Joe B article about cornerbacks

[MAJBobby]

List of UFAs still out there

 

Trae Waynes, 29

Joe Haden, 33

Kyle Fuller, 30

Chris Harris, 32

Janoris Jenkins, 33

Bryce Callahan, 30

Jason Verrett, 30

Kevin King, 26

Xavier Rhodes, 31

Jimmy Smith, 33

AJ Bouye, 30

Travis Carrie, 31

Vernon Hargreaves, 26

Darryl Roberts, 31

Ryan Smith, 28

Josh Norman, 34

Richard Sherman, 34

Nevin Lawson, 30

Maurice Canady, 27

Jason McCourty, 34

Mackensie Alexander, 28

Fabian Moreau, 28

Desmond Trufant, 31

Robert Alford, 33

Greg Mabin, 27

Torry McTyer, 27

Donte Deayon, 28

Joshua Kalu, 26

Kevin Peterson, 28

Bessuan Austin, 25

Trill Williams, 22

Chris Lammons, 26

Nick Nelson, 25

Grayland Arnold, 24

Dane Cruikshank, 26

Demarkus Acy, 23

Gavin Heslop, 24

Khalil Dorsey, 24

Damon Arnette, 25

Kareem Orr, 25

 

Look for the older Vets not to sign until into Camp no reason for them to sign at this point before OTAs are complete.

 

[34-78-83]

I feel like I like Elam more than most here at CB and I'd be OK with him at pick 25 for a nice rookie contract savings (as long as his floor is as high as it seems to be). I see him as slightly better than Booth but I do like Booth too. I am really just comparing their college career highlights though so... could be off a bit. I really like Elam's size , hips and IQ for the position at around 25. Overall I'd rather see a WR or a OL at our spot though.

[OldTimer1960]

Just now, 34-78-83 said:

I feel like I like Elam more than most here at CB and I'd be OK with him at pick 25 for a nice rookie contract savings (as long as his floor is as high as it seems to be). I see him as slightly better than Booth but I do like Booth too. I am really just comparing their college career highlights though so... could be off a bit. I really like Elam's size , hips and IQ for the position at around 25. Overall I'd rather see a WR or a OL at our spot though.

I think that Booth and Kyler Gordon are more willing and better tacklers than Elam, but Elam is a good prospect.

[34-78-83]

6 minutes ago, OldTimer1960 said:

I think that Booth and Kyler Gordon are more willing and better tacklers than Elam, but Elam is a good prospect.

Yeah I think you're right. And Booth is certainly more a McDermott DNA type of player. I guess it's just Elam's natural athleticism, recovery speed and reach that has me intrigued. He's not as polished as Booth. I haven't really looked at Gordon.

[NewEra]

12 minutes ago, 34-78-83 said:

I feel like I like Elam more than most here at CB and I'd be OK with him at pick 25 for a nice rookie contract savings (as long as his floor is as high as it seems to be). I see him as slightly better than Booth but I do like Booth too. I am really just comparing their college career highlights though so... could be off a bit. I really like Elam's size , hips and IQ for the position at around 25. Overall I'd rather see a WR or a OL at our spot though.

He’s just not very physical and a bleh tackler.  Booth is quite the opposite in those regards. Beast mode tackler

[OldTimer1960]

3 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Yeah by no means are man cover CB's devalued..........given requisite talent many players can simply learn to play zone and excel........but if you don't have the physical talent to play man you aren't going to turn into a top man cover CB.    Being able to play man is the rarer skill and allows you greater defensive flexibility.

 

And I agree that Sauce Gardner is a better prospect than Tre White was and should be a top 5-10 pick........but I will add that he is proven primarily as a zone CB.........and zone CB1 he is.

 

White was also zone CB1 in that 2017 draft and as I said, he would be a 10-15 guy in this draft........behind Gardner and Stingley(because of his man cover potential).........but IMO White would clearly have ranked ahead of the rest.

