs making plays and being special.

 

Having A healthy Tre may have been the missing piece to win the game. We obviously will never know. I can say with certainly he would have helped and the Bills missed him. 

Tre doesn’t get beat inside by Hill for a TD when the coaches put Tre in perfect position to win like they had Wallace.
 

My only question here would be do the coaches actually have Tre on Hill? The Bills typically don’t move Tre around to match up best vs best. So I don’t know. 
 

The question isn’t does Tre make us better, he definitely does. The question is how do the coaches play it? On the particular play I mentioned they’re in man with safety help. They might’ve played it exactly the same. What pisses me off on that play is Kelce wasn’t even on the field and they got beat like that.

 

 I honestly don’t know how much of difference he makes. Hill got 83 and a TD of his 150 and a TD in the last 1:30 of the game. The Bills did a great job vs Hill up until then. And again on the TD it was a perfect coverage call like the coaches knew the call. Wallace gets beat inside while playing inside of Hill.

Edited June 30, 2022 by Buffalo_Stampede

[Richard Noggin]

11 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

I'm interested that so many people, including me, are of this opinion (that extending Poyer isn't some urgent priority). Break up what may be the best safety tandem in the league? For me, it's a measure of how much confidence I have in McDermott. My guess is that McD has told Beane not to break the bank on Poyer - get him at a price that still lets Beane keep guys who are really important; otherwise, McD's got guys waiting in the wings to move up and take over.  

 

This is probably a popular opinion, and one that I agree with. A 31-year old Jordan Poyer might not be worth a TOP dollar safety money extension, given the full context of the roster and cap. And that seems like a smart position: the Bills can't keep paying TOP dollar to BOTH safeties without sacrificing elsewhere. Too much of a luxury when you've already got a Josh Allen and a Stefon Diggs and a Tre White and a Von Miller and a Matt Milano, etc. 

 

The problem with this sober, logical approach to cap allocation moving forward, is that Poyer might force the issue sooner rather than later. Letting him play out his current deal is probably what most Bills fans/execs would prefer, but that seems to be an unlikely option. Poyer showing up to minicamp was apparently predicated upon some kind of good faith negotiations and assurances. The Bills either work out SOME kind of expensive extension/raise, or they suddenly have a hole/distraction at SS. Bottom line. 

[nosejob]

20 hours ago, eball said:

Bills fans will always need a whipping boy, no matter how good or how bad the team is.

 

My own belief is that Edmunds has many more responsibilities in the Bills' defense than those "traditionally" associated with a MLB.  I don't study the games enough to comment on what others say about his "lack of instincts" but what I see is an athletic, disruptive player who clearly impacts what the opposing offense is trying to do.

 

Edmunds being in the right position to force a QB to throw a pass just slightly differently than he wanted to, resulting in an incompletion, tipped ball, or INT doesn't show up on the stat sheet.  I've heard players talk about his enormous "presence" that makes teams have to plan around him.

 

I have not once heard McD or Frazier make the comment "Tremaine needs to make more plays."  They've said that about lots of other young defenders.

 

Some want a thumping MLB who stuffs the run.  That ain't Edmunds and never will be.  Continuing to hope he becomes that is an exercise in futility.

 

Frazier did indeed say that Tremaine needs to make more splash plays. That statement was brought up to him during an interview. He says that he just needs to trust his instincts and what he sees more.

 

Well not trying to be a hater, but I've seen enough to where I can't envision them even entertaining giving him 15 plus per year. I'm not thrilled with giving him almost 13 this yr. I get a sense about guys when I hear them speak and I'm sorry, I just don't think his brain matches his body. Maybe I'll be surprised.....

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, nosejob said:

Frazier did indeed say that Tremaine needs to make more splash plays. That statement was brought up to him during an interview. He says that he just needs to trust his instincts and what he sees more.

 

Well not trying to be a hater, but I've seen enough to where I can't envision them even entertaining giving him 15 plus per year. I'm not thrilled with giving him almost 13 this yr. I get a sense about guys when I hear them speak and I'm sorry, I just don't think his brain matches his body. Maybe I'll be surprised.....

