Name some good outside cornerbacks with sub 30 inch arms.

[GunnerBill]

9 hours ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

 

Exactly my point. One negative trait doesn't discount everything. It's fair to have a concern about a prospects measurements. But it's unfair to discount 3 years of high level production and everything else on a scouting report for one thing. Doubly unfair to compare him to players that entered the league with a fraction of his expectations to begin with.

 

It is not the only concern on the scouting report. 

[Motorin']

3 hours ago, Shake_My_Head said:

And away you go...

 

It's another way of saying you're missing the forrest for the trees. 

 

Here's what you need to do. You need to determine a valid metric of NFL success and apply it to each 10th percentile of arm length in order to see if there's a statistically significant correlation between arm length and success. 

 

But then there's always outliers, i.e. the individual tree in the forrest. 

 

How many 11th percentile arm length CB's are over 5' 11"? What percentile height is Trent McDuffie among the 11th percentile arm length? What percentile speed? What percentile RAS? 

 

You're fixated on one specific metric to the exclusion of all other variables. Kind of like those who only focused on Josh Allen's completion percentage at WY to the exclusion of his actual play on the field. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 27, 2022 by Motorin'

[NewEra]

1 hour ago, Motorin' said:

 

It's another way of saying you're missing the forrest for the trees. 

 

Here's what you need to do. You need to determine a valid metric of NFL success and apply it to each 10th percentile of arm length in order to see if there's a statistically significant correlation between arm length and success. 

 

But then there's always outliers, i.e. the individual tree in the forrest. 

 

How many 11th percentile arm length CB's are over 5' 11"? What percentile height is Trent McDuffie among the 11th percentile arm length? What percentile speed? What percentile RAS? 

 

You're fixated on one specific metric to the exclusion of all other variables. Kind of like those who only focused on Josh Allen's completion percentage at WY to the exclusion of his actual play on the field. 

 

 

 

 

 

It’s another way of proving to the board that your a mental midget.  You’re using ONE example to prove a point….while we have thousands of cornerback examples to prove a point.
 

Over half the world was wrong on Josh Allen.  His heart and determination >>> everything else. That’s not the case with everyone.  Certainly not short armed corners….as there’s been 2 good ones in 34 years.  

[Motorin']

7 minutes ago, NewEra said:

It’s another way of proving to the board that your a mental midget.  You’re using ONE example to prove a point….while we have thousands of cornerback examples to prove a point.
 

Over half the world was wrong on Josh Allen.  His heart and determination >>> everything else. That’s not the case with everyone.  Certainly not short armed corners….as there’s been 2 good ones in 34 years.  

 

 

Mental midget? Cool story. 

[NewEra]

2 minutes ago, Motorin' said:

 

 

Mental midget? Cool story. 

Apologies for using that term.  
 

You’re trying to discount thousands of cornerbacks worth of data….. and then using one qb to prove your point.  
 

please explain how this can make any sense to you.  Your previous explanations make no sense.  None.

[Motorin']

24 minutes ago, NewEra said:

Apologies for using that term.  
 

You’re trying to discount thousands of cornerbacks worth of data….. and then using one qb to prove your point.  
 

please explain how this can make any sense to you.  Your previous explanations make no sense.  None.

 

Apology accepted. 

 

You haven't provided a metric to measure success that can be applied to the data set other than a few screen shots of blurry pics I can't read on my phone. And just bc you can't pick names off the list and intuitively know if they had a good career or not doesn't mean your analysis is accurate. It may be, but it's incomplete. 

 

I also offered additional statistical analysis tools to determine co-occuring conditions to rule out application of your short armed rule. But you ignored that too. 

 

In any event, I'm taking about one specifc player. And you're claiming that the metric that is going to allow, for instance,  Dane Jackson to play outside corner successfully and prevent Trent McDuffie is 5/8ths of an inch. Ignoring that McDuffie's 4.44 speed makes up over 9 inches per second over Dane Jackson' 4.57 40...

 

Let's check back on this around this time next year and see if Trent McDuffie was unable to play in the league, or had to be switched to slot. 

Edited April 27, 2022 by Motorin'

[NewEra]

11 minutes ago, Motorin' said:

 

Apology accepted. 

 

You haven't provided a metric to measure success that can be applied to the data set other than a few screen shots of blurry pics I can't read on my phone. And just bc you can't pick names off the list and intuitively know if they had a good career or not doesn't mean your analysis is accurate. It may be, but it's incomplete. 

 

I also offered additional statistical analysis tools to determine co-occuring conditions to rule out application of your short armed rule. But you ignored that too. 

 

In any event, I'm taking about one specifc player. And you're claiming that the metric that is going to allow, for instance,  Dane Jackson to play outside corner successfully and prevent Trent McDuffie is 5/8ths of an inch. Ignoring that McDuffie's speed makes up about 2 inches per second over Dane Jacksons. 

 

Let's check back on this around this time next year and see if Trent McDuffie was unable to play in the league, or had to be switched to slot. 

