Name some good outside cornerbacks with sub 30 inch arms.

[Buffalo Junction]

4 hours ago, NewEra said:

Mcgee, one of my favs.  
 

McDuffie could be the best slot corner in the league, but I wouldn’t want to draft him in the first round.  In general, you need 30+ inch arms to be a good corner in the nfl.  2 good corners out of thousands doesn’t prove that theory wrong.  Those are anomalies when it’s 2 out of thousands. 

Definitely anomalies. I have to wonder about changes in the league though….
 

We’re starting to see some of these slot receivers and flankers become primary targets in offenses. There may be a place (particularly in man schemes) for smaller highly athletic corners that can track and mirror some of these track star receivers.

 

I don’t think we’re there yet, but more of the 5’8-6’ WRs with slighter frames are being used in motion. How defenses counter that personnel shift is going to be interesting. At the end of the day I’d rather not see McBeane take the risk of drafting atypical corners to combat that….. unless it works lol.  

[Big Blitz]

Shouldn't his or any other CB's lack of length weeded him out by now?  

 

Or does he continue to defy conventional wisdom in the pros because of elite athleticism, feet, anticipation, IQ, and ability to tackle?  

 

I get it your concerns are valid New Era and you put in research to back it up.  I'm as big on measurable traits and wing span or hand size as anyone.  But eventually production and other intangibles you bring can trump potential concerns with them.  At some point you have to say "it doesn't matter this kid can flat out play."    

 

Right, per the data, most successful corners have certain length.  But what happens when you're in a small sample size like Trent - meaning maybe most his size don't get this far so comparing him to others in his position isn't fair because not many get as far as he has (potential top 3 CB in the draft) - and if they do they must be doing a lot of other things extremely well.

[NewEra]

2 minutes ago, Motorin' said:

 

You're confident your deep research algorithm has proved your hypothesis? 

 

Unrelated question, were you a Josh Rosen is the right Josh guy?

No….I’m confidant that those numbers aren’t just random.  
 

You say this as of being right or wrong on a player has anything to do with anything.

 

I’ve been on record for 4 years as a rosen guy.  I thought he had a better chance of not sucking.  Our QB development had been terrible for 20 years and 17 needed a lot of it.  I didn’t have confidence in that changing.  Thankfully, I move never been more wrong.  

 

 

[Motorin']

1 minute ago, NewEra said:

No….I’m confidant that those numbers aren’t just random.  
 

You say this as of being right or wrong on a player has anything to do with anything.

 

I’ve been on record for 4 years as a rosen guy.  I thought he had a better chance of not sucking.  Our QB development had been terrible for 20 years and 17 needed a lot of it.  I didn’t have confidence in that changing.  Thankfully, I move never been more wrong.  

 

 

 

I'm just saying I can't find a database that aggregates arm length and player performance. Going by how many names guys on a message board can name isn't how math works... And even if only 2 players with arms less than 30" at outside cb have been good, it has nothing to do with McDuffie's career prospects. Correlation does not imply causation.

 

[NewEra]

5 minutes ago, Motorin' said:

 

I'm just saying I can't find a database that aggregates arm length and player performance. Going by how many names guys on a message board can name isn't how math works... And even if only 2 players with arms less than 30" at outside cb have been good, it has nothing to do with McDuffie's career prospects. Correlation does not imply causation.

 

I’m not trying to convince you of anything.  i could care less what you think.  
 

I started the thread to educate myself.  I wanted to know how many good short armed boundary CBs have existed.  I never correlated arm length with cb success before now.  I’ve seen it mentioned a bunch during this pre draft process and started to look into it.  So far, we have 2 names in the last 34 years.   
 

Feel free to use that information in any way that you’d like.  

[badassgixxer05]

How are is arms so tiny? Maybe hes still growing?

[BillsFanForever19]

1 hour ago, NewEra said:

Every argument has a counter argument when you’re talking about hypotheticals.  You know what doesn’t have a counter argument?  That short arm outside corners don’t fair very well in the nfl.  That is a fact. 

 

The only "fact" you've proven is that outside CB's way more often than not have longer arms. There isn't any real data of late on how a prospect the calibur of McDuffie performed at the next level. Comparing 5th and 3rd round picks who came into the league just last season is not a fair comparison.

 

35 minutes ago, NewEra said:

I started the thread to educate myself.  I wanted to know how many good short armed boundary CBs have existed.  I never correlated arm length with cb success before now. I’ve seen it mentioned a bunch during this pre draft process and started to look into it.  So far, we have 2 names in the last 34 years.   