 

It's also important to remember that 2017 was not a deep CB group...........for almost all of the draft lead up Tre White was routinely penciled in as a top 35-65 pick in most drafts........rarely if ever a first rounder.    He was a bit of a reach based on the positional values of 2017...........but wouldn't have been today.  

 

An elite zone CB talent like White is slightly more valued now, IMO,  and the success of a guy like him and the Bills defense itself is part of the reason why.

 

But it is still easy to find good to very good ones...........you don't need to pick one in round 1 to find that level of player.

 

So it comes down to how much you prioritize the difference between good and elite........and IMO that is a $$$ issue.

 

That first round pick should be used on guys with $20M-$30M aav upside in 3-4 years.    Like Greg Rousseau.......if he turns into what we think he can be then he's THAT guy.  

 

But if you can't envision yourself COMPELLED to pay that particular CB position top dollar to extend him after 3-4 years then it's not the right pick for you, IMO.

 

Now if Sauce was there........sure I'd want that guy and you budget to pay that guy..........but do you budget to pay those bucks to McDuffie or Gordon based on what you've seen of them?    I do not think they are that level of player.    Booth Jr. is the only one I am on the fence on there.   I think he has some Tre White attributes but I am just not as high on him as I was Tre and I do expect to feel that way about a zone CB.........otherwise I'm taking one at the next level for a lesser value pick.  

But who is going to look like that level of player that will be available at 25?  There, you are probably looking at all the very top WRs gone - maybe injured Jameson Williams will still be there, likely all the top OTs will be gone unless they like someone such as Tyler Smith from Tulsa, you could still see Ojabo (serious injury, 1 year production, poor vs run) or Ebeketie at DE and then a bunch of players at less important positions that fit in the same category that you describe for “zone CB”.  
 

They have to pick someone or trade out of the pick.

[Ayjent]

4 hours ago, 34-78-83 said:

I feel like I like Elam more than most here at CB and I'd be OK with him at pick 25 for a nice rookie contract savings (as long as his floor is as high as it seems to be). I see him as slightly better than Booth but I do like Booth too. I am really just comparing their college career highlights though so... could be off a bit. I really like Elam's size , hips and IQ for the position at around 25. Overall I'd rather see a WR or a OL at our spot though.

Trust me when I say that you wouldn’t like Elam if you were a fan of the team he plays for.  I’m a Gator alum and he is a terrible tackler, and willingness isn’t the concern part it’s his positioning and lack of ability to track in the open field where tackling can be the difference between 5 yards and a TD. 

[John from Riverside]

4 hours ago, MAJBobby said:

List of UFAs still out there

 

Trae Waynes, 29

Joe Haden, 33

Kyle Fuller, 30

Chris Harris, 32

Janoris Jenkins, 33

Bryce Callahan, 30

Jason Verrett, 30

Kevin King, 26

Xavier Rhodes, 31

Jimmy Smith, 33

AJ Bouye, 30

Travis Carrie, 31

Vernon Hargreaves, 26

Darryl Roberts, 31

Ryan Smith, 28

Josh Norman, 34

Richard Sherman, 34

Nevin Lawson, 30

Maurice Canady, 27

Jason McCourty, 34

Mackensie Alexander, 28

Fabian Moreau, 28

Desmond Trufant, 31

Robert Alford, 33

Greg Mabin, 27

Torry McTyer, 27

Donte Deayon, 28

Joshua Kalu, 26

Kevin Peterson, 28

Bessuan Austin, 25

Trill Williams, 22

Chris Lammons, 26

Nick Nelson, 25

Grayland Arnold, 24

Dane Cruikshank, 26

Demarkus Acy, 23

Gavin Heslop, 24

Khalil Dorsey, 24

Damon Arnette, 25

Kareem Orr, 25

 

Look for the older Vets not to sign until into Camp no reason for them to sign at this point before OTAs are complete.

 

Def some guys worth considering on this list.

