Name some good outside cornerbacks with sub 30 inch arms.

[billykay]

7 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

I don't think anyone has suggested the arm length will stop McDuffie being able to play in the NFL. I actually think he is very unlikely to be a bust. At worst I think he will be a very good slot corner. The point on McDuffie is I do see a ceiling limitation based on both his measurables and his play style. I don't think he will ever be a true high level #1 outside corner. I see him more as a good #2 corner on the outside or a top end slot. Then your question becomes is that worth a top 25 pick in the NFL draft? 

 

To me the answer is still, no. 

How is arm length measured ? Is there a margin for error ? Can a 30 1/8 really be a 30" ?

[PrimeTime101]

4 minutes ago, billykay said:

How is arm length measured ? Is there a margin for error ? Can a 30 1/8 really be a 30" ?

ever rent/buy a tux and get your arm measured, then on pickup day the arm length on the tux is perfect? Thats how

[BigAl2526]

Quite a few mocks lately have McDuffie going before the Bills pick, including too New England.  That would be goodnews for me if it happens.  I would much prefer Andrew Booth, and I think I could live with Kaiir Elam

[oldmanfan]

59 minutes ago, billykay said:

How is arm length measured ? Is there a margin for error ? Can a 30 1/8 really be a 30" ?

Exactly.  Without knowing the standard error we don’t know if he really has 30” reach or not.

[NewEra]

1 hour ago, PrimeTime101 said:

I stopped reading the second you said that..

8 seconds look how high the dude jumped.  He jumped so high his legs from his knee to feet went horizontal with the field. for ONE SECOND... dont try and tell me Vertical leap does not make up for arm length.. 

 

 

HORRIBLE Narrative This is a ball that was about to hit a player on time right place at the players helmet and he jumped up and stole it... 

 

ever hear of the 50/50 ball? 

Jumping only makes up for short arms on plays in which the CB jumps up.  The majority of the passes defended don’t require the CB to jump.  

11 minutes ago, BigAl2526 said:

Quite a few mocks lately have McDuffie going before the Bills pick, including too New England.  That would be goodnews for me if it happens.  I would much prefer Andrew Booth, and I think I could live with Kaiir Elam

Elam can’t tackle.  Boo him @ 25.  

[MrEpsYtown]

Here is a little list i put together in another post. Now keep in mind that I love McDuffie and Stingley. I think mcDuffie was tailor made to play in this defense. Everything he does on film is what we do defensively. The arms don't bother me much because he is dynamic and super smart and a great tackler. The other thing is that the idea that he will struggle with bigger receiver is a projection. I really haven't seen it. 

 

James Bradberry is 33 3/8s

Daryl Worley is 33 3/8s

Tre White is 32 1/8th
Xavien Howard is 31.25

Denzel Ward is 31.25

Marshon Lattimore is 31.25

Jaire Alexander is 31 1/8th

Derek Stingley is 30 5/8s

McDuffie is 29.75

McCreary is 28 7/8s

Donte Jackson is 29.5

Byron Murphy is 30 1/8

 

In terms of wingspan, McDuffie is 72 3/8″. It's small, which I guess implies that he doesn't have super wide shoulders. Byron Murphy's wingspan is 71⅜. Donte Jackson is  71⅝. So I guess you could argue that his wingspan maybe helps him. 

 

To me what is important is what I see when I watch him play, and the RAS. 

 

Here is a useful chart showing all the corners: 

https://steelersdepot.com/2022/04/2022-draft-cornerback-prospects-relative-athletic-scores-ras/

 

I just love this dude. He oozes process. 

https://thedraftnetwork.com/articles/trent-mcduffie-film-nfl-combine-draft-skill-set

[Buffalo Junction]

5 hours ago, NewEra said:

Great find….thank you.  Added that to my bookmarks.  So there’s one good cb in the last 34 years that had arms shorter than 30 inches.  
 

not saying McDuffie won’t be good. I like his tape.  He looks like a helluva player.  So did Donte Jackson when the panthers took him in rd 1.  If he’s out pick, I’m sure we’ll be getting a solid player that will start opposite Tre for a year or two, but may just end up replacing Taron in the slot. If money gets tight.  

Mark McMillian? 
 

The issue might be looking at outside draft prospects only. Generally speaking wingspan matters, especially when dealing with a lot of the longer receivers in the league. There are certainly some quality players at the 30”-30&1/2” though…. Especially if we include slot corners. 

