Joe B article about cornerbacks

[Bill from NYC]

5 hours ago, whorlnut said:

For those that have The Athletic, go read Joe B’s most recent article. He argues why corner at 25 isnt the slam dunk many are making it out to be. It’s a good read. 

I disagree. There is nothing better than a first round corner, even at #1 overall. The Bills historically had nothing but smashing success with 1st round defensive backs. Think of all of the games that McKelvin, Whitner, Gilmore, and the rest have won for us. 

I am kinda hoping that we mortgage the future and take that safety from Notre Dame, but otoh maybe not because he isn't a corner, and you can't have too many corners. Just ask Marv Levy!

[SoTier]

5 hours ago, whorlnut said:

That’s my point though…get weapons that help Allen instead of putting it all on him. Make his life as easy as possible. Keep stacking long term weapons on offense. We saw too many times last year that he literally won the game on his own. He was the leading rusher way too often. That isn’t sustainable. 

 

Totally agree. The defense is good enough. We can get by with a Jag at CB2…which is exactly what every McD led defense has done back to his days in Carolina. And he is the best in the league at getting the most out of DBs. 

 

This is exactly why I support improving the running game.  I don't care exactly how the Bills do it -- drafting a top IOL prospect (Johnson or Linderbaum) or the top RB prospect (Hall) in this draft -- but they need to protect Allen by giving him a more diverse offense so that his designed runs are much fewer and so that the Bills can run the ball down other teams' throats if weather conditions (like the NE game) or defensive scheme makes passing difficult.   I don't want the Bills to turn into a 50/50 pass/run team and I certainly don't want them to morph into a run first team, but I want them to be able to have a good enough run game for the RBs to regularly run for 4-6 yards a crack with the threat of one of them breaking a long gainer on the ground ever present. 

 

 

44 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said:

I disagree. There is nothing better than a first round corner, even at #1 overall. The Bills historically had nothing but smashing success with 1st round defensive backs. Think of all of the games that McKelvin, Whitner, Gilmore, and the rest have won for us. 

I am kinda hoping that we mortgage the future and take that safety from Notre Dame, but otoh maybe not because he isn't a corner, and you can't have too many corners. Just ask Marv Levy!

 

Love the sarcasm!!!!  

Edited April 20, 2022 by SoTier

[Ayjent]

Does he mention Tariq Woolen bc he is the type of player I can see the Bills drafting to develop

[whorlnut]

25 minutes ago, Ayjent said:

Does he mention Tariq Woolen bc he is the type of player I can see the Bills drafting to develop

I really like guys like martin Emerson, cam Taylor-Britt, and the McCollum kid from Sam Houston state. Those are the types of guys that can be had in the third and can be developed into studs with the elite traits that they possess 

[OldTimer1960]

1 hour ago, whorlnut said:

I really like guys like martin Emerson, cam Taylor-Britt, and the McCollum kid from Sam Houston state. Those are the types of guys that can be had in the third and can be developed into studs with the elite traits that they possess 

What elite traits does Emerson have besides good height?

[Florida Bills Fanatic]

6 hours ago, eball said:

 

Why would you presume the only way for the Bills to avoid that scenario is to draft a CB in the 1st round?  Good god, man, CBs are available in rounds other than the 1st and there a bunch of veterans out there to sign post-draft.

You are correct about other options being available.  The Bills and others may be looking at this in a more unique way.  Suppose the Bills are looking at replacing White at the end of his contract (due to age and injury) and they want to have the heir apparent on the roster and familiar with the defense.  In that case, selecting a CB in round one makes perfect sense.  The Bills may also have identified some later round sleepers that have talent and project to be available on day two or later.  In that case, waiting on a CB makes good sense.  My point on this is that none of us know exactly how the Bills see this coming together.  We won't know for sure until Roger reads pick 25 to all of us.  What we do know for sure is that Beane is not going to allow the defense to start the season with a undermanned secondary.  I trust Beane and I suggest the rest of us should as well.

[NoSaint]

8 hours ago, whorlnut said:

For those that have The Athletic, go read Joe B’s most recent article. He argues why corner at 25 isnt the slam dunk many are making it out to be. It’s a good read. 

no link or summary. Well done.

[BADOLBILZ]

11 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

no link or summary. Well done.

 

Points from the article:

 

- Bills haven't prioritized CB2 in the draft or with anything but short term UFA deals under McDermott.

 

- "At the NFL owners’ meetings, McDermott made it a point to start the conversation with White when asked about the need at cornerback and said White is “doing well.” The logical deduction is that their star cornerback is still at the top of their minds when thinking about the position, which likely can be seen as optimistic for the season."

 

- If White indeed is on schedule he should miss no more than 1 month........in a long season.........and they played well for more than a month without him down the stretch in 2021.

 

- "Since McDermott has become the head coach, the Bills have hesitated to put a complete starter’s workload on a young player, regardless of how early he was drafted........The only exceptions to the rookie rule have been White, Zay Jones and Tremaine Edmunds, though they all started because the Bills would have been utterly non-competitive without them in the lineup."    Drafting a CB at #25 would be a move for a full time starter.