[Thurman#1]

17 hours ago, MrEpsYtown said:

 

Somebody was talking about those two rookie corners they drafted that year after Norman left. Bradberry, Worley and Sanchez. Bradberry and Worley were starting corners right off the bat. I think Joe B.'s entire article is just semantics and a smokescreen. They said the same thing about Josh and he was starting week 2. Tre started right away. Ed Oliver started right away (I get that the DL rotates). Devin Singletary and Dawson Knox started right away. Dion Dawkins started after a couple of games. Zay Jones started right away. Taron Johnson was the nickel right away. Tremaine Edmunds started right away at 20 years old. Joe B. is wrong here. It is a case by case basis. Yeah maybe they sign a vet at some point, but it just doesn't make a whole lot of sense in my mind to go anywhere but corner in the first. It's a need and there are some really good ones. If the good ones are gone, then you pivot. Don't force it.     

 

 

Josh was starting because of injury. They weren't going to play him early at all till injury forced them to.

 

Bradberry and Worley were starting because there was nobody else. Early, they had some problems.

 

Oliver - and you did mention this but dismissed it a bit - only played 54% of snaps his first year.

 

Singletary started Week one, and next was Week eight. He played very little the first few weeks. Knox didn't start till Week 4. Taron Johnson started two games his rookie year and was inactive twice (he was injured the last three games, which is worth mentioning). Yeah, he is a nickel, but once he wasn't a rookie anymore he started seven games out of 12 active, 11 games and 15 games.

 

Joe is quite right.

 

Edmunds really is the exception. Tre also. Started from minute one. Both were rookies at the start of the rebuild, though. The roster's a lot sounder now.

 

It makes plenty of sense to go elsewhere than corner. Of course, it would also make sense to go corner, but they shouldn't and doubtless don't feel they have to go that way. If Booth or McDuffie are still there, I'd guess they would go that way. But if they're not, or if someone like Jameson Williams falls, I wouldn't be even slightly surprised to see them go another direction.

 

 

Edited April 22, 2022 by Thurman#1

[Thurman#1]

9 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

Def some guys worth considering on this list.

 

 

Yeah, exactly. IMO this is why they haven't been hurrying. Let 'em sit on the vine a while and get ripe. The price will only go down.

[MrEpsYtown]

1 hour ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Josh was starting because of injury. They weren't going to play him early at all till injury forced them to.

 

Bradberry and Worley were starting because there was nobody else. Early, they had some problems.

 

Oliver - and you did mention this but dismissed it a bit - only played 54% of snaps his first year.

 

Singletary started Week one, and next was Week eight. He played very little the first few weeks. Knox didn't start till Week 4. Taron Johnson started two games his rookie year and was inactive twice (he was injured the last three games, which is worth mentioning). Yeah, he is a nickel, but once he wasn't a rookie anymore he started seven games out of 12 active, 11 games and 15 games.

 

Joe is quite right.

 

Edmunds really is the exception. Tre also. Started from minute one. Both were rookies at the start of the rebuild, though. The roster's a lot sounder now.

 

It makes plenty of sense to go elsewhere than corner. Of course, it would also make sense to go corner, but they shouldn't and doubtless don't feel they have to go that way. If Booth or McDuffie are still there, I'd guess they would go that way. But if they're not, or if someone like Jameson Williams falls, I wouldn't be even slightly surprised to see them go another direction.

 

 

Josh took over becuase Peterman was so bad in week 1 that the experiment was over and he was benched. 
 

Great points on Singletary and Johnson. I forgot how much we used Frank Gore! Knox, while technically not starting, (Lee Smith) Knox was getting the highest number of snaps, or splitting snaps at the position, and we also played a lot of 3 wide. Like in 2012, Greg Hardy did not start right away for Carolina but played 80% of the snaps week 1. So Joe using the word starter while implying these guys weren’t relied upon from day 1 is semantics and journalistic BS. 
 

Tremaine for sure and Tre White as you mentioned. Zay Jones, Cody Ford. I still disagree with the premise of the article. I think the reliance on rookie starters depends on a number of factors and I think Joe B. painting the brush implying that McDermott doesn’t rely on rookies is kind of silly. 
 