 

 

[transplantbillsfan]

5 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Hayward is as close as you come to making the point, he had a couple of years with the Chargers where he was a legit #1 outside corner. But even he started in the league in Green Bay as a nickel corner. He didn't become a starting outside corner until year 6, his second season on his second team. Murphy is a decent player, but while he 'starts' outside in base when the Cardinals go to nickel he plays the slot and Borders comes in on the outside. Murphy played over 100 more snaps in the slot in 2021 than he did outside. 

 

I would argue both of those actually prove my point. That you can have shorter arms and be a good NFL corner, but that generally means playing at nickel or being a lower ceiling guy outside. 

 

I think Hayward is like the high end projection for McDuffie. He was a round 2 pick. My question marks are whether he really represents 1st round value?

 

Gunner I'm probably going to bombard you with questions in the next couple days leading up to the draft.  I don't hide the fact that I really don't watch ANY college football, but I'll say that I feel a bit more educated about this year's draft than any other year.  I've been spending a lot of my time as I wash dishes or do work around the house or get ready in the morning or driving to work listening to podcasts from the likes of Joe Marino, Dane Brugler, Daniel Jeremiah/Bucky Brooks, Bruce Nolan, etc.

 

Everyone seems to share the concerns about arm length for McDuffie.  Yet, everyone also seems to believe he's one of the top 20 players in this draft with a true 1st round grade.

 

So... let me ask you this since you watch these prospects:

 

Is McDuffie's film truly just that good?  Is the only real concern about him his arm length?

 

That's an honest question and I'm genuinely curious about your answer.  My feelings are that if his game tape is truly just that good and for everything else he tested well (isn't 4.44 fast enough for a CB?) and the only concern is his arm length... aren't the chances pretty decent he'll be a good starting CB if he can make up for those few inches in arm length if he has more fluid hips and better instincts and can be right in the hip pocket of the guy he's covering at all times?

[NewEra]

22 minutes ago, Buffalo Junction said:

Mark McMillian? 
 

The issue might be looking at outside draft prospects only. Generally speaking wingspan matters, especially when dealing with a lot of the longer receivers in the league. There are certainly some quality players at the 30”-30&1/2” though…. Especially if we include slot corners. 

 

 

Mcgee, one of my favs.  
 

McDuffie could be the best slot corner in the league, but I wouldn’t want to draft him in the first round.  In general, you need 30+ inch arms to be a good corner in the nfl.  2 good corners out of thousands doesn’t prove that theory wrong.  Those are anomalies when it’s 2 out of thousands. 

[XXXtraAnchovies]

5 hours ago, PrimeTime101 said:

I stopped reading the second you said that..

8 seconds look how high the dude jumped.  He jumped so high his legs from his knee to feet went horizontal with the field. for ONE SECOND... dont try and tell me Vertical leap does not make up for arm length.. 

 

 

HORRIBLE Narrative This is a ball that was about to hit a player on time right place at the players helmet and he jumped up and stole it... 

 

ever hear of the 50/50 ball? 

vertical leap doesn't make up for issues with disengaging from blockers and getting boxed out on back shoulder throws

[GunnerBill]

48 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Gunner I'm probably going to bombard you with questions in the next couple days leading up to the draft.  I don't hide the fact that I really don't watch ANY college football, but I'll say that I feel a bit more educated about this year's draft than any other year.  I've been spending a lot of my time as I wash dishes or do work around the house or get ready in the morning or driving to work listening to podcasts from the likes of Joe Marino, Dane Brugler, Daniel Jeremiah/Bucky Brooks, Bruce Nolan, etc.

 

Everyone seems to share the concerns about arm length for McDuffie.  Yet, everyone also seems to believe he's one of the top 20 players in this draft with a true 1st round grade.

 

So... let me ask you this since you watch these prospects:

 

Is McDuffie's film truly just that good?  Is the only real concern about him his arm length?

 

That's an honest question and I'm genuinely curious about your answer.  My feelings are that if his game tape is truly just that good and for everything else he tested well (isn't 4.44 fast enough for a CB?) and the only concern is his arm length... aren't the chances pretty decent he'll be a good starting CB if he can make up for those few inches in arm length if he has more fluid hips and better instincts and can be right in the hip pocket of the guy he's covering at all times?

 

I think technique sometimes lets him down too but that is fixable because it is caused at times by him playing too fast. 

 

The chances that he is "pretty decent" are high. The chances he is "very good" on thr outside are low. That is the question for me. 