 

He did. It was in his mini camp / OTA presser on 7th June for those who want to find it. He generally said Tremaine is still growing and still learning. He was then asked something like "what more does Tremaine need to do?" and his answer was "keep doing what he is doing but with more of those game changing splash plays." Slightly paraphrasing. So it wasn't said entirely as a negative, it was a balanced perspective. 

 

The Beane, McDermott and Frazier comments on Tremaine have been notably circumspect this offseason with the exception of Beane's combine interview. They are very much in wait and see mode. I think it is 50/50 on whether 2022 is his last season with the Bills. 

Edited June 30, 2022 by GunnerBill

[nosejob]

41 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

He did. It was in his mini camp / OTA presser on 7th June for those who want to find it. He generally said Tremaine is still growing and still learning. He was then asked something like "what more does Tremaine need to do?" and his answer was "keep doing what he is doing but with more of those game changing splash plays." Slightly paraphrasing. So it wasn't said entirely as a negative, it was a balanced perspective. 

 

The Beane, McDermott and Frazier comments on Tremaine have been notably circumspect this offseason with the exception of Beane's combine interview. They are very much in wait and see mode. I think it is 50/50 on whether 2022 is his last season with the Bills. 

50/50 I agree, but in the K.C playoff game it looked like it was his first time in an NFL game. I'm not expecting much if any improvement in YEAR 5.

[Rock-A-Bye Beasley]

On 6/29/2022 at 7:22 AM, delirious said:

 

I've made my thoughts known on Edmunds plenty of times. Even though I come across as a Edmunds hater (I just dislike all the mental gymnastics done for him lol), I'd much rather the Bills re-sign him and big Ed (preferably after big Ed) than keep Poyer. 

 

The Bills have some of the best db coaching in the league.

I think it will be tougher to find someone as good as or better than Poyer over the next 3 seasons. Edmunds is replacement level IMO. Bobby Wagner would have been a huge upgrade and a top 100 pick has a good chance of being as good or better. 
 

It’s possible to sign all 3 (Poyer, Edmunds, Oliver) as they’re already making decent money.

 

Despite Josh’s raise in 2023, Bills will be able to create cap space once again. Around 60mil can be cleared by restructures/extensions alone. They hopefully won’t have much dead cap while they currently have over 16mil. Those factors, plus the cap going up will make the cap situation much better than most Bills fans are fearing. 
 

Unfortunately, we have to hear how money is tight for another year from fans. 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

20 minutes ago, Rock-A-Bye Beasley said:

I think it will be tougher to find someone as good as or better than Poyer over the next 3 seasons. Edmunds is replacement level IMO. Bobby Wagner would have been a huge upgrade and a top 100 pick has a good chance of being as good or better. 
 

It’s possible to sign all 3 (Poyer, Edmunds, Oliver) as they’re already making decent money.

 

Despite Josh’s raise in 2023, Bills will be able to create cap space once again. Around 60mil can be cleared by restructures/extensions alone. They hopefully won’t have much dead cap while they currently have over 16mil. Those factors, plus the cap going up will make the cap situation much better than most Bills fans are fearing. 
 

Unfortunately, we have to hear how money is tight for another year from fans. 

And with long extensions for Oliver, Knox, and Edmunds the cap hits could be relatively low the first couple years. Yes it’s possible to keep everyone and just push cap back.

 

Josh being young allows us to push his cap back with restructures and extensions for a while. 
 

This is where Pegula comes into play. Will he want to keep spending tens of millions of his own money every year to try and win a Super Bowl?

[eball]

Oy vey.  I'll step out of this discussion.  I didn't realize the Bills had a mediocre player at MLB who doesn't impact games and can be replaced by a 3rd or 4th rounder easily with no drop-off.

 

I'll see myself out.

[BADOLBILZ]

9 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

They moved Mahomes also but he made plays out of the pocket and running. That’s probably what frustrated the coaches the most. 

And you’ve argued against the Bills spending cap on players that get home? You just gave reason why that cap was spent on Miller, Phillips, and others. So you’re just arguing everything just to argue. 

