Can we talk about Tremaine Edmunds?

[delirious]

1 hour ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Edmunds is a tough evaluation. He’s made very few plays over his career. I compare him to a game manager QB. Very safe and dependable. You said it, not many ILBs that have started as many games and played as many snaps over 4 years. That definitely is a plus especially when Milano struggled to stay healthy.
 

That said, I don’t think they’ll sign him unless they decide to walk away from Poyer. I don’t think they can sign Poyer, Oliver, and Edmunds.

 

I've made my thoughts known on Edmunds plenty of times. Even though I come across as a Edmunds hater (I just dislike all the mental gymnastics done for him lol), I'd much rather the Bills re-sign him and big Ed (preferably after big Ed) than keep Poyer. 

 

The Bills have some of the best db coaching in the league.

[H2o]

8 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

There’s also this…

 

 

My Pop used to tell me "a blind crow gets a piece of corn every once in a while." If you watch Edmunds, like we all do, then for every one of these TFL's he's made against the run he has also guessed the wrong gap three times leaving an open lane when he could have made a bigtime play. Then he also has run directly into blockers getting himself caught up in the wash four times. 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

16 minutes ago, H2o said:

My Pop used to tell me "a blind crow gets a piece of corn every once in a while." If you watch Edmunds, like we all do, then for every one of these TFL's he's made against the run he has also guessed the wrong gap three times leaving an open lane when he could have made a bigtime play. Then he also has run directly into blockers getting himself caught up in the wash four times. 

I really doubt he guesses the wrong gap. He’s more indecisive at times. Slow to react. I think that’s his conservative play. The Bills aren’t a bad defense so we’re talking very few plays the defense gets beat. Those are what we focus on.

 

Everyone on the defense has breakdowns in assignments at times. The Bills aren’t built to stop the run so at times they get gashed. We’re an undersized nickel based defense for the majority of snaps. 

For as long as I’ve been on Bills message boards the MLB has been nearly as discussed as QB. We’re looking for that alpha dog leader at MLB and we haven’t found him yet.

 

[without a drought]

I was starting to worry about the lack of Edmunds threads lately. 

[eball]

Bills fans will always need a whipping boy, no matter how good or how bad the team is.

 

My own belief is that Edmunds has many more responsibilities in the Bills' defense than those "traditionally" associated with a MLB.  I don't study the games enough to comment on what others say about his "lack of instincts" but what I see is an athletic, disruptive player who clearly impacts what the opposing offense is trying to do.

 

Edmunds being in the right position to force a QB to throw a pass just slightly differently than he wanted to, resulting in an incompletion, tipped ball, or INT doesn't show up on the stat sheet.  I've heard players talk about his enormous "presence" that makes teams have to plan around him.

 

I have not once heard McD or Frazier make the comment "Tremaine needs to make more plays."  They've said that about lots of other young defenders.

 

Some want a thumping MLB who stuffs the run.  That ain't Edmunds and never will be.  Continuing to hope he becomes that is an exercise in futility.

 

[eball]

Just now, ScottLaw said:

I’m pretty sure Frazier said this just a few weeks ago…. 

 

If he did I missed it, sorry.

 

[H2o]

1 hour ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

I really doubt he guesses the wrong gap. He’s more indecisive at times. Slow to react. I think that’s his conservative play. The Bills aren’t a bad defense so we’re talking very few plays the defense gets beat. Those are what we focus on.

 

Everyone on the defense has breakdowns in assignments at times. The Bills aren’t built to stop the run so at times they get gashed. We’re an undersized nickel based defense for the majority of snaps. 

For as long as I’ve been on Bills message boards the MLB has been nearly as discussed as QB. We’re looking for that alpha dog leader at MLB and we haven’t found him yet.

 

The play is unfolding in front of him and he chooses to shoot through a gap that leaves him completely out of position, i.e. guessing the wrong gap. There have been multiple times as well where he has been in place to make a play, but either doesn't see the ball carrier right there or is looking for something else. He also has a tendency to take some really bad angles 4 years in. I'm not saying his entire game is bad, because he does make some plays, but he also leaves a lot of plays he could/should have made on the field. A lot of the mistakes he makes are the same ones he made as a rookie. I hope the revamped DL makes a difference for him, but I'm not handing the guy a big contract if I'm our FO. He's decent, but not spectacular and you don't pay decent LB's $15M-$18M per season. You can see some examples of what you'll find from Edmunds, and what I'm talking about, on a weekly basis below. 

