NFL Draft Rumors

[Shaw66]

1 hour ago, glazeduck said:

Adding a vertical element to the offense is certainly one approach, and yes, Jameson Williams fits that absolutely perfectly. There's also more of the alpha/bully/big-bodied WR, and I think Pickens fits that mold (to say nothing of his 4.47 being both not slow and ESPECIALLY not slow coming off a major injury). There's the YAC/get-the-ball-in-his-hands and let him make plays mold, that I think Wilson and Burks fit... There's a lot of routes you can go.

 

I don't say this to be dismissive of your points at all, but there's SOOO much more to it than the 40 time and there are reasons why Danny Gray and Bo Melton are being projected as 3rd and 4th round picks and why other guys are looking at going in the top half of the first. You act like wanting a "big name" is a bad thing -- I want those guys because they're fantastic football players. You're right that people slept on Davis, but he's also worked his butt off to become what looks like a mid-level WR2, and yes, with Diggs in tow, the rookie will probably be, at best WR2b, but that doesn't mean you can discount how they fit in or how you would want to use them. 

The 2nd and 3rd round options you like are fine, I guess, I just don't think any of them are special and we're in a window where we should be looking for special. I think in that range, guys like Justyn Ross and Tolbert at least have a chance to be special (or dynamic in a way we don't already have).

Not that I'm trying to unravel your debate, but I thought I'd add my two cents about what I'd be looking for.   I don't know the prospects, so I can't put names to what I'm saying.   And I'm not one who believes the Bills need to build to beat the Chiefs or look like the Chiefs, but I think the Chiefs are prototype when it comes to your #2 and #3.   Hardman and Pringle.  And yes, I think speed is the primary but not sole attribute.  Hardman was sub 4.4 and Pringle 4.46.  Diggs was 4.46.   Davis was 4.54, and I think that's not quite good enough.   Davis gets deep, yes, but he does it with deception.  When he's on the field, corners aren't worried that he will outrun them to end zone. 

 

Now, obviously speed alone isn't enough.  The guy's got to have some other characteristics, and we can talk about those, but fundamentally you want two guys, and ideally three, who threaten to go deep whenever they're on field.   McKenzie was 4.42, Beasley 4.49, many years ago, and that's why McKenzie stayed and Beas is gone (other reasons, too).  But Diggs and guys like Davis don't give you the ability to attack nearly as well as Diggs and sub 4.4 guy who can play, a guy like Hardman.  

 

McBeane have been very clear about two things:  They want speed, and they want to attack the whole field.   You need speed to attack the whole field.   That's what Hardman and Pringle did for the Chiefs.  Hill was the star, but those other two guys were running to open space a lot.  Hill's gone and Pringle's gone, but Valdez-Scantling is there now - also sub 4.4.  

 

So, I've thought for a couple of months now that a quality speed receiver is one guy the Bills might trade up for.  As I said, I don't know the prospects, but if a speed guy they like falls to mid-teens, I'd be thrilled to see the Bills go up to get him.  Or - Hardman was the 5th receiver taken in his draft - take the right guy at 25 or move up in the second round to get him.  

 

If the Bills' top four wideouts are Diggs, Davis, McKenzie, and speed guy who's a quality receiver, the Bills can come at defenses with deadly combinations.   Two wide plus Knox.  Three wide and Knox.   Four wide.   Group them almost any way you want, and the defense has a dilemma.   But the key to it is another guy who has the natural speed to get deep.  

[SCBills]

2 hours ago, gonzo1105 said:

 

So what are we looking for in your opinion? Your looking for a burner would be my guess. Someone to take the top off of a defense. This is why everyone loves Jameson Williams. Well we have maybe a 5% shot at Williams.  If that's the case we can eliminate other guys who ran slower. Pickens doesn't fit then either with his 4.47 which is too "slow". Take Treylon Burks off the board with his 4.55. Danny Gray ran a 4.33 is that fast enough for people, Bo Melton ran a 4.34. People just want big name guys that they think are going to be legit # 1s. At best for the next couple of years, the WR we draft will be a # 3 guy. If we get a guy in the first round that's fine I understand, more weapons for Allen. I'm sayin there are other options in round 2 or round 3. A couple of years ago no one was talking about Gabriel Davis. He was thought of as ho hum whatever pick in another very deep draft where we traded it for Diggs.

 

There are tons of guys who are successful is rounds 3 and 4 and later that become big time WR's. 