[Big Turk]

T-Rex? The WRs ran backwards from him to get away

[BillsFanForever19]

10 hours ago, NewEra said:

Here I go again…..making completely valid points…..MY BAD. 

 

"Here we go again" as in you, specifically, beating a dead horse. Pretty sure this isn't the first or even the second post I've had this same conversation with you in.

 

10 hours ago, NewEra said:

Sounds like we should take Mcduffie….if we want to be stubborn idiots.

 

"Stubborn" would be to completely disqualify a player's potential and disregard everything in a scouting report for one thing. I can understand having concerns about his measurements. I'm not disqualifying it. But I cannot understand completely dismissing a players potential and every other trait a player provides because of one thing.

 

His NFL.com scouting report reads:

 

Quote

Three-year starter whose average size is overshadowed by skillful ruggedness, allowing him to contest throws from a variety of coverages. He's an elite competitor with a route-hugging mentality fueled by body control, foot agility, aggression and burst. He's a pesky press-man defender with the tools to excel in zone. He's willing to fly downhill and hit anybody near the football. He keeps his eyes on the prize and has an itchy, twitchy trigger to close throwing windows and make plays on the ball. He lacks lockdown traits but has lockdown talent and his competitive energy is contagious. He can play outside or from the slot and carries a very high floor with the potential to become one of the league's top corners at some point during his first contract.

 

In 2018, the scuttlebutt on this board was we couldn't possibly draft Josh Allen because a QB has never drastically improved accuracy from College to the Pros. This is more often than not true, but Josh proved an outlier.

 

In 2019, many said we wouldn't draft Ed Oliver because we require certain measurements from our Defensive Lineman and he was just too small. But he had other traits that made up for them, so we pulled the trigger. McDuffie could be the same situation. 

 

10 hours ago, NewEra said:

 History shows that…..Trent McDuffie is the only good short armed cb in history.   He must truly be a superstar. 

 

Holy exaggeration, Batman. Your point is that he can't do it because there isn't a player who has. My point was that if you're going to use lack of success of others as to whether or not he personally would or wouldn't be a 1st Round bust, then you need to compare him to others who were considered 1st Round talents, not just players who share the same measurements.

 

It's not fair to compare him to guys who were considered late round or UDFA talents and say that he can't do it because they didn't, when they were never expected to be stars or succeed like him in the first place because of their lack of on field talent.

 

I would respect this argument of absolute certainty you have a little more if you could provide a list of 1st Round talents that definitively failed to perform up to the expectations McDuffie has. The fact is, there isn't a real comparison in recent history. This doesn't make your case. It just proves that McDuffie is an outlier.

 

Ultimately, this argument will probably serve moot. Because despite your concerns, McDuffie is a player who isn't even on the board at 25 in virtually all mock drafts.

 

Brandon Beane has met with Trent McDuffie, as well as Roger McCreary, who *gasp* has even shorter arms. He was at Washington's Pro Day. He's scouted him thoroughly. I doubt he'd bother if he was off our board. If he selects him and has faith in him, I would too. Again, only time will tell if the league is as concerned about his measurements as you are and whether or not he will succeed.

Edited April 26, 2022 by BillsFanForever19

[BigAl2526]

6 hours ago, NewEra said:

 

Elam can’t tackle.  Boo him @ 25.  

A long time ago the same was said about another cornerback, Dion Sanders.  Elam has some elite traits.  He would not be my first choice in the draft, but Elam's shortcomings are in areas that I think are coachable, and I have a lot of respect for Buffalo's coaching staff.  I also think Tre White could be a pretty good mentor for him.

[The Dean]

8 hours ago, billykay said:

How is arm length measured ? Is there a margin for error ? Can a 30 1/8 really be a 30" ?

 

 

Is that measured from the base? 

 

 

[MrEpsYtown]

Yeah its funny. Elam has a ton of flaws in his game and he seems soft in some ways. McDuffie has all kinds of great measurable and intangibles and his knowledge and execution of zone concepts is excellent. He is also stronger and more explosive. 
 

Elams arms 30 7/8ths

 

 

McDuffie 29.75

 

 

When all those boxes are checked, really is an inch going to be a dealbreaker?

 

 

 

[BillsFanForever19]

Just now, MrEpsYtown said:

When all those boxes are checked, really is an inch going to be a dealbreaker?

