New Bills stadium deal is bad for taxpayers, according to Yahoo!

[Doc]

28 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

SD was so upset at the possibility that they could lose the Chargers over public funding for a stadium (even via a hotel tax), that they voted against it anyway.  The Raiders have come and gone from several cities.  Oakland doesn't seem to be whining after they lost the team (again).

 

5.8 billion vs 10.7 billion is an interesting hair to split, lol.  No one has suggested that either billionaire should spend 5 billion on a new stadium.  Strange point to make.  Certainly Pegula could afford to pay and should have paid more than the few hundred million he is now obligated to.   His net worth growth is "Peg'd" to the ever increasing value of the franchise he bought--at this rate at least a billion every 10 years.  

 

Yeah, Kroenke put his money where his mouth is and went all in on LA.  He left St. Louis on spec.  Bidwell left because of the stadium issue and dwindling fan interest.    Pegula held out for a free stadium in Buffalo, where he makes risk free money as his main income stream.  He's certainly no fool.   The state didn't play ball (hard or otherwise) at all, which is my point--this nonsense by PSE and now the Governor (Austin! no, wait--it was SD!), not withstanding. 

 

Certainly the *50 mill on the stadium is not gonna do it, that much is obvious.  As for "owning the stadium"...since it is a single use facility (spare us the concerts, Bowl games, etc) it is a very limited value asset.  Without it's lone tenant, it has no value.  It cannot, if the team was to break it's lease and move, be used for anything else.  In fact doesn't the lease include language to the effect that if the team moves, the Bills have to pay for the demolition of the stadium on their way out.

 

Since you don't care in the least, you have no standing to comment at all as to how NYS residents tax dollars are spent.  Anyone in NY is free to be happy the Bills will stay, while at the same time being convinced that the state clearly put up little fight for the tax payers--that much should be obvious. 

 

Look, I realize you've been laboring under the delusion that Bills owners have/had no choice but to stay in Buffalo.  That dog won't hunt anymore (not that it ever really did) now that the NFL has been looking into expansion. 

 

There's a difference between wanting to stay and not being able to leave.  But with wanting to stay, there's a limit that can be reached.  I've given numerous examples of cities that thought they were so smart, thinking their team had nowhere to go...only to look foolish for spending even more money to lure a team/get a new one.  Don't get bogged-down on exact city names, there are other markets out there.  Again it's not worth taking the chance.  There's really nothing more to say on this subject.

 

If you want to have a philosophical debate on what people should be doing, have at it.  If everyone did what they should be doing, we'd have fewer troubles in the world and maybe NYS wouldn't have to spend $220B on a budget, of which only a tiny amount ($182M, since I figure you don't gamble/a lot in Native American casinos and aren't an Erie County resident) of your money is going toward a stadium, a stadium the state will own and pay for in a couple decades.  That's the extent of my comments on how NYS residents' tax dollars are spent.

[Mr. WEO]

6 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

Look, I realize you've been laboring under the delusion that Bills owners have/had no choice but to stay in Buffalo.  That dog won't hunt anymore (not that it ever really did) now that the NFL has been looking into expansion. 

 

There's a difference between wanting to stay and not being able to leave.  But with wanting to stay, there's a limit that can be reached.  I've given numerous examples of cities that thought they were so smart, thinking their team had nowhere to go...only to look foolish for spending even more money to lure a team/get a new one.  Don't get bogged-down on exact city names, there are other markets out there.  Again it's not worth taking the chance.  There's really nothing more to say on this subject.

 

If you want to have a philosophical debate on what people should be doing, have at it.  If everyone did what they should be doing, we'd have fewer troubles in the world and maybe NYS wouldn't have to spend $220B on a budget, of which only a tiny amount ($182M, since I figure you don't gamble/a lot in Native American casinos and aren't an Erie County resident) of your money is going toward a stadium, a stadium the state will own and pay for in a couple decades.  That's the extent of my comments on how NYS residents' tax dollars are spent.

There’s a difference between having a place to move to and pretending to (Austin, SD, for example).  There’s also a difference between paying a reasonable amount and paying almost nothing for your new place of business.  
 

You are laboring under the impression that if Pegula was forced to pay a dollar more,  he would “move the team” to,  one of these nameless cities.  I simply don’t believe that.  I bet Hochul could have gotten more, but she’s compromised as a Governor not elected now running for governor (who’s campaign is now hitting the iceberg).  She, as they say, ran to the podium with that crazy sweet deal for PSE.  I’m pretty sure her predecessor would have squeezed PSE harder yet still got a deal done.  This was a best case scenario for Pegula.  