 

That's because it's not as simple to find as you've made it seem. You can search combine measurements year by year, but there's no database you can look at of Cornerbacks throughout history that have arms under 30". 

Edited April 27, 2022 by BillsFanForever19

[The Dean]

You looking for this? 

 

Or this?

 

[longtimebillsfan]

Jack Butler.  He played for the Steelers 1951 - 1959.

 

Next.

[Shake_My_Head]

13 minutes ago, Motorin' said:

Correlation does not imply causation.

Well, I'd say 35 years of combine measurables supports the hypothisis pretty strongly. 

 

Since 1987, only 130 of the 1,214 CBs measured at the combine (11%) have had arms 29.75" or less.    Over the past ten years, only 52 of 537 (less than 10%) have had those arm measurables.  Here's the list:

 

https://nflcombineresults.com/nflcombinedata_expanded.php?year=all&pos=CB&college=

[BillsFanForever19]

6 minutes ago, Shake_My_Head said:

Well, I'd say 35 years of combine measurables supports the hypothisis pretty strongly. 

 

Since 1987, only 130 of the 1,214 CBs measured at the combine (11%) have had arms 29.75" or less.    Over the past ten years, only 52 of 537 (less than 10%) have had those arm measurables.  Here's the list:

 

https://nflcombineresults.com/nflcombinedata_expanded.php?year=all&pos=CB&college=

 

But of that list, how many were 1st Round talents comparable to Trent McDuffie? Zero. It's not fair to compare what he's put on film and his scouting report against guys who were not at his level. There are quite a few Undrafted Free Agents on that list.

Edited April 27, 2022 by BillsFanForever19

[Motorin']

2 minutes ago, Shake_My_Head said:

Well, I'd say 35 years of combine measurables supports the hypothisis pretty strongly. 

 

Since 1987, only 130 of the 1,214 CBs measured at the combine (11%) have had arms 29.75" or less.    Over the past ten years, only 52 of 537 (less than 10%) have had those arm measurables.  Here's the list:

 

https://nflcombineresults.com/nflcombinedata_expanded.php?year=all&pos=CB&college=

 

Your claim is that being in the 11th percentile for arm length is predicative of future success of a specifc player? 

 

 

1 minute ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

 

But of that list, how many were 1st Round talents comparable to Trent McDuffie? Zero. It's not fair to compare what he's put on film and his scouting report against guys who were not at his level.

 

Stop bringing reality to the table!

 

I have a hypothesis to test: there's a strong correlation between posters who care that Trent McDuffie's arms are .25" under 30" and posters who thought Rosen was the right Josh. 

[NewEra]

35 minutes ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

 

The only "fact" you've proven is that outside CB's way more often than not have longer arms. There isn't any real data of late on how a prospect the calibur of McDuffie performed at the next level. Comparing 5th and 3rd round picks who came into the league just last season is not a fair comparison.

 

 

That's because it's not as simple to find as you've made it seem. You can search combine measurements year by year, but there's no database you can look at of Cornerbacks throughout history that have arms under 30". 

We’re comparing EVERY cornerback prospect that ever attended the nfl combine.  Ever. That’s 34 years worth of cb prospects. 2 good outside corners with arms under 30 inches.  
 

https://nflcombineresults.com/nflcombinedata_expanded.php?year=all&pos=CB&college=

 

that doesn’t mean McDuffie won’t be good. I never said that was the case.  It means that, throughout the history of the combine, it’s unlikely that that a cb with his length arms will excel on the boundary.  Period.  That’s all it means.  You can disagree all you like.  
 

i could care less if you disagree or not….  This is data.  You can claim that it’s insignificant if you want.  Fine by me.  

 

 

8 minutes ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

 

But of that list, how many were 1st Round talents comparable to Trent McDuffie? Zero. It's not fair to compare what he's put on film and his scouting report against guys who were not at his level. There are quite a few Undrafted Free Agents on that list.

That has nothing to do with the data man…. Wake up.  Stop trying to prove a point and wake up.  
 

we aren’t JUST talking about a McDuffie.  That’s not what the thread is about. It’s just a numbers game.  And the numbers show that the likelihood of a short armed cb excelling on the boundary is unlikely.  THAT IS ALL.  Stop moving the goal posts. 

7 minutes ago, Motorin' said:

 

Your claim is that being in the 11th percentile for arm length is predicative of future success of a specifc player? 

