Can we talk about Tremaine Edmunds?

[eball]

45 minutes ago, Ethan in Portland said:

and is just as mediocre as he has been

Sometimes I wonder if you guys watch any other football teams. Edmunds is a “mediocre” player?

 

smh…

[Shaw66]

3 hours ago, eball said:

Bills fans will always need a whipping boy, no matter how good or how bad the team is.

 

My own belief is that Edmunds has many more responsibilities in the Bills' defense than those "traditionally" associated with a MLB.  I don't study the games enough to comment on what others say about his "lack of instincts" but what I see is an athletic, disruptive player who clearly impacts what the opposing offense is trying to do.

 

Edmunds being in the right position to force a QB to throw a pass just slightly differently than he wanted to, resulting in an incompletion, tipped ball, or INT doesn't show up on the stat sheet.  I've heard players talk about his enormous "presence" that makes teams have to plan around him.

 

I have not once heard McD or Frazier make the comment "Tremaine needs to make more plays."  They've said that about lots of other young defenders.

 

Some want a thumping MLB who stuffs the run.  That ain't Edmunds and never will be.  Continuing to hope he becomes that is an exercise in futility.

 

I tend to agree with this, but it doesn't give me a lot of comfort.  

 

Of course, we haven't heard McBeane say "he needs to make more plays."   They don't criticize their players in public.   

 

I'd love to hear what McDermott and Frazier tell him privately. 

 

I agree he probably has more and different responsibilities than the traditional MLB, but we don't really know that.   I often think that we fans misunderstand his job, just as many people misunderstood what Star was supposed to be doing.   But none of us really knows.

 

For me, I'm positive about Edmunds because (1) the most important positions are the positions closest to the ball, (2) the Bills keep playing him in an important position, and (3) it's hard to have the best defense in the league with an underperformer at an important position.   Still, I have no idea what they are going to do about keeping him.   I agree he's almost certainly more important than Poyer, and if I could pay only one, I'd pay Tremaine.  

 

 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

5 minutes ago, eball said:

Sometimes I wonder if you guys watch any other football teams. Edmunds is a “mediocre” player?

 

smh…

I think it’s just the lack of playmaking. The negative plays and the big plays stand out. We only focus on the negative with Edmunds because there are very few big plays.

 

On every big run we give up you can see Poyer or Hyde taking a terrible angle. We just don’t talk much about it because they make so many big plays.

[SCBills]

2 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I tend to agree with this, but it doesn't give me a lot of comfort.  

 

Of course, we haven't heard McBeane say "he needs to make more plays."   They don't criticize their players in public.   

 

I'd love to hear what McDermott and Frazier tell him privately. 

 

I agree he probably has more and different responsibilities than the traditional MLB, but we don't really know that.   I often think that we fans misunderstand his job, just as many people misunderstood what Star was supposed to be doing.   But none of us really knows.

 

For me, I'm positive about Edmunds because (1) the most important positions are the positions closest to the ball, (2) the Bills keep playing him in an important position, and (3) it's hard to have the best defense in the league with an underperformer at an important position.   Still, I have no idea what they are going to do about keeping him.   I agree he's almost certainly more important than Poyer, and if I could pay only one, I'd pay Tremaine.  

 

 

 

I agree with a lot of what's said here, but do we really care about having "the best defense" with guys like Edmunds, Poyer and Hyde apparently having all these complex assignments, when they seem to destroy mediocre Offenses - only to struggle against anyone with an elite QB and/or power run game?

 

I'm confident we've addressed those issues with guys like Von Miller, DaQuan Jones, Kaiir Elam etc., but if the other guys are so valuable, we shouldn't be going into yet another offseason where we needed to invest so heavily on defense, no?

[Buffalo_Stampede]

7 minutes ago, SCBills said:

 

I agree with a lot of what's said here, but do we really care about having "the best defense" with guys like Edmunds, Poyer and Hyde apparently having all these complex assignments, when they seem to destroy mediocre Offenses - only to struggle against anyone with an elite QB and/or power run game?