 

 

[BADOLBILZ]

7 hours ago, Nelius said:

 

So then that's kind of a thing then right? Fans are going to hate it but Edmunds value may come from his dependability/durability. Like a Kirby Puckett / Gary Payton type. Maybe even an oversized London Fletcher to put it back in the NFL realm...although Fletcher had twice as many TFL's by his third season lol

 

Availability is definitely his thing.

 

He's a top half of the NFL starting middle/inside LB........higher than top half in the AFC because there aren't many in the AFC, which is why Edmunds has gotten his Pro Bowl nods.

 

He's probably the most physically talented of any such player in the NFL though(unless you consider Micah Parsons an ILB)..........teams don't waste physical traits like that at a devalued position like MLB/ILB usually...........nor do smart agents let guys in pass rusher frames play MLB/ILB.        

 

That's why the gap between his physical talent and the instincts needed to be great at the position is so stark.

 

My comp for him is Derrick Henry..........it makes little sense that either ended up at their positions instead of rushing the passer.

 

But Henry turned into a superstar.

 

Hopefully the light comes on for Edmunds this year like it did deeper into Demario Davis career, for example.

 

 For all the people who blame the divisional loss to the Chiefs on pass rush and coaching,  maybe the biggest difference between what the Bengals were able to do to rally and escape in Arrowhead was that their instinctive MLB Logan Wilson played a great game against Mahomes in pass coverage.    We've just come to accept that Mahomes owns Edmunds and that it's just not possible for him to impact a game against Mahomes from that position,  but it's been proven otherwise.

 

 

Edited June 29, 2022 by BADOLBILZ

[SCBills]

3 minutes ago, eball said:

 

If he did I missed it, sorry.

 

 

He did.  it was noticeable because that's the first time Frazier has mentioned that re: Edmunds.  

 

I don't know that we want a run thumping LB.. as those guys are almost getting phased out of the modern NFL.  We just want him to be a bit better against the run, and to make a few more splash plays, if he wants to be a guy we dedicate some precious cap space to with guys like Poyer, Knox, Oliver and Davis all up or on deck. 

 

 

Edited June 29, 2022 by SCBills

[White Linen]

5 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Edmunds is a tough evaluation. He’s made very few plays over his career. I compare him to a game manager QB. Very safe and dependable. You said it, not many ILBs that have started as many games and played as many snaps over 4 years. That definitely is a plus especially when Milano struggled to stay healthy.
 

That said, I don’t think they’ll sign him unless they decide to walk away from Poyer. I don’t think they can sign Poyer, Oliver, and Edmunds.

 

If Davis emerges as a top end #2, then they definitely can't sign all of them if he's included.

[eball]

1 hour ago, ScottLaw said:

I’m pretty sure Frazier said this just a few weeks ago…. 

 

1 hour ago, SCBills said:

 

He did.  it was noticeable because that's the first time Frazier has mentioned that re: Edmunds.  

 

I don't know that we want a run thumping LB.. as those guys are almost getting phased out of the modern NFL.  We just want him to be a bit better against the run, and to make a few more splash plays, if he wants to be a guy we dedicate some precious cap space to with guys like Poyer, Knox, Oliver and Davis all up or on deck. 

 

 

 

Ok, I found the article.  Here's the entirety of Frazier's comments:

 

------------

 

“In all of our conversations, it's all about just being himself and playing on a high level, like he always does, and not focus it on the contract part of it, but just going out of control and what you can control,” Frazier said. “He's been a tremendous player for us. He makes a lot of plays. He leads our defense.”

In 15 games last season, Edmunds had 108 tackles – seven for loss – and one interception. Frazier sees the natural next step for the former first-round pick.

“I think – and he knows this – you want more splash plays,” Frazier said. “You want those big plays in ball games. That play he made against the Texans, the interception he came up with, that was a huge play in that ballgame. It really helped propel us along the way to a really good performance. And more plays like that.”

 

------------

 

So now we have some context.  I think my original point still stands.  Yes, of course, the Bills are hoping Tremaine makes more of the game-changing plays but it is clear they don't believe he has been a "disappointment" thus far in his career.