[John from Riverside]

Does a new stadium not bring jobs?   What is the problem?

[Doc]

1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said:

There’s a difference between having a place to move to and pretending to (Austin, SD, for example).  There’s also a difference between paying a reasonable amount and paying almost nothing for your new place of business.  
 

You are laboring under the impression that if Pegula was forced to pay a dollar more,  he would “move the team” to,  one of these nameless cities.  I simply don’t believe that.  I bet Hochul could have gotten more, but she’s compromised as a Governor not elected now running for governor (who’s campaign is now hitting the iceberg).  She, as they say, ran to the podium with that crazy sweet deal for PSE.  I’m pretty sure her predecessor would have squeezed PSE harder yet still got a deal done.  This was a best case scenario for Pegula.  

 

I'm not sure why you think it's pretend?  You said yourself that you believe that the NFL wants to expand.  Gotta have a market (several, actually) to expand into, no?

 

And I'm sure the $350M+ (which means cost overruns) and $200M from the NFL (~40%) was probably the limit Pegula was willing to kick-in, given he wouldn't own the stadium.  Which a far cry from the "nothing" you fell for them offering.

Edited April 16, 2022 by Doc

[Mr. WEO]

1 hour ago, Doc said:

 

I'm not sure why you think it's pretend?  You said yourself that you believe that the NFL wants to expand.  Gotta have a market (several, actually) to expand into, no?

 

And I'm sure the $350M+ (which means cost overruns) and $200M from the NFL (~40%) was probably the limit Pegula was willing to kick-in, given he wouldn't own the stadium.  Which a far cry from the "nothing" you fell for them offering.

 

Well the NFL always has expanded, it's not a belief of mine.  It's fact.  Someday they likely will again, sure.  What's a market?  A city willing to completely fund a team?  A city that can generate fan support for an NFL team?  How's that going in Carolina?  Jacksonville.  Or even Atlanta or Miami, for that matter.  LA?  Is that a "market" for pro football?

 

200 million form the NFL....is from the NFL--it doesn't count toward owner's contribution ("40%").  That leaves 350 million, minus easily more than 50 million that will be raised with PSLs (50,000 of them starting at $1000, per the Buffalo News).

 

NOT owning the stadium hardly held Pegula back, lol.  Why on earth would he want to own a 1.4 billion property that has nom resale value--that will be destroyed intentionally in what, 20, 25 years?  He obviously would rather put in as little money as possible to its construction, pay a relative pittance in rent per year and then demand a new place down the road.  He knows that the stadium is worthless as an asset.  

Edited April 16, 2022 by Mr. WEO

[boater]

13 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

He knows that the stadium is worthless as an asset.

Yep. He knows. He didn't become a billionaire by accident.

 

Thank you God he's our billionaire and keeping the Bills in WNY when he could have made even more billions by moving.

[Buffaloflash]

On 4/15/2022 at 9:56 AM, JPL7 said:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/ive-studied-stadium-financing-over-121246769.html

“As a sports economist who has studied stadium deals for over two decades, I am not exaggerating when I write that the New York Legislature has managed to craft one of the worst stadium deals in recent memory – a remarkable feat considering the high bar set by other misguided state and local governments across the country.”

Considering how much money down state ***** every year, We wanted the Bills to stay in Buffalo, damn the cost!

Edited April 16, 2022 by Buffaloflash
Spelling

[Doc]

2 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

Well the NFL always has expanded, it's not a belief of mine.  It's fact.  Someday they likely will again, sure.  What's a market?  A city willing to completely fund a team?  A city that can generate fan support for an NFL team?  How's that going in Carolina?  Jacksonville.  Or even Atlanta or Miami, for that matter.  LA?  Is that a "market" for pro football?

 

200 million form the NFL....is from the NFL--it doesn't count toward owner's contribution ("40%").  That leaves 350 million, minus easily more than 50 million that will be raised with PSLs (50,000 of them starting at $1000, per the Buffalo News).

 

NOT owning the stadium hardly held Pegula back, lol.  Why on earth would he want to own a 1.4 billion property that has nom resale value--that will be destroyed intentionally in what, 20, 25 years?  He obviously would rather put in as little money as possible to its construction, pay a relative pittance in rent per year and then demand a new place down the road.  He knows that the stadium is worthless as an asset.  