 

I'm confident we've addressed those issues with guys like Von Miller, DaQuan Jones, Kaiir Elam etc., but if the other guys are so valuable, we shouldn't be going into yet another offseason where we needed to invest so heavily on defense, no?

I think our defense struggles vs top QBs because top QBs beat many good defenses but also we lack difference makers on defense. That’s why they spent on Miller.

 

They love a DL rotation of 8 players. They were losing Hughes, Addison, Star, and Phillips. It’s obvious why they added all the DL they did.

 

On offense they didn’t replace Sanders. Sanders split time with Gabriel Davis. So it’s obvious why they didn’t feel the need to spend top assets to replace Sanders.

 

 

[The Jokeman]

On 4/26/2022 at 6:22 PM, Dopey said:

Everyone seems to forget it was Milano that gave up the TD to Kelsey in that playoff loss, not Edmunds.  Our loss to NE was a long run given up by Hyde and....yep, Milano. Replay that particular play and watch Milano from the snap to the cutback. WTH was he doing? That was not on Edmunds. 

I tend to remember Levi Wallace the one getting beat by Kelce. 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

Just now, The Jokeman said:

I tend to remember Levi Wallace the one getting beat by Kelce. 

It was Milano. Wallace got toasted by Hill. Poyer and Hyde took bad angles vs Hill as well. Poyer took a bad angle vs Hardman on his rushing TD.

 

 

[SCBills]

15 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

I think our defense struggles vs top QBs because top QBs beat many good defenses but also we lack difference makers on defense. That’s why they spent on Miller.

 

They love a DL rotation of 8 players. They were losing Hughes, Addison, Star, and Phillips. It’s obvious why they added all the DL they did.

 

On offense they didn’t replace Sanders. Sanders split time with Gabriel Davis. So it’s obvious why they didn’t feel the need to spend top assets to replace Sanders.

 

 

Agreed.. but we are, as an organization, thinking about paying Poyer and Edmunds, but we can also agree that they aren’t difference makers in big games..

 

To me, they are luxuries.  I think Edmunds can become a difference maker, but - so far - a difference maker, he is not. 

Im just pointing out that we can talk about all the intricacies of what our Safeties do, what Edmunds may do etc., all we want …. However we still needed a RD1 CB and to invest heavy in an elite pass rusher because those guys aren’t difference makers when it matters.  
 

 

Edited June 29, 2022 by SCBills

[Buffalo_Stampede]

1 minute ago, SCBills said:

Agreed.. but we are, as an organization, thinking about paying Poyer and Edmunds, but we can also agree that they aren’t difference makers in big games..

 

To me, they are luxuries.  I think Edmunds can become a difference maker, but - so far - a difference maker, he is not. 

Im just pointing out that we can talk about all the intricacies of what our Safeties do, what Edmunds may do etc., all we want …. However we still needed a RD1 CB and to invest heavy in an elite pass rusher because those guys aren’t difference makers. 

We needed a CB2 because it was the only position we didn’t have a clear starter. 
 

We needed DL because of the players we lost. We signed an elite pass rusher to win a Super Bowl.

[SCBills]

1 minute ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

We needed a CB2 because it was the only position we didn’t have a clear starter. 
 

We needed DL because of the players we lost. We signed an elite pass rusher to win a Super Bowl.

 

Agreed.  Because you typically need high level play from pass rushers and cornerbacks to win rings.  Not so much with safeties and linebackers. 

 

That's all I'm saying.  If Edmunds balls out, let's pay him..  but he and Poyer should be last on the pecking order if Knox, Oliver and Davis also ball out. 

[newcam2012]

8 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Edmunds is a tough evaluation. He’s made very few plays over his career. I compare him to a game manager QB. Very safe and dependable. You said it, not many ILBs that have started as many games and played as many snaps over 4 years. That definitely is a plus especially when Milano struggled to stay healthy.
 