 

 

 

 

This is clearly hard for you to comprehend..........but some of us actually think that the game shouldn't even have been played in Arrowhead in the first place.

 

That the result of the divisional game wasn't an indicator that the defense wasn't good enough to win a Super Bowl with.........or even beat the Chiefs on most days(as they had done in Arrowhead earlier in the season).    

 

They ran into a red hot offense that day.   First time in NFL history two teams that had scored 40 the week before met the following week in the playoffs.  

 

Regular season losses to Pittsburgh, Jacksonville, New England and Indianapolis............games where they simply couldn't execute offensively due to a league worst pass blocking OL(125 combined sacks and pressures was the most) and the lack of YAC talent(last in the NFL in that category) cost them what should have been a cruise to home field advantage.

 

Lest we forget........the Bills defense was ranked #1 in the NFL.  

 

It was the offense that lost 3 games in a 5 game stretch where they scored just 6, 15 and 10 points before they started running Josh Allen 10x per game to cover up for those weaknesses.

 

If you think the KC game was impacted by a lack of Tre White........then imagine that game with Josh Allen on the sidelines because you had to run him 8-12 times per game all season to cover for some league-worst weaknesses on offense.

 

I've never criticized the Von Miller signing..........they swapped him out for Hughes and Addison.  

 

Where I diverge from Beane's thinking is that the OL just needed a patch job with a 34 year old OG with chronic shoulder issues and some league minimum type reserves who share the same issues that hurt the Bills OL last year(Quessenberry lead the NFL in sacks allowed!)................but the interior DL needed 3 more guys getting NFL starter money in addition to the high pedigree Ed Oliver.  

 

Or that losing half of their #2 boundary WR combo,  not replacing that production,  and instead further fortifying the defense with those DT's and a first round CB was suspect. 

 

 

 

Edited June 30, 2022 by BADOLBILZ

[BADOLBILZ]

8 hours ago, newcam2012 said:

To think the Bill's didn't miss Tre who is arguable the top 3 to 5 CBs in the league is ridiculous. To say maybe he would have helped is equally absurd. 

 

I didn't see any indication that the Bills defense was tired or gassed. It was two great QBs making plays and being special.

 

Having A healthy Tre may have been the missing piece to win the game. We obviously will never know. I can say with certainly he would have helped and the Bills missed him. 

 

 

It literally is not.

 

The Bills are a heavy zone defense team...........individual CB play is much less of a factor than if they had been a primarily man coverage defense.

 

Like I said.........there were other issues on defense that undermined the CB play........and as evidenced the year prior.........without pass rush Tre White was abused and looked ridiculous against Tyreek Hill.............that 2020 defense played worse in the AFCCG loss than the one in the 2021 divisional game did.     The fatigue unraveled them in 2021..........they were just helpless to stop Mahomes for most of the game in 2020.

 

If Tremaine Edmunds wasn't a puppet on string in coverage against Mahomes THAT would have made a difference in that game.    As evidenced by the impact that Logan Wilson had in coverage the next week for the Bengals.   Night and day difference in instincts and execution between Wilson and Edmunds in those games.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

 

34 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

This is clearly hard for you to comprehend..........but some of us actually think that the game shouldn't even have been played in Arrowhead in the first place.

 

That the result of the divisional game wasn't an indicator that the defense wasn't good enough to win a Super Bowl with.........or even beat the Chiefs on most days(as they had done in Arrowhead earlier in the season).    

 

They ran into a red hot offense that day.   First time in NFL history two teams that had scored 40 the week before met the following week in the playoffs.  

 

Regular season losses to Pittsburgh, Jacksonville, New England and Indianapolis............games where they simply couldn't execute offensively due to a league worst pass blocking OL(125 combined sacks and pressures was the most) and the lack of YAC talent(last in the NFL in that category) cost them what should have been a cruise to home field advantage.

 

Lest we forget........the Bills defense was ranked #1 in the NFL.  

 

It was the offense that lost 3 games in a 5 game stretch where they scored just 6, 15 and 10 points before they started running Josh Allen 10x per game to cover up for those weaknesses.