 

Great, we agree the NFL will expand.  Meaning there are more markets out there.  Again not worth playing hardball to find out the hard way that the team could leave for one of these higher-ranked TV (since you asked) markets.  And obviously never be replaced.

 

It doesn't matter if the $200M is part of the owners' contribution; it's money being paid for by someone other than the state for a stadium they will own, and amounts to 40% of the total cost.  And the state as a whole won't be paying for the $418M from the WNY casinos or $250M from Erie County.  No, your contribution is a tiny fraction of the 10% non-WNY taxpayers will be contributing.  Again a mere drop in the bucket compared to $220B.

 

Why do you claim the stadium will be destroyed, much less intentionally, in 20-25 years?  The current stadium has been there for 50 years.

[Richard Noggin]

7 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

There’s a difference between having a place to move to and pretending to (Austin, SD, for example).  There’s also a difference between paying a reasonable amount and paying almost nothing for your new place of business.  
 

You are laboring under the impression that if Pegula was forced to pay a dollar more,  he would “move the team” to,  one of these nameless cities.  I simply don’t believe that.  I bet Hochul could have gotten more, but she’s compromised as a Governor not elected now running for governor (who’s campaign is now hitting the iceberg).  She, as they say, ran to the podium with that crazy sweet deal for PSE.  I’m pretty sure her predecessor would have squeezed PSE harder yet still got a deal done.  This was a best case scenario for Pegula.  

 

Okay, so THIS is a reasonable criticism of the deal. It's possible to keep the Bills in WNY AND pressure the multi-billionaire owners to kick in a little more funding up front to balance the burden. 

[Matt_In_NH]

On 4/15/2022 at 11:15 AM, GolfandBills said:

The state is set to make over 800 million dollars in income tax paid by bills players and visiting players when they play in Buffalo over the lifetime of the stadium 

That sounds like a terrible deal from a numbers perspective.  600 today for 800 over thirty years….

[Mr. WEO]

11 hours ago, Doc said:

 

Great, we agree the NFL will expand.  Meaning there are more markets out there.  Again not worth playing hardball to find out the hard way that the team could leave for one of these higher-ranked TV (since you asked) markets.  And obviously never be replaced.

 

It doesn't matter if the $200M is part of the owners' contribution; it's money being paid for by someone other than the state for a stadium they will own, and amounts to 40% of the total cost.  And the state as a whole won't be paying for the $418M from the WNY casinos or $250M from Erie County.  No, your contribution is a tiny fraction of the 10% non-WNY taxpayers will be contributing.  Again a mere drop in the bucket compared to $220B.

 

Why do you claim the stadium will be destroyed, much less intentionally, in 20-25 years?  The current stadium has been there for 50 years.

 

If you are of the mind that there simply is no better way to benefit more people with 850 million of public money, then you are going to say things like this.  We disagree.

 

 

Barring a natural disaster, there would be no other way to destroy a stadium.  But to answer your question, after all of this, do you think that Pegula is going to be satisfied with a dated 25 year old stadium?  Why on earth would he be?  He'll just demand another one.  Isn't that what these guys do? Look in MLB, the Texas Rangers got a new field in 1994 and then 22 years later announced they would be leaving it and another one was to be built.  The Braves had Turner field built in 1997 and they were out of there into another new stadium less than 20 years later.  This will be the future of these buildings. Plus, After 15 years, breaking the lease has less financil coat to PSE.  If he leaves, he has to demolish the stadium on the way out. 

 

9 hours ago, Richard Noggin said:

 

Okay, so THIS is a reasonable criticism of the deal. It's possible to keep the Bills in WNY AND pressure the multi-billionaire owners to kick in a little more funding up front to balance the burden. 

 

Exactly.  It's what every taxpayer should want. 

[PetermansRedemption]

Don’t care how much it cost. New York blows my tax dollars on things I care about far, far less than the Bills. They are welcome to take 100% of my income tax and apply it towards this funding. 

[Solomon Grundy]

On 4/15/2022 at 10:00 AM, mushypeaches said:

I'm sorry, did he miss the part about how we get to keep the Bills in Buffalo?

 

SMFH

Now that I think about it, I’m pissed that relocation was part of the negotiations 

[Solomon Grundy]

18 hours ago, hondo in seattle said:

 

Business build projects that are profit makers.

Governments build projects (roads, schools...  stadiums) that are not profit makers.