That said, I don’t think they’ll sign him unless they decide to walk away from Poyer. I don’t think they can sign Poyer, Oliver, and Edmunds.

Let him play for the 12 million this year. See if he can finally be an impact, consistent, and dependable player. If he continues to play average then it's time to move on. 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

Just now, SCBills said:

 

Agreed.  Because you typically need high level play from pass rushers and cornerbacks to win rings.  Not so much with safeties and linebackers. 

 

That's all I'm saying.  If Edmunds balls out, let's pay him..  but he and Poyer should be last on the pecking order if Knox, Oliver and Davis also ball out. 

I don’t even think I’ve seen an Edmunds supporter say he deserves a huge contract. Maybe I missed it. To be honest I don’t see anyone clamoring to re-sign Edmunds, Oliver, Poyer, or Knox. We’re all kind of waiting to see what happens. I think we’d love to sign them but I think we all believe there’s something missing.

 

Basically I don’t think losing any of these players in UFA significantly affects the Buffalo Bills. If lost during the season yeah, but I think if either player walked in the offseason they can be replaced with cheaper options. The one player I feel has potential to go higher is Knox. If Knox takes another step then replacing him would be difficult.

 

 

[BarleyNY]

8 minutes ago, SCBills said:

 

Agreed.  Because you typically need high level play from pass rushers and cornerbacks to win rings.  Not so much with safeties and linebackers. 

 

That's all I'm saying.  If Edmunds balls out, let's pay him..  but he and Poyer should be last on the pecking order if Knox, Oliver and Davis also ball out. 

A special off-the-ball LB can make a very valuable impact on a defense.  The Luke Keuchley’s of the world are certainly worth paying.  The problem is that there are very few of those kinds of players and Edmunds is not one of them.

[SCBills]

4 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

I don’t even think I’ve seen an Edmunds supporter say he deserves a huge contract. Maybe I missed it. To be honest I don’t see anyone clamoring to re-sign Edmunds, Oliver, Poyer, or Knox. We’re all kind of waiting to see what happens. I think we’d love to sign them but I think we all believe there’s something missing.

 

Basically I don’t think losing any of these players in UFA significantly affects the Buffalo Bills. If lost during the season yeah, but I think if either player walked in the offseason they can be replaced with cheaper options. The one player I feel has potential to go higher is Knox. If Knox takes another step then replacing him would be difficult.

 

 

 

I'd be willing to extend Knox right now.  I think he's got elite potential that will be realized and would be willing to take the gamble this offseason if it shaves a couple mil per year off his AAV.  

 

Oliver, I'm close but in wait and see mode.  

 

Edmunds I'm not close, but hoping to have my mind changed. 

 

Poyer, I'm pretty much indifferent to.  

[Shaw66]

1 hour ago, SCBills said:

 

I agree with a lot of what's said here, but do we really care about having "the best defense" with guys like Edmunds, Poyer and Hyde apparently having all these complex assignments, when they seem to destroy mediocre Offenses - only to struggle against anyone with an elite QB and/or power run game?

 

I'm confident we've addressed those issues with guys like Von Miller, DaQuan Jones, Kaiir Elam etc., but if the other guys are so valuable, we shouldn't be going into yet another offseason where we needed to invest so heavily on defense, no?

This is the really important question.   I've never known how to put it.   It's like they had the best defense in the league and underperformed at crunch time against the best offenses.  

 

First, I don't know if that's really true.  I think we tend to forget the big plays they make and remember the big plays they didn't make, like against KC.   NO defense makes all the big plays, and it would be interesting to somehow see the Bills' big-play stop ratio compared to other good defenses.   For example, and I think there are a lot of examples like this, at the end of regulation against the Texans in the playoffs, down three, the Bills offense stalled and it looked like the game was over.   The defense went three and out, and Josh manufactured a drive to tie it.   Big, big stop by the defense.   I just don't know if the Bills are any worse or better than other teams in this big stop category.  