 

 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

2 hours ago, H2o said:

The play is unfolding in front of him and he chooses to shoot through a gap that leaves him completely out of position, i.e. guessing the wrong gap. There have been multiple times as well where he has been in place to make a play, but either doesn't see the ball carrier right there or is looking for something else. He also has a tendency to take some really bad angles 4 years in. I'm not saying his entire game is bad, because he does make some plays, but he also leaves a lot of plays he could/should have made on the field. A lot of the mistakes he makes are the same ones he made as a rookie. I hope the revamped DL makes a difference for him, but I'm not handing the guy a big contract if I'm our FO. He's decent, but not spectacular and you don't pay decent LB's $15M-$18M per season. You can see some examples of what you'll find from Edmunds, and what I'm talking about, on a weekly basis below. 

 

 

As I said there are plays he’s out of position. You don’t have to show examples, I’ve seen them all. There are plays other players are out of position as well. There are very few compared to the league though. The defense doesn’t get beat often. 
 

The question with Edmunds is asking price. I think he’s a player that will get top LB money on the open market. I remember when Poz was a free agent and we were shocked at the money he got. I think they’re similar players. 

 

I don’t think the Bills will re-sign Edmunds for this reason. He’ll get a lot more on the open market.
 

 

Edited June 29, 2022 by Buffalo_Stampede

[NewEra]

10 hours ago, Nelius said:

 

So then that's kind of a thing then right? Fans are going to hate it but Edmunds value may come from his dependability/durability. Like a Kirby Puckett / Gary Payton type. Maybe even an oversized London Fletcher to put it back in the NFL realm...although Fletcher had twice as many TFL's by his third season lol

Correct.  His physical being and his availability are far more valuable than his LB ability at the moment.  If his Lb ability can catch up and even the score, he’ll probably be all-pro. 

Edited June 29, 2022 by NewEra

[Ethan in Cleveland]

2 hours ago, eball said:

Bills fans will always need a whipping boy, no matter how good or how bad the team is.

 

My own belief is that Edmunds has many more responsibilities in the Bills' defense than those "traditionally" associated with a MLB.  I don't study the games enough to comment on what others say about his "lack of instincts" but what I see is an athletic, disruptive player who clearly impacts what the opposing offense is trying to do.

 

Edmunds being in the right position to force a QB to throw a pass just slightly differently than he wanted to, resulting in an incompletion, tipped ball, or INT doesn't show up on the stat sheet.  I've heard players talk about his enormous "presence" that makes teams have to plan around him.

 

I have not once heard McD or Frazier make the comment "Tremaine needs to make more plays."  They've said that about lots of other young defenders.

 

Some want a thumping MLB who stuffs the run.  That ain't Edmunds and never will be.  Continuing to hope he becomes that is an exercise in futility.

 

It's more than just being a target for the fans. He is in a contract year and it is probably the most difficult decision Beane will face in the next 12 months.  So it is a worthy topic of discussion.

Ideally Edmunds plays better and you sign him to an extension and the Bills have an anchor on defense for the next 5 years. 

That said if he is extended at a high price and is just as mediocre as he has been then he is an anchor on the team and the salary cap for the next several years. 

 

See what I did there? Used anchor to mean the opposite ...

[SCBills]

19 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

As I said there are plays he’s out of position. You don’t have to show examples, I’ve seen them all. There are plays other players are out of position as well. There are very few compared to the league though. The defense doesn’t get beat often. 
 

The question with Edmunds is asking price. I think he’s a player that will get top LB money on the open market. I remember when Poz was a free agent and we were shocked at the money he got. I think they’re similar players. 

 

I don’t think the Bills will re-sign Edmunds for this reason. He’ll get a lot more on the open market.
 

 

 

This is the issue.  We're not evaluating Edmunds as a player in a vacuum.. We're evaluating him as a player on a team where if he gets paid, we may lose someone else.  

 

I do think he does some great things in the passing defense that go unnoticed with fans, but his age, potential and high likelihood of having a great year behind a strong DL means we have to quantify what he means to this team with what his price will be.  

 

That price will likely be high on the open market.  

 

He's a good player.  Potential to be great.  However, is he worth losing Knox over?  Losing Oliver?  Maybe we can get everyone in under the cap and Beane works his magic, but who knows what happens with Poyer and Gabriel Davis is also coming up, potentially, as early as next offseason.  