Let’s not forget that those roads, seaports, etc. helps the businesses to make profits. They’re kinda hand and foot

[Doc]

3 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

If you are of the mind that there simply is no better way to benefit more people with 850 million of public money, then you are going to say things like this.  We disagree.

 

 

Barring a natural disaster, there would be no other way to destroy a stadium.  But to answer your question, after all of this, do you think that Pegula is going to be satisfied with a dated 25 year old stadium?  Why on earth would he be?  He'll just demand another one.  Isn't that what these guys do? Look in MLB, the Texas Rangers got a new field in 1994 and then 22 years later announced they would be leaving it and another one was to be built.  The Braves had Turner field built in 1997 and they were out of there into another new stadium less than 20 years later.  This will be the future of these buildings. Plus, After 15 years, breaking the lease has less financil coat to PSE.  If he leaves, he has to demolish the stadium on the way out. 

 

We'll agree to disagree on how well politicians spend our money and that merely giving them more doesn't ensure they'll put it to good use.  At least here you know where the money will be spent and that it should be recouped in time.

 

And I doubt Terry will be demanding much in 25 years considering he'll be 96 years old.  I don't even know what Kim will be demanding in 25 years, when she'll be 77.  Her kids?  No idea.  Neither do you.  It's a long way off.  Will there even be an NFL?  If so, will people still be going to games?  Will humans even exist?

 

Terry and Kim didn't want to build a new stadium.  But the one they inherited is 50 years old and falling apart, and the NFL wants a shiny new one.  If they build the new one right, it should last another 50.

[Mr. WEO]

29 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

We'll agree to disagree on how well politicians spend our money and that merely giving them more doesn't ensure they'll put it to good use.  At least here you know where the money will be spent and that it should be recouped in time.

 

And I doubt Terry will be demanding much in 25 years considering he'll be 96 years old.  I don't even know what Kim will be demanding in 25 years, when she'll be 77.  Her kids?  No idea.  Neither do you.  It's a long way off.  Will there even be an NFL?  If so, will people still be going to games?  Will humans even exist?

 

Terry and Kim didn't want to build a new stadium.  But the one they inherited is 50 years old and falling apart, and the NFL wants a shiny new one.  If they build the new one right, it should last another 50.

 

It can't be recouped

 

We all agree that it has nothing to do with being built to last 50 years then....

 

It may not be Terry or Kim, but the Pegula Lifestyle Trust will be calling the shots as always.

[Doc]

7 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

It can't be recouped

 

We all agree that it has nothing to do with being built to last 50 years then....

 

It may not be Terry or Kim, but the Pegula Lifestyle Trust will be calling the shots as always.

 

The NFL let the current stadium hang around for decades past 25 years...

 

[Mr. WEO]

1 minute ago, Doc said:

 

The NFL let the current stadium hang around for decades past 25 years...

 

 

 

you know those days are gone forever, doc.

[Doc]

1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said:

you know those days are gone forever, doc.

 

They are?  Really?  When are the Chiefs and Packers, who both have stadiums 50+ years old, getting new stadiums?  How about the Dolphins, Jaguars and Panthers, whose stadiums are past 25 years?  Any talk of the Ravens, Bucs, Browns, Titans, Steelers, Broncos, Seahawks, Lions and Texans getting new stadiums, which are at or over the 20 year mark?

 

Anyway, in 25 years you probably won't be living...in NYS anymore.

[Mr. WEO]

15 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

They are?  Really?  When are the Chiefs and Packers, who both have stadiums 50+ years old, getting new stadiums?  How about the Dolphins, Jaguars and Panthers, whose stadiums are past 25 years?  Any talk of the Ravens, Bucs, Browns, Titans, Steelers, Broncos, Seahawks, Lions and Texans getting new stadiums, which are at or over the 20 year mark?

 

Anyway, in 25 years you probably won't be living...in NYS anymore.

 

Lambeau had a massive reno in 2003 that would cost at least 450 million today and then another 140 million put into it in 2014.  Arrowhead did the same for at least as much 10 years ago. You left out Soldier Field which was subtotally demolished and rebuilt.  

 

Erie/the Bills chose not to similarly remake  the the Ralph when it was feasible to do so...settling instead on some cosmetic work a few years ago (which will all be tossed out now).  

 

I the next 10 years you will hear calls for many of those stadiums to be replaced.  The RCA Dome made it to 23 years.  Silverdome made int to 26 years.  3 Rivers made it to 30.  Giants stadium 33.  Bills stadium is the only place hitting 50 without a major overhaul.   Other than the above, there is no stadium over 35 years old.