 

Second, I think the model that McDermott is pursuing is to have a statistically great defense - like last season, AND have a few playmakers who deliver big plays.   I think that is a good way to describe Belichick's defense through all his winning seasons.   He always seemed to have a team full of defenders who did their job, plus one or two stars, a Richard Seymour or that great corner before Gilmore.  That certainly seems to be what Beane went after in Miller and Elam and Daquan Jones and maybe even Jordan Phillips.  They're all guys who are something more than do-your-job guys.   The Bills were never going to get more big-play production out of their veteran DEs, and certainly Miller and maybe Jones or Phillips can change that.  

 

In that regard, I think Beane said in a presser that the Bills got the pressure they wanted last season - their consistent pass-rush pressure was a big contributor in the defense's great stats against the pass.   But he said something like this:  At the end of the game, we need guys to "get home."   

 

If you assume all that is correct, and Beane got the right guys, the question then comes back to Edmunds.   Essentially, going after Miller says the Bills don't expect Edmunds, or anyone else on the roster, to emerge as a standout defender (except maybe Groot).  And if that's true, then Edmunds is fine for now, while he's under contract, but when it's time for a new deal, does it make sense to pay premium dollars for someone who is not going to be your crunch-time big play guy?   My answer to that is simple - and it's the same thing we talk about here over and over:

 

Is Edmunds such a freak, is he just so good at occupying space, that he makes everyone around him better, even though he isn't a big-play guy?   If he is, pay him.   If not, he's just another player, and if he can get big money someplace else, well, McDermott will figure out how to get along without him.   If I had to guess, I'd say he's a freak and they'll keep him. 

58 minutes ago, SCBills said:

Poyer, I'm pretty much indifferent to.  

I'm interested that so many people, including me, are of this opinion.   Break up what may be the best safety tandem in the league?   For me, it's a measure of how much confidence I have in McDermott.  My guess is that McD has told Beane not to break the bank on Poyer - get him at a price that still lets Beane keep guys who are really important; otherwise, McD's got guys waiting in the wings to move up and take over.  

[Buffalo_Stampede]

18 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

This is the really important question.   I've never known how to put it.   It's like they had the best defense in the league and underperformed at crunch time against the best offenses.  

 

First, I don't know if that's really true.  I think we tend to forget the big plays they make and remember the big plays they didn't make, like against KC.   NO defense makes all the big plays, and it would be interesting to somehow see the Bills' big-play stop ratio compared to other good defenses.   For example, and I think there are a lot of examples like this, at the end of regulation against the Texans in the playoffs, down three, the Bills offense stalled and it looked like the game was over.   The defense went three and out, and Josh manufactured a drive to tie it.   Big, big stop by the defense.   I just don't know if the Bills are any worse or better than other teams in this big stop category.  

 

Second, I think the model that McDermott is pursuing is to have a statistically great defense - like last season, AND have a few playmakers who deliver big plays.   I think that is a good way to describe Belichick's defense through all his winning seasons.   He always seemed to have a team full of defenders who did their job, plus one or two stars, a Richard Seymour or that great corner before Gilmore.  That certainly seems to be what Beane went after in Miller and Elam and Daquan Jones and maybe even Jordan Phillips.  They're all guys who are something more than do-your-job guys.   The Bills were never going to get more big-play production out of their veteran DEs, and certainly Miller and maybe Jones or Phillips can change that.  

 

In that regard, I think Beane said in a presser that the Bills got the pressure they wanted last season - their consistent pass-rush pressure was a big contributor in the defense's great stats against the pass.   But he said something like this:  At the end of the game, we need guys to "get home."   