 

- "The in-house development is another important piece to the cornerback puzzle. Perhaps more than any other position, the Bills have a history of developing their cornerbacks to reach their potential."   Points out that even Cam Lewis has been a useful depth piece and that they really like McCloud and Griffin.

 

- "But taking (a CB) to take one because of a 2022 need is how teams can get in trouble. The Bills usually swing for the fences with their first-round pick, too, opting for something that isn’t on their roster rather than just settling on a need or for more of a finished product."

 

- "They can find an above-average-to-good starter in the second, third or fourth rounds and add value to their defense without spending their top resource on a position in which they haven’t made a worthwhile investment in more than five years. Players such as Kyler Gordon (Washington), Cam Taylor-Britt (Nebraska), Joshua Williams (Fayetteville State), Damarri Mathis (Pittsburgh), Zyon McCollum (Sam Houston State), Akayleb Evans (Missouri) and Martin Emerson (Mississippi State) all satisfy the size and run-defending requirements they generally covet and can likely be had outside of the first round."

 

- "All the historical context, rookie dealings and 2022 factors bring us to this point. Will the Bills take one with their first-round pick? Maybe, if the value is right and they think that player can become a star. But is it an absolute lock based on the above factors? Not even close."

 

[Yantha]

8 hours ago, TheyCallMeAndy said:

I still predict a CB/Safety hybrid 

To play Nickel/Dime?

[billybrew1]

8 hours ago, whorlnut said:

You think the chiefs care about defense?  Haha. They just keep loading up on offensive weapons and overwhelm opposing defenses. I’m more convinced that I’m today’s nfl, that is the way to go. 

Their defense won them that super bowl victory over San Fran without a doubt.

Defense wins Super Bowls.

The Rams D won them the Super Bowl last season.

The best teams throughout nfl history have balance.

The Bills DL this year is a big question mark….

It could be slightly below average all the way up to very good….

We’ll see.

And that is going to go a very long way in deciding whether we can win it all or not.

[MrEpsYtown]

2 hours ago, OldTimer1960 said:

What elite traits does Emerson have besides good height?

Yeah I don’t think he has amazing traits. His appeal is that he is plug and play. Not much of a learning curve or adjustment. These long, athletic, fast small school dudes who only know how to play man sometimes take awhile.  

[NoSaint]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Points from the article:

 

- Bills haven't prioritized CB2 in the draft or with anything but short term UFA deals under McDermott.

 

- "At the NFL owners’ meetings, McDermott made it a point to start the conversation with White when asked about the need at cornerback and said White is “doing well.” The logical deduction is that their star cornerback is still at the top of their minds when thinking about the position, which likely can be seen as optimistic for the season."

 

- If White indeed is on schedule he should miss no more than 1 month........in a long season.........and they played well for more than a month without him down the stretch in 2021.

 

- "Since McDermott has become the head coach, the Bills have hesitated to put a complete starter’s workload on a young player, regardless of how early he was drafted........The only exceptions to the rookie rule have been White, Zay Jones and Tremaine Edmunds, though they all started because the Bills would have been utterly non-competitive without them in the lineup."    Drafting a CB at #25 would be a move for a full time starter.

 

- "The in-house development is another important piece to the cornerback puzzle. Perhaps more than any other position, the Bills have a history of developing their cornerbacks to reach their potential."   Points out that even Cam Lewis has been a useful depth piece and that they really like McCloud and Griffin.

 

- "But taking (a CB) to take one because of a 2022 need is how teams can get in trouble. The Bills usually swing for the fences with their first-round pick, too, opting for something that isn’t on their roster rather than just settling on a need or for more of a finished product."

 

- "They can find an above-average-to-good starter in the second, third or fourth rounds and add value to their defense without spending their top resource on a position in which they haven’t made a worthwhile investment in more than five years. Players such as Kyler Gordon (Washington), Cam Taylor-Britt (Nebraska), Joshua Williams (Fayetteville State), Damarri Mathis (Pittsburgh), Zyon McCollum (Sam Houston State), Akayleb Evans (Missouri) and Martin Emerson (Mississippi State) all satisfy the size and run-defending requirements they generally covet and can likely be had outside of the first round."

 

- "All the historical context, rookie dealings and 2022 factors bring us to this point. Will the Bills take one with their first-round pick? Maybe, if the value is right and they think that player can become a star. But is it an absolute lock based on the above factors? Not even close."

 

thank you, sir.

 

while an immediate short term need I can’t help but think that in 4 years when making a decision on this players second contract, tre white will be 31 and finishing his current contract.

 

if you hit on a guy, having that 5 year cycle of a cb getting paid big bucks paired with a talented guy on a rookie deal isn’t terrible roster construction. 
 

im not stumping for a cb, or saying you reach for a guy deep on your board- but feels like draft value may likely intersect need, both short and long term, with a premium position

[hondo in seattle]

I hope they draft the BPA.   

 

And I hope the BPA is a CB.

[BADOLBILZ]

2 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

thank you, sir.