 

If he blows up this year.. Awesome.. you don't really get burned backloading creative contracts with young guys playing at a high level.  However, we can't be having these same questions and still pay him what he will likely command.

 

 

 

Edited June 29, 2022 by SCBills

[Buffalo_Stampede]

14 minutes ago, SCBills said:

 

This is the issue.  We're not evaluating Edmunds as a player in a vacuum.. We're evaluating him as a player on a team where if he gets paid, we may lose someone else.  

 

I do think he does some great things in the passing defense that go unnoticed with fans, but his age, potential and high likelihood of having a great year behind a strong DL means we have to quantify what he means to this team with what his price will be.  

 

That price will likely be high on the open market.  

 

He's a good player.  Potential to be great.  However, is he worth losing Knox over?  Losing Oliver?  Maybe we can get everyone in under the cap and Beane works his magic, but who knows what happens with Poyer and Gabriel Davis is also coming up, potentially, as early as next offseason.  

 

If he blows up this year.. Awesome.. you don't really get burned backloading creative contracts with young guys playing at a high level.  However, we can't be having these same questions and still pay him what he will likely command.

 

 

 

It’ll be interesting to see what happens. Technically they could keep all those players by just pushing cap into the future. Edmunds age could be a huge factor because you can push cap pretty far back and not really worry about a drop in play. He’s got 2 decent contracts left in his career. Oliver as well. So maybe sign them to low cap hits early on with the belief they’ll be Bills for life. Push the cap down the road.

Edited June 29, 2022 by Buffalo_Stampede

[SCBills]

Just now, ScottLaw said:

The answer to the question, for me at least, is an emphatic no… prioritize paying the dynamic pass catchers and pass rushers over a MLB. No doubt. 

 

As of right now, I agree.  I'd feel differently about paying a MLB if he was a unicorn..  which is what we were/are hoping he is..  However, so far he's been a slightly above average MLB.  

 

To sign everyone, we need to be absolutely certain they are worth creatively structuring long term contracts that coincide with a growing cap.  If we aren't certain, we have to let them walk or try to get them in on a shorter term/front-loaded or evenly-loaded contract, which means less flexibility in getting other guys in under the cap.  

 

I'm not paying Edmunds if it means losing Knox, Oliver or Davis, and I'm certainly not comfortable backloading a contract on a guy who hasn't shown he's worth top of the line MLB money that would require a creative contract from us given other priorities also coming due. 

[SCBills]

12 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

It’ll be interesting to see what happens. Technically they could keep all those players by just pushing cap into the future. Edmunds age could be a huge factor because you can push cap pretty far back and not really worry about a drop in play. He’s got 2 decent contracts left in his career. Oliver as well. So maybe sign them to low cap hits early on with the belief they’ll be Bills for life. Push the cap down the road.

 

I certainly have no issue paying him if he balls out this year.  We've seen how well the the large contracts Beane has handed out are aging.  As long as you bet big on the right guys, it works out in the end.  

 

When you lose that bet, that's when you start running into cap issues.  As of now, I'm ready to bet on Knox.  I'm close on Oliver.  I have no reason to think I won't be ready to pay Davis after this season (if it comes to that with how WR's are wanting to get paid heading into their final contract year). 

 

..Edmunds is the only guy I'm iffy on.  

 

Edited June 29, 2022 by SCBills

[eball]

4 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

I don’t think Edmunds moves the needle for this team one bit… at least not right now…. Case in point when Klein filled in for him in 2020… the team is hurting more without Knox/Oliver/Davis in the lineup than it is Edmunds IMO.

 

Wow.  Just wow.  Literally, the Bills' opponents consistently talk about how his presence affects what they do.

 

Is he a great run stopper?  At this point, no.  But your flair for the dramatic statement often leaves you looking a bit foolish.

 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

9 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

I don’t think Edmunds moves the needle for this team one bit… at least not right now…. Case in point when Klein filled in for him in 2020… the team is hurting more without Knox/Oliver/Davis in the lineup than it is Edmunds IMO.

Klein didn’t fill in for Edmunds he filled in for Milano. Edmunds played hurt all year. Miami nearly beat the Bills week 2 2020 without Edmunds. We hated Klein that game. Klein got better when he replaced Milano on the outside. Something about that position seems to get open to make plays in this defense.