We've given Allen an average offensive line, no running game, RD3 Tight End, RD4 WR Diggs and solid vet players at Slot & Gadget. 
 

We keep pouring asset after asset into the Defense.  
 

We just feel it’s time to take a swing and do a solid for JA17.  
 

Maybe we get to tomorrow night and find out it was just going to be way too expensive, but if #25 and next years RD1 can get us Jameson Williams… a seemingly perfect fit for this Offense… I’m doing it with no hesitation. 

[Aurelius]

9 minutes ago, SCBills said:

We've given Allen an average offensive line, no running game, RD3 Tight End, RD4 WR Diggs and solid vet players at Slot & Gadget. 
 

We keep pouring asset after asset into the Defense.  
 

We just feel it’s time to take a swing and do a solid for JA17.  
 

Maybe we get to tomorrow night and find out it was just going to be way too expensive, but if #25 and next years RD1 can get us Jameson Williams… a seemingly perfect fit for this Offense… I’m doing it with no hesitation. 

It doesn’t have to be Jameson Williams but I do agree it’s time to feed the offensive beast.  Which is why I’m good with focusing on offensive guys to bolster what We have.  Get that RB we need, another young TE, a lineman and some sort of receiver with speed and upside.  

Edited April 27, 2022 by Aurelius

[glazeduck]

18 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Not that I'm trying to unravel your debate, but I thought I'd add my two cents about what I'd be looking for.   I don't know the prospects, so I can't put names to what I'm saying.   And I'm not one who believes the Bills need to build to beat the Chiefs or look like the Chiefs, but I think the Chiefs are prototype when it comes to your #2 and #3.   Hardman and Pringle.  And yes, I think speed is the primary but not sole attribute.  Hardman was sub 4.4 and Pringle 4.46.  Diggs was 4.46.   Davis was 4.54, and I think that's not quite good enough.   Davis gets deep, yes, but he does it with deception.  When he's on the field, corners aren't worried that he will outrun them to end zone. 

 

Now, obviously speed alone isn't enough.  The guy's got to have some other characteristics, and we can talk about those, but fundamentally you want two guys, and ideally three, who threaten to go deep whenever they're on field.   McKenzie was 4.42, Beasley 4.49, many years ago, and that's why McKenzie stayed and Beas is gone (other reasons, too).  But Diggs and guys like Davis don't give you the ability to attack nearly as well as Diggs and sub 4.4 guy who can play, a guy like Hardman.  

 

McBeane have been very clear about two things:  They want speed, and they want to attack the whole field.   You need speed to attack the whole field.   That's what Hardman and Pringle did for the Chiefs.  Hill was the star, but those other two guys were running to open space a lot.  Hill's gone and Pringle's gone, but Valdez-Scantling is there now - also sub 4.4.  

 

So, I've thought for a couple of months now that a quality speed receiver is one guy the Bills might trade up for.  As I said, I don't know the prospects, but if a speed guy they like falls to mid-teens, I'd be thrilled to see the Bills go up to get him.  Or - Hardman was the 5th receiver taken in his draft - take the right guy at 25 or move up in the second round to get him.  

 

If the Bills' top four wideouts are Diggs, Davis, McKenzie, and speed guy who's a quality receiver, the Bills can come at defenses with deadly combinations.   Two wide plus Knox.  Three wide and Knox.   Four wide.   Group them almost any way you want, and the defense has a dilemma.   But the key to it is another guy who has the natural speed to get deep.  

A lot of mostly good thoughts here, but I think by aligning player type to player type, you're overcomplicating things. First of all Pringle and Hardman are their 3 and 4 -- sometimes their 4 and 5 with Kelce and pass-catching RBs in the formations, so there's that. While Diggs is comparable in talent to those guys, Davis is not (so we're already losing in your apples:apples) AND it's underestimating the stress that Hill's freakish speed puts on the defense. Diggs might be the more polished/talented player, but he doesn't force the defense's hand like Hill does. So in many ways, to what you're saying, we're already -2.

 

If you want to identify speed, then fine. Yes, McBeane has said many times they'd like to get faster, and I believe them. But there's only so many talents like Hill out there. YES, you can find guys who run fast 40s, but that's not a particularly valuable skill if they don't have the route running ability, the ability to setup dbs, the hands, etc. If all we're looking for to make safeties respect Josh Allen nukes is a guy to run windsprints, then trade a 6th rd pick for Jalen Raeger or sign Will Fuller. 

