RIP Daryle Lamonica

[Greg S]

3 hours ago, BobbyC81 said:

Unfortunately I didn’t get to see The Bomber as a Buffalo Bill.  Vaguely recall him as a Raider.  I remember Blanda more because I remember one Raiders season in the early 70s where Blanda won several games in the last minute, both as a kicker and a QB.

 

He was before my time as well. My earliest memories of the Bills was the 70's during the OJ years. Just reading the posts from the fans who saw him play you could tell he was a special player and a class act as a person.

[Chandler#81]

13 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Strictly from a one-move basis..........trading the Mahomes pick to KC was worse.

 

There is no guarantee that Buffalo wouldn't have become a bad team with Lamonica as the roster aged out...........it wasn't nearly as much of a QB driven league then and even so, Lamonica never won a SB.

 

Mahomes has won a SB............and it's technically harder to do that now than it was pre-expansion in Lamonica's days...........and Mahomes directly blocked the Bills from advancing in the playoffs and likely the SB twice already.    

 

But both trades are examples of why you should never risk giving a conference rival a tremendous QB prospect.

Pffft.😤 Revisionist history. Nobody believed he’d be THIS  good or he’d have went #1 overall-AND we got Tre White from the trade along with picks that helped us move up the following year for OUR QB.

53 minutes ago, eball said:

 

Yeah, I hear ya, but I still think there’s a hell of a lot of 20/20 hindsight that goes on with respect to Mahomes and how “can’t miss” of a prospect he was.

 

I’ll reserve judgment on how the Bills and Chiefs fared from that trade at the end of Allen’s and Mahomes’ careers, not now.

 

This.

[Bob in STL]

17 hours ago, eball said:

Worst trade in Bills history, right?  That's what my dad always said.

It really was.   

 

Lamonica was excellent every time he got to play.  Bailed Kemp out numerous times.  Imagine the Bills not making that trade and hiring a competent coach to replace Lou Saban.  There were still many good players on the roster from the mid 60's but we had nothing at QB for too long.  The Bills really sunk low in '67 and after.  

 

 

[Bob in STL]

3 hours ago, dwight in philly said:

In this case i do believe he played a part because i believe Harvey Johnson was a GM  in name only.. i could be wrong. but one got the impression after Saban left it was because of his inability to get along with Ralph. I am not a guy who historically would "blame Ralph" as was prevalent back then, just an assumption in this situation.

This was not on Ralph.   Saban did not get along with a lot of people.   Look at his career moves, he did not stay anywhere too long.  Ralph hired Saban back again in 72-73 and then Lou bolted again, right when the team got good.   

[Mickey]

I remember when Josh was drafted I used Lamonica as an example of how successful a QB can be despite having a low completion percentage in an argument with one of the many acolytes of the Church of the Holy Completion Percentage who just couldn't get over our not drafting the other Josh. 

 

 

Edited April 22, 2022 by Mickey

[dwight in philly]

45 minutes ago, Bob in STL said:

This was not on Ralph.   Saban did not get along with a lot of people.   Look at his career moves, he did not stay anywhere too long.  Ralph hired Saban back again in 72-73 and then Lou bolted again, right when the team got good.   

I can agree about Saban and his history.. but i just cant accept that Harvey Johnson and Joel Collier Independent of Ralph , pulled this off.. And again, im not a"Blame Ralph" guy at all 

[Warcodered]

 

[BADOLBILZ]

3 hours ago, eball said:

 

Yeah, I hear ya, but I still think there’s a hell of a lot of 20/20 hindsight that goes on with respect to Mahomes and how “can’t miss” of a prospect he was.

 

I’ll reserve judgment on how the Bills and Chiefs fared from that trade at the end of Allen’s and Mahomes’ careers, not now.

 

 

There is nothing but hindsight with Lamonica.........and the truth is he was pretty awful in Buffalo.   Even by the standards of the day his numbers were ghastly. 

 

He was a poor man's version of JP Losman.........big armed deep ball specialists who both played 4 years in Buffalo and only flashed starter potential briefly in year 2.