 

 

 

Stop bringing reality to the table!

 

I have a hypothesis to test: there's a strong correlation between posters who care that Trent McDuffie's arms are .25" under 30" and posters who thought Rosen was the right Josh. 

You’re acting like this thread is 💯 about McDuffie.  If I presented it that way, then my bad.  I apologize.  That wasn’t the purpose.  I’ll retract it from the OP so I don’t confuse anyone else

Edited April 27, 2022 by NewEra

[purple haze]

21 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

@NewEraThe closest I could find would be Antoine Winfield 30 1/8 

 

Mcduffie is 29 3/4 

 

So that is like 3/8 off 

 

Not a lot of people honestly... 

 

But his almost 40 inch vertical could also make up some room

McDuffie is going to be good.  He’s a football player.  I can see Beane/McD liking him a whole lot.   

[Richard Noggin]

1 hour ago, Big Blitz said:

Shouldn't his or any other CB's lack of length weeded him out by now?  

 

Or does he continue to defy conventional wisdom in the pros because of elite athleticism, feet, anticipation, IQ, and ability to tackle?  

 

I get it your concerns are valid New Era and you put in research to back it up.  I'm as big on measurable traits and wing span or hand size as anyone.  But eventually production and other intangibles you bring can trump potential concerns with them.  At some point you have to say "it doesn't matter this kid can flat out play."    

 

Right, per the data, most successful corners have certain length.  But what happens when you're in a small sample size like Trent - meaning maybe most his size don't get this far so comparing him to others in his position isn't fair because not many get as far as he has (potential top 3 CB in the draft) - and if they do they must be doing a lot of other things extremely well.

 

You make a great counterpoint here, in that comparing this particular highly-rated, short-armed COLLEGE/DRAFT cornerback prospect to other short-armed PROFESSIONAL NFL cornerbacks doesn't consider amateur context/pedigree, which allows for further consideration of McDuffie's unhandicapped ability. 

 

This limited trait of his might reasonably damage his draft value, however. Right or wrong. 

Edited April 27, 2022 by Richard Noggin

[Shake_My_Head]

28 minutes ago, Motorin' said:

Your claim is that being in the 11th percentile for arm length is predicative of future success of a specifc player? 

I'm not claiming anything.  I'm just showing comparables.   The list is comprised of CBs invited to the combine, so not just walk-ons or fringe guys.

 

Just 11% of over 1,200 CB prospects invited to the combine since 1987 is quite a bit of support for arm length being problematic.   Here's the complete list of 130, if you want to pull out some successful names.

 

2004-22:

Edited April 27, 2022 by Shake_My_Head

[Motorin']

10 minutes ago, Shake_My_Head said:

I'm not claiming anything.  I'm just showing comparables.   The list is comprised of CBs invited to the combine, so not just walk-ons or fringe guys.

 

Just 11% of over 1,200 CB prospects invited to the combine since 1987 is quite a bit of support for arm length being problematic.   Here's the complete list of 130, if you want to pull out some successful names.

 

2004-22:

 

Were you a Rosen is the right Josh guy too? 

 

[Shake_My_Head]

Just now, Motorin' said:

 

Were you a Rosen is the right Josh guy too? 

 

Deflecting much?   

 

Where are the first round CBs in that list of 130?    Winfield jumps out, but I don't see much else.

 

I'm actually a big fan of McDuffie, BTW.  I love his intangibles and he may be the reincarnation of Antoine Winfield Sr.   But as a boundry CB in today's pass-happy NFL, that's a pretty big leap of faith.   

 

Better that McDuffie play over the slot than outside.    But then, why would you spend a top-25 pick on a slot CB?   Doesn't seem to be a good use of draft capital.

[Motorin']

28 minutes ago, Shake_My_Head said:

Deflecting much?   

 

Where are the first round CBs in that list of 130?    Winfield jumps out, but I don't see much else.

 

I'm actually a big fan of McDuffie, BTW.  I love his intangibles and he may be the reincarnation of Antoine Winfield Sr.   But as a boundry CB in today's pass-happy NFL, that's a pretty big leap of faith.   

 

Better that McDuffie play over the slot than outside.    But then, why would you spend a top-25 pick on a slot CB?   Doesn't seem to be a good use of draft capital.

 

Chosen Rosen Math 

[Shake_My_Head]

5 hours ago, Motorin' said:

 

Chosen Rosen Math 

And away you go...