And I agree with your last paragraph. A lot of people here have kind of analyzed the concept of drafting for need vs BPA. But it all depends on how they put their board together. Do they put a higher emphasis on corner as it is a need? Are those grades higher? In my mind Stingley, Gardner, Booth, McDuffie are instant starters. If any of them are there at 25, I feel like they are the pick. If Stingley is there in the teens I think a trade up could happen. If McDuffie and Booth make it to the early 20s, I could see a mini trade up. If all those guys are gone, or some high caliber player somehow drops I could totally see them pivot, unless they love Elam or Gordon. But to me the most likely scenario is corner round 1. I don’t think it is a complete guarantee, but their board and BPA always seems to conveniently match with need (stuck out on the board and all that). They seem to draft the highest player on their board every time, at least according to Beane. So I feel like their board is built with an emphasis on need. 

 

[GunnerBill]

14 hours ago, OldTimer1960 said:

But who is going to look like that level of player that will be available at 25?  There, you are probably looking at all the very top WRs gone - maybe injured Jameson Williams will still be there, likely all the top OTs will be gone unless they like someone such as Tyler Smith from Tulsa, you could still see Ojabo (serious injury, 1 year production, poor vs run) or Ebeketie at DE and then a bunch of players at less important positions that fit in the same category that you describe for “zone CB”.  
 

They have to pick someone or trade out of the pick.

 

This is the question. Booth is the only corner I'd really love at #25 (I mean I'd love Sauce too but he is definitely gone). I do increasingly think all 5 consensus top WRs will be gone (whether Buffalo loves London or Burks would be a question in any event). All 4 OTs are sure to be gone. Tyler Smith to me projects better at guard, I think he will have issues with holding penalties in the NFL on the island. Not an Ebeketie in round 1 fan. I could live with the idea of Ojabo but there would be plenty of people outraged at another edge and one likely not to play in 2022 at that... 

 

Booth might be the most likely to be there at this stage. Otherwise you are into WR6 and WR7 which is Watson and Dotson for me, or CB4, CB5, CB6.... which is Gordon, McDuffie and McCreary for me... the last of whom is definitely not a scheme fit and McDuffie doesn't have the measurables the Bills look for. 

 

On draft day last year a Chiefs fan asked me who I thought we'd take at #30 and I got it down to Etienne or Rousseau (interestingly on Etienne Beane said AGAIN the other day "we have had running backs with 1st round grades on our board in the past they just haven't got to us" I really believe the smoke that had he lasted to #30 he might well have been the pick). This year I have no idea. If Booth is there, I think it would be him. If he is gone.... all bets are off. 

Edited April 22, 2022 by GunnerBill

[whorlnut]

3 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Josh was starting because of injury. They weren't going to play him early at all till injury forced them to.

 

Bradberry and Worley were starting because there was nobody else. Early, they had some problems.

 

Oliver - and you did mention this but dismissed it a bit - only played 54% of snaps his first year.

 

Singletary started Week one, and next was Week eight. He played very little the first few weeks. Knox didn't start till Week 4. Taron Johnson started two games his rookie year and was inactive twice (he was injured the last three games, which is worth mentioning). Yeah, he is a nickel, but once he wasn't a rookie anymore he started seven games out of 12 active, 11 games and 15 games.

 

Joe is quite right.

 

Edmunds really is the exception. Tre also. Started from minute one. Both were rookies at the start of the rebuild, though. The roster's a lot sounder now.

 

It makes plenty of sense to go elsewhere than corner. Of course, it would also make sense to go corner, but they shouldn't and doubtless don't feel they have to go that way. If Booth or McDuffie are still there, I'd guess they would go that way. But if they're not, or if someone like Jameson Williams falls, I wouldn't be even slightly surprised to see them go another direction.

 

 

Awesome job here. The cornerback fanboys don’t want to admit that it’s not the slam dunk they make it out to be. This team is another piece or two from making this offense nearly unstoppable. Why the he k wouldn’t they consider that?  It’s like most fans are completely ignorant to the fact that we don’t have take defense first every year. 