 

What we should be (and I think McBeane ARE) looking for, is guys who can create mismatches and strain defenses. As I mentioned, speed is one way, but there are others (again, already mentioned those). 

 

To draft a guy early with a fast 40 because we have a slim chance at getting the guy we want feels VERY silly to me when there are more talented options who have better chances as panning out and providing advantages in other ways. 

[4merper4mer]

I heard a rumor that the rumor thread is now a dissertation on skill sets and schemes.

[Shaw66]

29 minutes ago, SCBills said:

We've given Allen an average offensive line, no running game, RD3 Tight End, RD4 WR Diggs and solid vet players at Slot & Gadget. 
 

We keep pouring asset after asset into the Defense.  
 

We just feel it’s time to take a swing and do a solid for JA17.  
 

Maybe we get to tomorrow night and find out it was just going to be way too expensive, but if #25 and next years RD1 can get us Jameson Williams… a seemingly perfect fit for this Offense… I’m doing it with no hesitation. 

I'm not trading next year's #1, but this year's 1 and 3 to move up to 20 if he's there is a no brainer.

[Dr. Who]

Just now, Shaw66 said:

I'm not trading next year's #1, but this year's 1 and 3 to move up to 20 if he's there is a no brainer.

Go listen to the first twenty minutes of today's NFL Live. Jameson Williams is well worth trading a late first rounder from 2023. If we don't, someone else (like KC) will.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

8 minutes ago, 4merper4mer said:

I heard a rumor that the rumor thread is now a dissertation on skill sets and schemes.

That’s just a rumor.

[Shaw66]

5 minutes ago, glazeduck said:

A lot of mostly good thoughts here, but I think by aligning player type to player type, you're overcomplicating things. First of all Pringle and Hardman are their 3 and 4 -- sometimes their 4 and 5 with Kelce and pass-catching RBs in the formations, so there's that. While Diggs is comparable in talent to those guys, Davis is not (so we're already losing in your apples:apples) AND it's underestimating the stress that Hill's freakish speed puts on the defense. Diggs might be the more polished/talented player, but he doesn't force the defense's hand like Hill does. So in many ways, to what you're saying, we're already -2.

 

If you want to identify speed, then fine. Yes, McBeane has said many times they'd like to get faster, and I believe them. But there's only so many talents like Hill out there. YES, you can find guys who run fast 40s, but that's not a particularly valuable skill if they don't have the route running ability, the ability to setup dbs, the hands, etc. If all we're looking for to make safeties respect Josh Allen nukes is a guy to run windsprints, then trade a 6th rd pick for Jalen Raeger or sign Will Fuller. 

 

What we should be (and I think McBeane ARE) looking for, is guys who can create mismatches and strain defenses. As I mentioned, speed is one way, but there are others (again, already mentioned those). 

 

To draft a guy early with a fast 40 because we have a slim chance at getting the guy we want feels VERY silly to me when there are more talented options who have better chances as panning out and providing advantages in other ways. 

I dont disagree at all about speed for speed's sake.  That's why I say he has to be a player.  If Hardman is an example, he can be found through round one and into 2, but not beyond that without a lot of luck.

 

But I don't think mismatches alone are what McBeane or I want.  They want to stretch the field, so they need speed mismatches.  McKenzie has some speed but not the receiver talent. They need a good receiver with deep speed.

 

I wasn't talking about finding a Hill.  As I said, I'm not copying the Chiefs.  What I said is their deep speed is the model.   Bills need to do what the Chiefs did - spend draft capital on a guy like Hardman, rather than a shot in the dark like Stephenson.

5 minutes ago, Dr. Who said:

Go listen to the first twenty minutes of today's NFL Live. Jameson Williams is well worth trading a late first rounder from 2023. If we don't, someone else (like KC) will.

May be true, and I won't be looking for a bridge to jump from if it happens, but I don't like doing it for anyone other than a qb.

 

He does dovetail nicely with Diggs's contract.  He'd step into the #1 spot as he gets his big contract and we kiss Diggs goodbye.

[SCBills]

14 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I'm not trading next year's #1, but this year's 1 and 3 to move up to 20 if he's there is a no brainer.

I just don’t think he lasts to 20.  If he is, I’ll be losing my mind hoping we trade up.  
 

KC, with their draft capital seems like a potential prime candidate to move up and get him. 
 

Personally, I don’t see #25 and any late RD1 guy next year (combined) being more of a building block to win Super Bowls than Jameson Williams. 
 

I certainly get the apprehension of trading future high picks, especially when we will be a team that NEEDS to hit on them moving forward. 