Ok, so because I choose not to spend my entire day putting together data on a spreadsheet…..I’m wrong?  No.  You’re complicating this because I you don’t agree.  Not every debate has to be settled with a spreadsheet with years of information. 
 

 I have eyes….I can read names…. I know nfl players. With all the brain power on this site, we’ve come up with 2 players……come up with more if you care to dispute the evidence at hand….I asked a question and the site has answered:  Winfield and Hayward. Come up with more…..that’s what I asked. 

[Motorin']

11 minutes ago, NewEra said:

Ok, so because I choose not to spend my entire day putting together data on a spreadsheet…..I’m wrong?  No.  You’re complicating this because I you don’t agree.  Not every debate has to be settled with a spreadsheet with years of information. 
 

 I have eyes….I can read names…. I know nfl players. With all the brain power on this site, we’ve come up with 2 players……come up with more if you care to dispute the evidence at hand….I asked a question and the site has answered:  Winfield and Hayward. Come up with more…..that’s what I asked. 

 

 

Have a great week!

Edited April 27, 2022 by Motorin'

[NewEra]

2 minutes ago, Motorin' said:

 

Have a great week. 

You can’t come up with any good outside corners with short arms = have a good day.  
 

the data we have gathered suggests short arms corners aren’t good on the outsides.  If you care to debate it, come up with some more good corners.  It’s not hard……if they exist. 

[Motorin']

2 minutes ago, NewEra said:

You can’t come up with any good outside corners with short arms = have a good day.  
 

the data we have gathered suggests short arms corners aren’t good on the outsides.  If you care to debate it, come up with some more good corners.  It’s not hard……if they exist. 

 

Last thing, you're on the record claiming that Trent McDuffie can't play outside cb in the league bc his arms are .25 inches under 30"?

 

What if we chip in and get him gloves that have quarter inch finger tips?

 

 

Edited April 27, 2022 by Motorin'

[NewEra]

56 minutes ago, Motorin' said:

 

Last thing, you're on the record claiming that Trent McDuffie can't play outside cb in the league bc his arms are .25 inches under 30"?

 

What if we chip in and get him gloves that have quarter inch finger tips?

 

 

Dude…..I’m not on record saying anything of the sort..,,,,

 

I’m on record saying that McDuffie is a risk as an outside corner due to his short arms.  I’m on record saying that he projects best in the slot and slot corners shouldn’t be 1st rd picks.  We have Taron Johnson.  We need an outside corner….

 

that’s what I’m record saying.  I’m on record saying I love mcduffies tape….but there’s too much risk for me to take him @ 25.  I’d rather have Booth, Kyler Gordon or Dax Hill because I think their better outside than McDuffie.  
 

that’s what I’m saying.  I retracted my McDuffie statement in the OP because that wasn’t the point of my post.  I’ve already stated that. Don’t put words in my mouth. 

[AuntieEm]

7 hours ago, Motorin' said:

 

It's another way of saying you're missing the forrest for the trees. 

 

Here's what you need to do. You need to determine a valid metric of NFL success and apply it to each 10th percentile of arm length in order to see if there's a statistically significant correlation between arm length and success. 

 

But then there's always outliers, i.e. the individual tree in the forrest. 

 

How many 11th percentile arm length CB's are over 5' 11"? What percentile height is Trent McDuffie among the 11th percentile arm length? What percentile speed? What percentile RAS? 

 

You're fixated on one specific metric to the exclusion of all other variables. Kind of like those who only focused on Josh Allen's completion percentage at WY to the exclusion of his actual play on the field. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

   The same naysayers would have had us still hoping and wishing for the drought to end here in Buffalo because there's no way they would have been drafting Josh because QBs don't improve accuracy issues once they enter the NFL from college ranks.  Josh had way less college success at his position than this short armed cornerback who manages to overcome his physical shortcoming by intelligently leveraging the skills he has.  If he scores well on his wonderlic than that easily could negate the arm measurements.  

 

 

Note:   just read that wonderlic is no longer being used in combine testing so I guess RAS will be the way to seperate the prospects ceilings and of course if your team has excellent interviewing skills to help seperate the contenders from pretenders in drsfts.

Edited April 27, 2022 by AuntieEm

[MrEpsYtown]

All these guys have some sort of flaw. So it comes to the balance of what you are willing to accept. Gardner has a ton of PIs and is skinny, Stingley had a bad injury and hasn't played for awhile, McDuffie has his short arms. 

 

I think it is all part of the evaluation. I don't think McDuffie's arm length will hurt him. He held his own against the Michael Pittman's etc of the world. Any how many huge monster wideouts are you really going to see during the year? There are only like 3 or 4 in the league. 

 

But, that does not change the fact that there are only a few short armed corners who start on the outside. The math and data is there. So the odds of him staying there are less, and that is where some of the risk lies in his possible selection. Is it because they never got an opportunity or they just weren't good enough? No one really know that. 

 

As far as comps, Trent McDuffie is Cortland Finnegan. I can't get that out of my brain. Similar size, length, and athleticism. Finnegan faster and slightly more explosive. McDuffie is just a bit bigger. Now Finnegan was a 7th rounder from a small school who was a draft steal. McDuffie's game is way more refined coming out. Finnegan was an outside corner for many years and finished career in the slot for McDermott and the 2015 Panthers. 