 

If you think the KC game was impacted by a lack of Tre White........then imagine that game with Josh Allen on the sidelines because you had to run him 8-12 times per game all season to cover for some league-worst weaknesses on offense.

 

I've never criticized the Von Miller signing..........they swapped him out for Hughes and Addison.  

 

Where I diverge from Beane's thinking is that the OL just needed a patch job with a 34 year old OG with chronic shoulder issues and some league minimum type reserves who share the same issues that hurt the Bills OL last year(Quessenberry lead the NFL in sacks allowed!)................but the interior DL needed 3 more guys getting NFL starter money in addition to the high pedigree Ed Oliver.  

 

Or that losing half of their #2 boundary WR combo,  not replacing that production,  and instead further fortifying the defense with those DT's and a first round CB was suspect. 

 

 

 

The OL had injuries and Covid issues most the year. Once healthy and with Bates the OL improved a great deal. 
 

Saffold is an upgrade, end of story. 
 

On defense they rotate 7-8. They lost 2 DTs as well. They replaced them. 
 

They believe Gabriel Davis is ready to get 100+ targets. Sanders and Davis combined for 135 targets. Davis could easily be a 120 target WR next year. That’s where we’re heading. I think we’re likely to see a split of the remaining targets between Crowder, Knox, McKenzie, Shakir, RBs, and others.

 

When I say you don’t believe in Davis that’s what I mean. They think Davis is about to have a huge season. 
 

They didn’t need to spend on a WR because they feel they have the guy already. 
 

Let me add that the games you mentioned, Davis didn’t play much. When he did he was used as a blocker a lot. Sanders played over Davis because of seniority, not talent. The Jacksonville game Davis played 19 snaps, mostly to block. Sanders played almost every snap. Davis was frustrated with his usage last year according to Allen.

Edited June 30, 2022 by Buffalo_Stampede

[Buffalo_Stampede]

26 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

Their love of a quality 8 man rotation on the defensive line results in them patching holes at other positions…. It’s what they “believe in” and are fine with sacrificing offense in that process… hope it doesn’t blow up in their face… McDermott might have to develop a “growth mindset” and move on from the 8 man rotation if it does.

They didn’t really sacrifice. In terms of cap they could’ve signed almost any OG they wanted this offseason besides Scherff, Cappa, and Tomlinson. Saffold had the 4th highest cap hit n 2022 for UFA OGs. So what people are saying is Bean signed the wrong OG. Between Bates and Saffold they did spend on OG. So the argument is they spent poorly of your not satisfied with Saffold and Bates.

Edited June 30, 2022 by Buffalo_Stampede

[SCBills]

12 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

The Bills defense gave up 36 points in regulation to the Chiefs in the divisional game loss........42  in OT.......with 2 extra possessions than the Bills due to some coin luck......without Tre White.

 

The prior year they gave up 38 to the Chiefs in the AFCCG with Tre White.

 

The facts of the situation don't support the idea that Tre White was "TRULY MISSED".

 

Could he have helped?   Maybe........but the issue was Mahomes was keeping drives alive with his feet.........that's not a CB problem......NO corner in the league can cover as long as was being required.

 

In the process of Mahomes keeping drive after drive alive due to the inability of the Bills pass rush to finish....... the defense got totally exhausted and the last 3 Chiefs scores were mostly due to defensive fatigue.

 

Good point.  This is why, despite meh results, Beane has been obsessive in addressing DL.   His priorities are absolutely in the right place.  

 

You can have a great secondary, which we have.. doesn't matter much against elite offenses if the DL can't finish.  

 

You can have good pass defense linebackers, which we have... doesn't matter much against elite offenses if the DL can't finish. 

 

The 2nd and 3rd level are great to have, and absolutely can be the difference in some games.. but at the end of the day, the game is decided by QB's and in the trenches.  

 

I expect our LB's and Secondary to look absolutely filthy this year, because this DL has elite potential.  The DT rotation, in both talent and depth, is one of the best in the NFL and if any of the young pass rushers make a jump... watch out.