[whorlnut]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

This is the question. Booth is the only corner I'd really love at #25 (I mean I'd love Sauce too but he is definitely gone). I do increasingly think all 5 consensus top WRs will be gone (whether Buffalo loves London or Burks would be a question in any event). All 4 OTs are sure to be gone. Tyler Smith to me projects better at guard, I think he will have issues with holding penalties in the NFL on the island. Not an Ebeketie in round 1 fan. I could live with the idea of Ojabo but there would be plenty of people outraged at another edge and one likely not to play in 2022 at that... 

 

Booth might be the most likely to be there at this stage. Otherwise you are into WR6 and WR7 which is Watson and Dotson for me, or CB4, CB5, CB6.... which is Gordon, McDuffie and McCreary for me... the last of whom is definitely not a scheme fit and McDuffie doesn't have the measurables the Bills look for. 

 

On draft day last year a Chiefs fan asked me who I thought we'd take at #30 and I got it down to Etienne or Rousseau (interestingly on Etienne Beane said AGAIN the other day "we have had running backs with 1st round grades on our board in the past they just haven't got to us" I really believe the smoke that had he lasted to #30 he might well have been the pick). This year I have no idea. If Booth is there, I think it would be him. If he is gone.... all bets are off. 

I get the feeling that the bills will try to talk themselves into hall. I think they have been trying for a while now to get a more dynamic RB and I don’t think that will change until they get one. 

[BobbyC81]

On 4/20/2022 at 2:44 PM, whorlnut said:

You are wrong and he is right is an opinion…unless you have a history book from the future that you would like to share with the rest of us…

Wouldnt  that just be a Future book?

[HappyDays]

3 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

If Booth is there, I think it would be him. If he is gone.... all bets are off. 

 

No one wants to believe it but another edge rusher could be the pick. Boye Mafe fits the profile of a Beane 1st rounder. I also increasingly think it could be Zion Johnson or Kenyon Green despite my own feelings about a 1st round guard. Beane said after the season that his priority this offseasn is to protect Allen, and that has borne out with a bunch of OL signings. Beane doesn't lie. I would not put it past him to add a plug and play guard if he thinks it would leave the OL set for a few years.

[GunnerBill]

9 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

No one wants to believe it but another edge rusher could be the pick. Boye Mafe fits the profile of a Beane 1st rounder. I also increasingly think it could be Zion Johnson or Kenyon Green despite my own feelings about a 1st round guard. Beane said after the season that his priority this offseasn is to protect Allen, and that has borne out with a bunch of OL signings. Beane doesn't lie. I would not put it past him to add a plug and play guard if he thinks it would leave the OL set for a few years.

 

I think you might be right on guard. Wouldn't be my choice but I do wonder if it could be in play. I admit I'd be surprised if it is someone like Mafe but I'd personally like that pick more than a guard pick. 

[HappyDays]

8 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I think you might be right on guard. Wouldn't be my choice but I do wonder if it could be in play. I admit I'd be surprised if it is someone like Mafe but I'd personally like that pick more than a guard pick. 

 

And on Booth if he slides for medical reasons, the Bills haven't been the team to stop a player with a medical red flag from sliding since Beane took over. So if the rumors about Booth are true I'm not sure he's on our board at 25.

[In Summary]

On 4/20/2022 at 1:42 PM, John from Riverside said:

 

- Tre White is probably not starting the season.....Dane jackons is a 2nd year starter.....we let Wallace go free agency.   We are NOT rolling out Dane Jackson and Cam Lewis when all of these other AFC teams have been biulding up their offensive weapons.

I don't buy the JAG will do approach either. QBs will attack the weak. 

[GunnerBill]

41 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

And on Booth if he slides for medical reasons, the Bills haven't been the team to stop a player with a medical red flag from sliding since Beane took over. So if the rumors about Booth are true I'm not sure he's on our board at 25.

 

It depends what the medical is. If it genuinely is just the double hernia I doubt very much that takes him off their board. If there is something else out there that nobody is mentioning but that teams are aware of that could be different.