 

Lamonica turned into an All Pro in the more conducive situation with a growing football power in Oakland.

 

Buffalo was not on a trajectory of making good decisions or developing players at that time.    See how they horribly mismanaged OJ Simpson early on.   For all the talk about "would Mahomes have made it in Buffalo" there is very little mention about how incompetent the late 60's early 70's Bills were becoming as an organization.

 

As for waiting out Allen and Mahomes careers.........Allen has nothing to do with the Mahomes trade.   

 

Getting Allen was as much of a lucky bounce as anything............had the Bills gotten a QB in the 1968 draft and then defied their growing incompetence and gotten beaten by Oakland repeatedly the Lamonica trade still looks just as terrible in hindsight.

 

Unfortunately those late 60's Bills didn't have the luck to have QB's fall to them.............the well went dry at QB for a few years.

 

When a great QB draft happened in 1971.........the Bills had the 4th pick in a draft when Jim Plunkett, Archie Manning and Dan Pastorini went 1-2-3.    

 

Maybe Beane trades up there and makes some of his own luck..........but hell 1971 was 5 years into Lamonica's brief 6 years as the starting QB in Oakland..........and he had already been in notable decline by then.

 

Which brings me to waiting out careers.............I don't know about you but a year then = a year now as a fan............and Mahomes is now entering the 6th year of his career.   

 

And he's just getting started.  

 

That trade has played out almost as far as the Lamonica deal did ALREADY.

 

I love me some Josh Allen but that Mahomes trade might have cost Buffalo 2 Super Bowls already...........the Lamonica trade, by comparison,  helped the Raiders more than it directly hurt the Bills.

[BADOLBILZ]

3 hours ago, Chandler#81 said:

Pffft.😤 Revisionist history. Nobody believed he’d be THIS  good or he’d have went #1 overall-AND we got Tre White from the trade along with picks that helped us move up the following year for OUR QB.

 

If anyone believed Allen would be this good he'd have went #1 overall......right?   Bills should have sold the farm to get to #1.......what were they thinking? 

 

And the fact is that NONE of the picks acquired in the Patrick Mahomes deal were used to get Josh Allen.

 

A team that has never won a SB got Tre White and fan favorite Tremaine Edmunds in exchange for a lock future HOF SB winning QB.

 

What's revisionist is overselling the Lamonica trade.

 

Lamonica was awful in Buffalo..........almost bad enough to be released outright.........and there were rumors about things he did that fractured the locker room.

 

It turned out to be a GREAT trade for Oakland but I've seen people say it changed the trajectory of the two organizations for a decade and that is INSANE.    

 

Lamonica had 3 great seasons and then 3 good ones in Oakland and he was DONE............and Oakland was a rising power and making TONS of good, shrewd decisions because at the time,  their owner Al Davis was a football man on top of his game and all he cared about was WINNING.

 

Contrast that with......ahem.......Ralph.

 

The Bills organization was circling the drain..........Lamonica wasn't going to carry that team thru the years of incompetence that were to come...........it simply wasn't a QB driven league where you could expect that then.

Edited April 22, 2022 by BADOLBILZ

[Shaw66]

20 hours ago, eball said:

Worst trade in Bills history, right?  That's what my dad always said.

In terms of actual outcomes, it probably was the worst trade in Bills history.   At the time, it made a lot of sense. 

 

Your dad probably was someone who wanted Kemp to go to the bench and Lamonica to start.   It was a raging debate for a couple of years.   There were arguments on both sides, and the coaches clearly valued Kemp's maturity to Lamonica's occasional loose-cannon on-field approach.  