 

while an immediate short term need I can’t help but think that in 4 years when making a decision on this players second contract, tre white will be 31 and finishing his current contract.

 

if you hit on a guy, having that 5 year cycle of a cb getting paid big bucks paired with a talented guy on a rookie deal isn’t terrible roster construction. 
 

im not stumping for a cb, or saying you reach for a guy deep on your board- but feels like draft value may likely intersect need, both short and long term, with a premium position

 

 

Joe B did also mention that particular aspect as probably the most compelling reason to take a CB.

 

I don't really think that McDuffie or Gordon or Elam are those guys though..............and I don't feel the conviction on Andrew Booth Jr. that I did Tre White who I felt was CB1(over the more gifted Lattimore) and definitely CB1 for the McDermott style of defense...........though I do think Booth should be better than the other 3 and could be very good.

 

I think we can make the mistake of assuming that to get a CB1 they need to go back to the well that got them White.............and in this style of defense I don't think that is the case.   White is a lot more Rhonde Barber than he is a traditional lock-down, island type CB.    You can get the kind of athletic traits needed to be a star in this defense on day 2 or day 3 and I still think they are in position where they can draft and develop rather than reach.

 

An all things being equal.........and I do suspect that there will be WR's that are better prospects than the available CB's......and maybe they even get lucky and a tackle like Penning falls to them.........supporting the QB is the highest organizational priority.

 

The primary focus of the draft is building and maintaining the foundation of the organization.  

[Milanos Milano]

10 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

We are not the chiefs......our HC is a friggen D coordinator...he doesnt think about this the same way you do.

 

And.....he is right and you are wrong

 

If he is right, he will win a super bowl. Still waiting. 

[John from Riverside]

9 minutes ago, IronMaidenBills said:

 

If he is right, he will win a super bowl. Still waiting. 

Sorry to say but that’s not the way that it works there have been many good GM’s with great plans that never won Super Bowls if Brandon Beane never wins the Super Bowl it doesn’t mean that he wasn’t one of the top GM’s in the league

[Richard Noggin]

7 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

I think the difference between now and 2017 was that McDermott felt like he had to do a full re-tool of his secondary.

 

The 2016 Bills defense featured 2 quality man cover CB's in Gilmore and Darby but the safety situation was a black hole..........they were the weak link of Rex defense.

 

So they spent real money on 2 safeties..........they are viewed in retrospect as value deals but the deal Poyer got in particular was out of left field.

 

Then they (carelessly) let Gilmore leave without a tag and trade..........and were left with nobody who fit the scheme at CB.

 

White was zone CB1 in that 2017 draft..........some saw him as a reach because he didn't have great man cover skills.........but his availability at #27 in 2017 would be the near equivalent of zone CB1 Sauce Gardner being available at #25 this year........but at the time a zone CB had less value than today, IMO.

 

Now,  with some offenses capable of lining up three guys who would have all been WR1 types in 2017...........I think teams are willing to invest a bit more in a zone CB because it's not practical to play man against some teams.  

 

So taking White was not just like taking a flyer on McDuffie/Gordon or even the well regarded Booth Jr............I think in this draft White would have gone between picks 10-15.

 

I just don't expect the Bills to get THAT kind of value at zone CB at #25 this year..............but, as always, there are A LOT of good zone CB prospects.

 

You don't have to take one in round 1 if you can't get THE one.

 

I think you're both overstating the potential rise of "zone CB1" draft value AND misrepresenting Sauce Gardner as a "zone CB1" prospect whose value is on par with a Tre White prospect. Gardner is a top 5-10 pick with measurables, tape, and man/zone scheme flex. Tre White was a borderline 1st/2nd guy with decent measurables, tape, and less scheme flex. 

 

Overall, you probably have a point about the obvious rise of zone coverage schemes, but I don't agree that this trend devalues CBs who can also flourish in man coverage. It might even reinforce their value as scheme diverse players who allow coordinators more creativity to mix up their game plans. But it definitely does NOT place a Tre White draft prospect on par with a Sauce Gardner. 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

The lack of drafting CBs/DBs high makes me believe they could draft multiple DBs high in this draft. 

[machine gun kelly]

17 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

I am a Andrew Booth fan at 25....if he is not there I could see us going in like three different directions.

 

but

 

To be clear there are three things going on here

 

- This draft has good corners....it only makes sense that we could draft one

 

- We are in a champship window

 

- Tre White is probably not starting the season.....Dane jackons is a 2nd year starter.....we let Wallace go free agency.   We are NOT rolling out Dane Jackson and Cam Lewis when all of these other AFC teams have been biulding up their offensive weapons.

Booth may not be a bad pick.  That hernia will probably be just fine and would’ve been picked higher if he did not have surgery.  It’s not an Achilles or ACL.

[Thurman#1]

18 hours ago, whorlnut said:

For those that have The Athletic, go read Joe B’s most recent article. He argues why corner at 25 isnt the slam dunk many are making it out to be. It’s a good read. 

 

 

Yup, liked the article, and it totally makes sense.