[junior]

31 minutes ago, glazeduck said:

A lot of mostly good thoughts here, but I think by aligning player type to player type, you're overcomplicating things. First of all Pringle and Hardman are their 3 and 4 -- sometimes their 4 and 5 with Kelce and pass-catching RBs in the formations, so there's that. While Diggs is comparable in talent to those guys, Davis is not (so we're already losing in your apples:apples) AND it's underestimating the stress that Hill's freakish speed puts on the defense. Diggs might be the more polished/talented player, but he doesn't force the defense's hand like Hill does. So in many ways, to what you're saying, we're already -2.

 

 

Confused by a bit in this paragraph... are you saying that talent-wise, Byron Pringle and Mecole Hardman are comparable to Diggs? And that Davis is worse than them? Or are you purely saying speed-wise?  

[glazeduck]

15 minutes ago, junior said:

 

Confused by a bit in this paragraph... are you saying that talent-wise, Byron Pringle and Mecole Hardman are comparable to Diggs? And that Davis is worse than them? Or are you purely saying speed-wise?  

2 different statements. Pringle & Hardman were KC's 3/4/5 options. Diggs is somewhat comparable to Hill/Kelce, Davis is not.

[gonzo1105]

24 minutes ago, SCBills said:

I just don’t think he lasts to 20.  If he is, I’ll be losing my mind hoping we trade up.  
 

KC, with their draft capital seems like a potential prime candidate to move up and get him. 
 

Personally, I don’t see #25 and any late RD1 guy next year (combined) being more of a building block to win Super Bowls than Jameson Williams. 
 

I certainly get the apprehension of trading future high picks, especially when we will be a team that NEEDS to hit on them moving forward. 

Right people don’t understand that Williams is a pipe dream. Every team wants a # 1 speed WR. He could go as high as 4 and I say his floor is 15. So then you say okay Gonzo 15 is in range for a trade up. The Saints at 16 have two first round picks, the Packers have two first round picks, the Chiefs have two first round picks. Any of those guys need WRs way worse and have more ammo to get him than the Bills 

[glazeduck]

34 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I dont disagree at all about speed for speed's sake.  That's why I say he has to be a player.  If Hardman is an example, he can be found through round one and into 2, but not beyond that without a lot of luck.

 

But I don't think mismatches alone are what McBeane or I want.  They want to stretch the field, so they need speed mismatches.  McKenzie has some speed but not the receiver talent. They need a good receiver with deep speed.

 

I wasn't talking about finding a Hill.  As I said, I'm not copying the Chiefs.  What I said is their deep speed is the model.   Bills need to do what the Chiefs did - spend draft capital on a guy like Hardman, rather than a shot in the dark like Stephenson.

Okay, go get speed, fine, but if the talent isn't there there's no sense in forcing it. To me it's a class of one in terms of difference-makers who are actually burners. My whole point is that I see no sense in using a valuable pick on a guy who doesn't move the needle just because he's fast. Either pivot your strategy and take a better player (ie. Pickens) or sign a fast free agent and use the draft pick elsewhere.

[YoloinOhio]

On 4/25/2022 at 9:27 PM, IronMaidenBills said:

Sauce? He didn’t do well against Florida either. Not sure if Elam was on him or not. 

 

[gonzo1105]

1 minute ago, YoloinOhio said:

 

This is the one game everyone points to. Now put on other games and you can see his inconsistency 

[YoloinOhio]

Just now, gonzo1105 said:

This is the one game everyone points to. Now put on other games and you can see his inconsistency 

He played hurt in 2021. Are you referring to 2020?

[SCBills]

11 minutes ago, gonzo1105 said:

Right people don’t understand that Williams is a pipe dream. Every team wants a # 1 speed WR. He could go as high as 4 and I say his floor is 15. So then you say okay Gonzo 15 is in range for a trade up. The Saints at 16 have two first round picks, the Packers have two first round picks, the Chiefs have two first round picks. Any of those guys need WRs way worse and have more ammo to get him than the Bills 

This is true.
 

The only counterpoint is that I think teams may be willing to trade back for ammo next year over ammo this year.  Some teams have all but said they’d like to gain draft capital next year with a better QB class. 
 

That would be our saving grace if we’re willing to part with next years RD1. 
 

 

 

Edited April 27, 2022 by SCBills

[YoloinOhio]

 

[Warcodered]

7 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said:

 

Been a lot of smoke being pumped that way if nothing else.