 

But the trade itself was obviously a win-now approach.  The Bills had the best defense in the league, and they struggled on offense in a league that was offense-dominated.  First the Oilers and Chargers, then the Chiefs.  It was clear that the Bills needed to upgrade their offense.  By getting Flores to go with Kemp, the Bills figured they'd have at least on veteran to pull the trigger on an upgraded offense.  What was the upgrade?  Art Powell.   He was a true star in the AFL.   Not Lance Alworth, Otis Taylor, but right up there as a top receiver.  Look at his numbers - 1300, 1400 yards year after in a 14-game season.   The whole point was to goose an offense that needed to match points with the Chiefs (sound familiar?), so that the Bills could beat the Chiefs and go to Super Bowl II.   What happened after that just didn't seem to matter.  

 

Problem was, Powell was washed up or quit playing, Flores's best season (which weren't great) were behind him, and the Bills fell completely flat.   

 

Would it have been different with Lamonica as the signal caller?  Almost certainly.   He was just so dynamic that he caused things to happen on the field.   Would he have taken the Bills Super Bowl?   No one knows, but at least they would have been a threat.  

[Jamie Mueller]

Never saw Lamonica play with the Bills... but this guy was a childhood hero of mine when he was a star with Oakland.  Great player.

[Nitro]

I remember he and Kemp vying for the starting QB job.   The Mad Bomber blossomed in Oakland and was a fun QB to watch.  Fond memories of him.   RIP

[eball]

3 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

As for waiting out Allen and Mahomes careers.........Allen has nothing to do with the Mahomes trade.   

 

Sure he does.  By not taking Mahomes or another QB high in the 2017 draft the Bills were banking on getting theirs the following year.  One decision directly led to the other.

 

As I said...I'll judge whether or not that trade was "awful" for the Bills when we can look back at the totality of both QBs' careers.

 

[Chandler#81]

4 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

If anyone believed Allen would be this good he'd have went #1 overall......right?   Bills should have sold the farm to get to #1.......what were they thinking? 

 

There was much speculation that Allen would go #1. Tell me the 6 teams who drafted before us didn’t wish they took Josh now. Ditto for Mahomes. He didn’t go #1 overall. 
Personally, I have zero regrets not taking Mahomes. Won’t dispute his play, just don’t care for him and our guy is better.

[Wheels Not So Golden Now]

4 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

In terms of actual outcomes, it probably was the worst trade in Bills history.   At the time, it made a lot of sense. 

 

Your dad probably was someone who wanted Kemp to go to the bench and Lamonica to start.   It was a raging debate for a couple of years.   There were arguments on both sides, and the coaches clearly valued Kemp's maturity to Lamonica's occasional loose-cannon on-field approach.  

 

But the trade itself was obviously a win-now approach.  The Bills had the best defense in the league, and they struggled on offense in a league that was offense-dominated.  First the Oilers and Chargers, then the Chiefs.  It was clear that the Bills needed to upgrade their offense.  By getting Flores to go with Kemp, the Bills figured they'd have at least on veteran to pull the trigger on an upgraded offense.  What was the upgrade?  Art Powell.   He was a true star in the AFL.   Not Lance Alworth, Otis Taylor, but right up there as a top receiver.  Look at his numbers - 1300, 1400 yards year after in a 14-game season.   The whole point was to goose an offense that needed to match points with the Chiefs (sound familiar?), so that the Bills could beat the Chiefs and go to Super Bowl II.   What happened after that just didn't seem to matter.  

 

Problem was, Powell was washed up or quit playing, Flores's best season (which weren't great) were behind him, and the Bills fell completely flat.   

 

Would it have been different with Lamonica as the signal caller?  Almost certainly.   He was just so dynamic that he caused things to happen on the field.   Would he have taken the Bills Super Bowl?   No one knows, but at least they would have been a threat.  

I remember one of the Buffalo Evening News sports writers (Larry Felser?, Steve Weller?) writing at the end of the year, "All I want for Hannukah is to get back Daryle Lamonic." R.I.P. Daryle.

[Wheels Not So Golden Now]

4 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

In terms of actual outcomes, it probably was the worst trade in Bills history.   At the time, it made a lot of sense. 

 

Your dad probably was someone who wanted Kemp to go to the bench and Lamonica to start.   It was a raging debate for a couple of years.   There were arguments on both sides, and the coaches clearly valued Kemp's maturity to Lamonica's occasional loose-cannon on-field approach.  