 

 

 

[Thurman#1]

Ross Cockrell       29 7/8

Troy Hill   29 1/2

Avonte Maddox    29 1/2

 

 

Edited May 6, 2022 by Thurman#1

[Thurman#1]

On 4/28/2022 at 12:13 AM, NewEra said:

It’s another way of proving to the board that your a mental midget.  You’re using ONE example to prove a point….while we have thousands of cornerback examples to prove a point.
 

Over half the world was wrong on Josh Allen.  His heart and determination >>> everything else. That’s not the case with everyone.  Certainly not short armed corners….as there’s been 2 good ones in 34 years.  

 

 

... that we were able to find without access to terrific database sites with this info.

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, Thurman#1 said:

Ross Cockrell       29 7/8

Troy Hill   29 1/2

Avonte Maddox    29 1/2

 

 

And Troy Hill is a slot. Played fewer than 50 snaps outside last year. 

[NewEra]

5 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

Ross Cockrell       29 7/8

Troy Hill   29 1/2

Avonte Maddox    29 1/2

 

 

 

5 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

... that we were able to find without access to terrific database sites with this info.

 

3 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

And Troy Hill is a slot. Played fewer than 50 snaps outside last year. 

Was about to say this about Hill.  
 

Maddox is a nice player, I thought he played the majority of his snaps in the slot too, but I haven’t watched him in detail.  Anyone have the numbers on that?

 

I also wouldn’t consider cockrell to be “good”.  JAG is more like it.  8 years in the league and his best contract was 2 years 6.6M and the others were 1 year minimum type deals.  Not contract given to “good” corners.  
 

edit: Maddox played Cb2 in 2020 and was moved into the slot last year where he really excelled and will stay going forward.  He is now a slot corner https://www.nbcsports.com/philadelphia/eagles/eagles-avonte-maddox-nickel-cornerback-contract-year-extension?amp

 

https://www.inquirer.com/eagles/eagles-avonte-maddox-extension-sign-nfl-20211120.html?outputType=amp

 

 

Edited May 6, 2022 by NewEra

[GunnerBill]

38 minutes ago, NewEra said:

 

 

Was about to say this about Hill.  
 

Maddox is a nice player, I thought he played the majority of his snaps in the slot too, but I haven’t watched him in detail.  Anyone have the numbers on that?

 

I also wouldn’t consider cockrell to be “good”.  JAG is more like it.  8 years in the league and his best contract was 2 years 6.6M and the others were 1 year minimum type deals.  Not contract given to “good” corners.  
 

edit: Maddox played Cb2 in 2020 and was moved into the slot last year where he really excelled and will stay going forward.  He is now a slot corner https://www.nbcsports.com/philadelphia/eagles/eagles-avonte-maddox-nickel-cornerback-contract-year-extension?amp

 

https://www.inquirer.com/eagles/eagles-avonte-maddox-extension-sign-nfl-20211120.html?outputType=amp

 

 

 

Yea Maddox had his struggles on the outside. I have to say I didn't realise they had moved him into the slot last year (barely watched the Eagles in 2021) or that he had such a good season. 

[MJS]

On 4/27/2022 at 12:42 PM, MrEpsYtown said:

All these guys have some sort of flaw. So it comes to the balance of what you are willing to accept. Gardner has a ton of PIs and is skinny, Stingley had a bad injury and hasn't played for awhile, McDuffie has his short arms. 

 

I think it is all part of the evaluation. I don't think McDuffie's arm length will hurt him. He held his own against the Michael Pittman's etc of the world. Any how many huge monster wideouts are you really going to see during the year? There are only like 3 or 4 in the league. 

 

But, that does not change the fact that there are only a few short armed corners who start on the outside. The math and data is there. So the odds of him staying there are less, and that is where some of the risk lies in his possible selection. Is it because they never got an opportunity or they just weren't good enough? No one really know that. 

 

As far as comps, Trent McDuffie is Cortland Finnegan. I can't get that out of my brain. Similar size, length, and athleticism. Finnegan faster and slightly more explosive. McDuffie is just a bit bigger. Now Finnegan was a 7th rounder from a small school who was a draft steal. McDuffie's game is way more refined coming out. Finnegan was an outside corner for many years and finished career in the slot for McDermott and the 2015 Panthers. 

 

 

 

It's not just about matching up against bigger receivers. Arm length helps you recover and make up ground on a receiver. It can be the difference between reaching out and tipping the pass for an incompletion, or reaching out and missing and the receiver makes the catch.

 

Short arms means you have to play almost perfect. There is less room for error and recovery.

[PrimeTime101]

2 minutes ago, MJS said:

It's not just about matching up against bigger receivers. Arm length helps you recover and make up ground on a receiver. It can be the difference between reaching out and tipping the pass for an incompletion, or reaching out and missing and the receiver makes the catch.

 

Short arms means you have to play almost perfect. There is less room for error and recovery.

this is true. how many passes have we seen received that went just over the fingertips of the defender?