 

Exactly my point. One negative trait doesn't discount everything. It's fair to have a concern about a prospects measurements. But it's unfair to discount 3 years of high level production and everything else on a scouting report for one thing. Doubly unfair to compare him to players that entered the league with a fraction of his expectations to begin with.

[NewEra]

1 hour ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

 

"Here we go again" as in you, specifically, beating a dead horse. Pretty sure this isn't the first or even the second post I've had this same conversation with you in.

 

 

"Stubborn" would be to completely disqualify a player's potential and disregard everything in a scouting report for one thing. I can understand having concerns about his measurements. I'm not disqualifying it. But I cannot understand completely dismissing a players potential and every other trait a player provides because of one thing.

 

His NFL.com scouting report reads:

 

 

In 2018, the scuttlebutt on this board was we couldn't possibly draft Josh Allen because a QB has never drastically improved accuracy from College to the Pros. This is more often than not true, but Josh proved an outlier.

 

In 2019, many said we wouldn't draft Ed Oliver because we require certain measurements from our Defensive Lineman and he was just too small. But he had other traits that made up for them, so we pulled the trigger. McDuffie could be the same situation. 

 

 

Holy exaggeration, Batman. Your point is that he can't do it because there isn't a player who has. My point was that if you're going to use lack of success of others as to whether or not he personally would or wouldn't be a 1st Round bust, then you need to compare him to others who were considered 1st Round talents, not just players who share the same measurements.

 

It's not fair to compare him to guys who were considered late round or UDFA talents and say that he can't do it because they didn't, when they were never expected to be stars or succeed like him in the first place because of their lack of on field talent.

 

I would respect this argument of absolute certainty you have a little more if you could provide a list of 1st Round talents that definitively failed to perform up to the expectations McDuffie has. The fact is, there isn't a real comparison in recent history. This doesn't make your case. It just proves that McDuffie is an outlier.

 

Ultimately, this argument will probably serve moot. Because despite your concerns, McDuffie is a player who isn't even on the board at 25 in virtually all mock drafts.

 

Brandon Beane has met with Trent McDuffie, as well as Roger McCreary, who *gasp* has even shorter arms. He was at Washington's Pro Day. He's scouted him thoroughly. I doubt he'd bother if he was off our board. If he selects him and has faith in him, I would too. Again, only time will tell if the league is as concerned about his measurements as you are and whether or not he will succeed.

Every argument has a counter argument when you’re talking about hypotheticals.  You know what doesn’t have a counter argument?  That short arm outside corners don’t fair very well in the nfl.  That is a fact. You can make up as many analogies as you like. It won’t change the fact that there’s only been 2 very good outside corners in the last 34 years.  I don’t have to prove how many short armed corners there have been.  There’s been enough to know that the 2 out of 34 years is an anomaly.  
 

that doesn’t mean McDuffie or mccreary wont be good. It means that they’ll be better off inside and will likely be great slot corners. But we’ll see 

[NewEra]

52 minutes ago, BigAl2526 said:

A long time ago the same was said about another cornerback, Dion Sanders.  Elam has some elite traits.  He would not be my first choice in the draft, but Elam's shortcomings are in areas that I think are coachable, and I have a lot of respect for Buffalo's coaching staff.  I also think Tre White could be a pretty good mentor for him.

Once upon a time Deion sanders. 
 

oh man. 
 

I get it. I like his traits too.  He’s being compared to CJ henderson….who was supposedly his mentor. Soft as ****

 

I agree, our coaching staff can coach anyone up.  I just think tackling is a mentality.  Deion couldn’t tackle….and he never got better at it. Elam can’t cover like Deion. He never will be able to. 
 

Nice 2nd rd value with hopes he can change his mentality, but i think he’s a huge reach @ 25.  

[Motorin']

15 minutes ago, NewEra said:

Every argument has a counter argument when you’re talking about hypotheticals.  You know what doesn’t have a counter argument?  That short arm outside corners don’t fair very well in the nfl.  That is a fact. You can make up as many analogies as you like. It won’t change the fact that there’s only been 2 very good outside corners in the last 34 years.  I don’t have to prove how many short armed corners there have been.  There’s been enough to know that the 2 out of 34 years is an anomaly.  
 

that doesn’t mean McDuffie or mccreary wont be good. It means that they’ll be better off inside and will likely be great slot corners. But we’ll see 

 

You're confident your deep research algorithm has proved your hypothesis? 

 

Unrelated question, were you a Josh Rosen is the right Josh guy?