 

But the trade itself was obviously a win-now approach.  The Bills had the best defense in the league, and they struggled on offense in a league that was offense-dominated.  First the Oilers and Chargers, then the Chiefs.  It was clear that the Bills needed to upgrade their offense.  By getting Flores to go with Kemp, the Bills figured they'd have at least on veteran to pull the trigger on an upgraded offense.  What was the upgrade?  Art Powell.   He was a true star in the AFL.   Not Lance Alworth, Otis Taylor, but right up there as a top receiver.  Look at his numbers - 1300, 1400 yards year after in a 14-game season.   The whole point was to goose an offense that needed to match points with the Chiefs (sound familiar?), so that the Bills could beat the Chiefs and go to Super Bowl II.   What happened after that just didn't seem to matter.  

 

Problem was, Powell was washed up or quit playing, Flores's best season (which weren't great) were behind him, and the Bills fell completely flat.   

 

Would it have been different with Lamonica as the signal caller?  Almost certainly.   He was just so dynamic that he caused things to happen on the field.   Would he have taken the Bills Super Bowl?   No one knows, but at least they would have been a threat.  

Glenn Bass (Duby's running mate) was part of the trade as well.  You can read about how the trade was viewed during the '67 season here: A big raid that really paid off - Sports Illustrated Vault | SI.com Needless to say, it wasn't looking good for the Bills.

Edited April 22, 2022 by Wheels Not So Golden Now

[BADOLBILZ]

1 hour ago, eball said:

 

Sure he does.  By not taking Mahomes or another QB high in the 2017 draft the Bills were banking on getting theirs the following year.  One decision directly led to the other.

 

As I said...I'll judge whether or not that trade was "awful" for the Bills when we can look back at the totality of both QBs' careers.

 

 

 

The trade itself was awful.......the Bills fleeced themselves..........that isn't debatable.........Mahomes has been the most valued player in the entire NFL over the last 4 seasons.    

 

Since the NFL is so QB centric post 2010 rules changes.........young Mahomes with the promise of 15+ more years of greatness in front of him probably has had more trade value than any player in NFL HISTORY to this point.   

 

In return the Bills got a really good zone CB...........who was probably worth a late first to mid 2nd rounder in trade pre-injury because he is on a team friendly contract..............and a LB who is worth somewhere between a 3rd and a 6th depending on if the Bills would pick up some of his salary?

 

Mahomes would probably be able to ask for a portion of ownership from a team who wanted to sign him if he were a free agent. 

 

I love Josh Allen.......approved of the pick from the outset and defended his early struggles.......he was the highest ceiling prospect/QB in that draft and that's how you are supposed to play it, IMO.  Great draft pick.

 

We all hope that maybe he has leveled up with or passed Mahomes individually and that things will start changing in the results column and that they will have at least parallel career lengths at the top of their abilities.

 

But they both became NFL starters in 2018 and the ledger says Mahomes has 1 ring and 2 SB appearances.........Allen/Buffalo have none of those..........and Mahomes has literally knocked Allen and the Bills out of the playoffs TWICE already.

 

Not only is Mahomes GREAT.........he has been GREAT at the direct expense of the Bills.

 

Whether we all "live to regret" the trade isn't the point.........we all hope that we don't..........but it doesn't change the fact that the trade itself was awful.

 

[eball]

3 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

The trade itself was awful.......the Bills fleeced themselves..........that isn't debatable.........Mahomes has been the most valued player in the entire NFL over the last 4 seasons.    

 

Since the NFL is so QB centric post 2010 rules changes.........young Mahomes with the promise of 15+ more years of greatness in front of him probably has had more trade value than any player in NFL HISTORY to this point.   

 

In return the Bills got a really good zone CB...........who was probably worth a late first to mid 2nd rounder in trade pre-injury because he is on a team friendly contract..............and a LB who is worth somewhere between a 3rd and a 6th depending on if the Bills would pick up some of his salary?