 

If you assume all that is correct, and Beane got the right guys, the question then comes back to Edmunds.   Essentially, going after Miller says the Bills don't expect Edmunds, or anyone else on the roster, to emerge as a standout defender (except maybe Groot).  And if that's true, then Edmunds is fine for now, while he's under contract, but when it's time for a new deal, does it make sense to pay premium dollars for someone who is not going to be your crunch-time big play guy?   My answer to that is simple - and it's the same thing we talk about here over and over:

 

Is Edmunds such a freak, is he just so good at occupying space, that he makes everyone around him better, even though he isn't a big-play guy?   If he is, pay him.   If not, he's just another player, and if he can get big money someplace else, well, McDermott will figure out how to get along without him.   If I had to guess, I'd say he's a freak and they'll keep him. 

I'm interested that so many people, including me, are of this opinion.   Break up what may be the best safety tandem in the league?   For me, it's a measure of how much confidence I have in McDermott.  My guess is that McD has told Beane not to break the bank on Poyer - get him at a price that still lets Beane keep guys who are really important; otherwise, McD's got guys waiting in the wings to move up and take over.  

We’ve rarely seen the defense without Poyer, Hyde, and Edmunds. Basically the 3 captains of the defense never come off the field or miss games. 
 

Did we see a difference at all without Tre White? Honestly no. White is arguably the best player on defense but there was no difference. I don’t know what that means. 

[Shaw66]

23 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

We’ve rarely seen the defense without Poyer, Hyde, and Edmunds. Basically the 3 captains of the defense never come off the field or miss games. 
 

Did we see a difference at all without Tre White? Honestly no. White is arguably the best player on defense but there was no difference. I don’t know what that means. 

That's an interesting observation.  Of the three, I've always thought Hyde was the most valuable.  

 

I think Hamlin is Poyer's replacement.  Apparently he's a hitter and a coach-on-the-field type player.   

 

It's so interesting you say that about White.  In some ways he's underutilized in the defense, because he can do more than just cover.   Other teams would use him as a true-shut down guy - the Bills think they get more out of him, even if we don't see him, when he plays in the system.   I've suggest before that he may become a safety someday, if he can hold up in the run game.  

 

Why did they continue to do well without White?   It's Frazier and McD, man.   Next man, tweak the assignments, dial up the disguises, keep up the pressure from the front four.  

 

Trade Elam for Wallace?   All day, every day?

 

Miller for Hughes?  Love you, Jerry, but seriously?

 

Addison is the only guy who wasn't replaced with an obvious upgrade, but last year's rookie DEs plus Shaq are solid substitutes for Mario, maybe better.  

 

It's a great collection of players.  

 

 

[MJS]

I guess I am not too concerned either way. If the Bills sign him, they must think he is doing a good job. If they don't, they may think he is too expensive or want an upgrade. Fine.

 

Either way, the Bills are a really good team. This team's fate rests on other shoulders, mostly Josh Allen's.

Edited June 30, 2022 by MJS

[eball]

41 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

Bills are a SB contender with or without Edmunds… he’s a solid MLB, but he doesn’t move the needle in the W/L column what’s so ever…..compared to the pass rushers, wide outs and obviously QB who do…. Which is why I suggested my priority would be resigning Knox/Oliver before Edmunds.

 

You suggested the the D's level of play would not suffer with Klein replacing Edmunds.  Perhaps for a game or two, but over the long haul it would negatively impact them (see: Tre White).  Edmunds is one of the players on the Bills' defense opponents actually game plan around.  For you to say he "doesn't move the needle" tells me you don't really understand what's going on out there.

 

I get it, he doesn't have a lot of sacks, forced fumbles, or "splash plays" everyone wants to see, but I guarantee he affects what offenses are doing against Buffalo far more than you know.

 

You can talk about "prioritizing" who to re-sign all you want, but implying that Edmunds leaving is one big nothing burger isn't very intuitive.

 

[LeGOATski]

I'd take Tremaine Edmunds home to meet my parents.