 

Mahomes would probably be able to ask for a portion of ownership from a team who wanted to sign him if he were a free agent. 

 

I love Josh Allen.......approved of the pick from the outset and defended his early struggles.......he was the highest ceiling prospect/QB in that draft and that's how you are supposed to play it, IMO.  Great draft pick.

 

We all hope that maybe he has leveled up with or passed Mahomes individually and that things will start changing in the results column and that they will have at least parallel career lengths at the top of their abilities.

 

But they both became NFL starters in 2018 and the ledger says Mahomes has 1 ring and 2 SB appearances.........Allen/Buffalo have none of those..........and Mahomes has literally knocked Allen and the Bills out of the playoffs TWICE already.

 

Not only is Mahomes GREAT.........he has been GREAT at the direct expense of the Bills.

 

Whether we all "live to regret" the trade isn't the point.........we all hope that we don't..........but it doesn't change the fact that the trade itself was awful.

 

 

I've got three names for you.  Tyreek Hill, Travis Kelce, and Andy Reid.

 

Your argument that the reason this trade was "awful" for the Bills is that Mahomes beat the Bills in the playoffs twice is specious.

 

It's fine, we don't need to argue.  We disagree and I can live with that.

 

[stuvian]

those $42 season tickets Lamonica mentions in the video sound like a great deal. I'll call the ticket office and see if it's still available

[Sierra Foothills]

A few nuggets from the Buffalo News article on Lamonica's passing:

• Lamonica was a fan favorite in Buffalo, even though he started only four games in his four Bills’ seasons, winning all of them. However, he had a knack for bailing the team out. In 1964, Lamonica rallied the Bills to win in Weeks 4, 7, 8 and 9, and the Bills were 9-0.
• “I talked to Ralph Wilson the night before,” Lamonica told The Buffalo News in 2020. “And he told me, ‘You’re going to come back and be our starting quarterback.’ And eight hours later I was traded. I was absolutely devastated.”
• The day of the trade, then Buffalo Evening News sports editor Charley Young wrote: "One nagging question remains, however. Whoever has wound up winning in any deal with Al Davis, the Mr. Smart of the American League operators?"
• In a little over six seasons as the Oakland QB, he compiled a regular-season record of 66-16-6, the best winning percentage of any starting QB in the Super Bowl era with at least 75 starts.
• Lamonica led the Raiders to a 13-1 record in ’67 and the won the AFL Player of the Year Award. Oakland lost Super Bowl II to the Green Bay Packers. Lamonica helped the Raiders to the AFL championship game in 1968 and 1969 and the AFC championship game in 1970.
• Lamonica led pro football with 145 touchdown passes from ’67 through ’72 – 24 more than the next best quarterback, Fran Tarkenton. He still holds the Raiders record with 34 touchdown passes in a single season (1969).
• The 6-foot-3, 215-pound Lamonica had some huge playoff performances. He threw five TD passes in a 41-6 win over Kansas City in 1968 and a record six the following season against Houston. Only Steve Young and Tom Brady have matched Lamonica's six TD passes in a playoff game, and only Patrick Mahomes and Kurt Warner have multiple games with at least five.
• Lamonica also played a starring role in one of the AFL’s most famous games in 1968. He threw four TD passes, including the go-ahead score to Charlie Smith, in a 43-32 win over the Jets in what is known as the "Heidi Game" because NBC cut away from the finish on the East Coast before the Raiders comeback to show the children's movie.
• “When I heard the nickname The Mad Bomber, I didn’t like it much,” Lamonica told The News. “I thought, ‘What a dumb name; it sounds like I don’t know where I’m throwing the ball.’ The next week, I get under center and I make eye contact with the cornerback – and he backs up three steps. And I thought, ‘Well, OK, I like that.’ ”
• In his first game back in Buffalo against the Bills, the 1968 season-opener, Lamonica led the Raiders to a 48-6 victory. The Bills fired head coach Joel Collier after the game.