New Bills stadium deal is bad for taxpayers, according to Yahoo!

[MJS]

I'm sure it came down to New York ensuring that their only NFL team stays in New York. It would be pretty embarrassing to not have a single NFL team, given the size and prominence that a state like New York has, and given that the NFL headquarters is in New York.

[T master]

Well if you think about it any deal where the tax payer has to pay for a new stadium for a company that makes Billions of dollars a year really isn't a good deal for the tax payer .

 

I was listening to the news on the radio here in Nashville the other day & the Titans want a new stadium too one that has a dome so they can be in contention to bring a Super Bowl here so the news folks went out & asked locals how they felt about it .

 

One of the people they asked was a restaurant owner & in so many words he said - When i as a business owner wanted to open my restaurant i had to pay for the cost of opening my business  i didn't go to the county or state to ask for the tax payers to help pay for me to open my business & i only make 10's of thousands possibly .

 

Yet here is a NFL team that the owners are billionaires & the NFL that is a multi billion dollar company that sign their players to multi million dollar contracts of which that money is mostly generated by middle class people that support the team with their middle class pay .

 

Then these muti billion dollar businesses go to the state & county gov't and have them increase taxes to middle class people that already support the team with tickets & march purchases to pay for a new Billion+ dollar stadium and once the stadium debt is paid for have you ever heard of the tax rate decreasing because of that stadium debt being paid off ? 🤔

 

I haven't & the county & state still charges that extra in taxes . So that restaurant/business owner made a great argument of why he was against the city of Nashville getting a new stadium with a tax increase & if they did that it should be paid for by the NFL & the team .

 

Or seeing as the city does reap some financial reward from the stadium that amount of the loan should be more of a 60% paid by the NFL & the team 40% paid by the city which would make more sense than the opposite . 

 

After that interview hereing that business mans opinion i was like DUH that makes total sense !

 

If those multi billion dollar companies can go have the gov't pay for a stadium why can't the common man go have to them also to pay for people to open a restaurant or corner store or what ever ...

 

Definitely food for thought !! But that being said the NFL has the city, state & county gov't by the balls if they want to keep the team in said city .

Edited April 15, 2022 by T master

[Direhard Fan]

Businesses get tax deals all the time from the state to stay or come.   The Indians taxes owed are paying a great deal of the state share.  Our state wastes more money than carter has pills.  Good for us we are getting a new home for our Bill's. 

[billsfanmiamioh]

12 minutes ago, Direhard Fan said:

Businesses get tax deals all the time from the state to stay or come.   The Indians taxes owed are paying a great deal of the state share.  Our state wastes more money than carter has pills.  Good for us we are getting a new home for our Bill's. 

Still wondering if all the people pissing and moaning were also beating the drum against solar city

[TBBills]

4 hours ago, JPL7 said:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/ive-studied-stadium-financing-over-121246769.html

“As a sports economist who has studied stadium deals for over two decades, I am not exaggerating when I write that the New York Legislature has managed to craft one of the worst stadium deals in recent memory – a remarkable feat considering the high bar set by other misguided state and local governments across the country.”

You won't even notice it.

[PromoTheRobot]

Ask yourself, who is behind these articles? People who actually care about taxpayers? Or someone working to scuttle the deal so the Bills move? Am I being paranoid?

 

I also doubt the NYS deal is the "worst in history." Not even close.

4 hours ago, JPL7 said:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/ive-studied-stadium-financing-over-121246769.html

“As a sports economist who has studied stadium deals for over two decades, I am not exaggerating when I write that the New York Legislature has managed to craft one of the worst stadium deals in recent memory – a remarkable feat considering the high bar set by other misguided state and local governments across the country.”

 

If anyone wants to speak to him:  https://www.holycross.edu/academics/programs/economics-and-accounting/faculty/victor-a-matheson

[JoPoy88]

4 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

Ask yourself, who is behind these articles? People who actually care about taxpayers? Or someone working to scuttle the deal so the Bills move? Am I being paranoid?

 

I also doubt the NYS deal is the "worst in history." Not even close.

 

If anyone wants to speak to him:  https://www.holycross.edu/academics/programs/economics-and-accounting/faculty/victor-a-matheson

Holy Cross huh? Right in the heart of Patriots country

[TheBrownBear]

The exact same thing is written when any stadium is built anywhere in the United States.  With the exception maybe being a stadium built specifically for women's soccer.

[OldNMBillsFan]

3 hours ago, CountDorkula said:

About 27 Million a Year. (75% of that coming from income taxes)

 

I can like the bills and also say this is a terrible F*&( deal for NYS.

 

It will take time to recoup the investment. Ralph Wilson stadium was built for 22 Million in 1973 and now the State is drawing in about 27 million annually. What will the NFL salary cap be in 20 years,  Who knows? But in 2002 the salary cap was 71,000,000. Today it is 208,000,000. That's almost 3X the amount in 20 years. In 2046 the state could be possibly looking at 80 Million a year in tax revenue with 10 years remaining on the lease, possibly earning over 1 billion in taxes the final 10 years. 

[bigduke6]

we already know its a bad deal for taxpayers,  everything is a bad deal for the people who actually pay taxes in this country.

 

Bills had all the leverage.   i didnt want them to move, so this Governor did what she had to do.    really isnt much more to say about it.

 

we dont have to like it though.

[chris heff]

2 hours ago, T master said:

Well if you think about it any deal where the tax payer has to pay for a new stadium for a company that makes Billions of dollars a year really isn't a good deal for the tax payer .

 

I was listening to the news on the radio here in Nashville the other day & the Titans want a new stadium too one that has a dome so they can be in contention to bring a Super Bowl here so the news folks went out & asked locals how they felt about it .

 

One of the people they asked was a restaurant owner & in so many words he said - When i as a business owner wanted to open my restaurant i had to pay for the cost of opening my business  i didn't go to the county or state to ask for the tax payers to help pay for me to open my business & i only make 10's of thousands possibly .

 

Yet here is a NFL team that the owners are billionaires & the NFL that is a multi billion dollar company that sign their players to multi million dollar contracts of which that money is mostly generated by middle class people that support the team with their middle class pay .

 

Then these muti billion dollar businesses go to the state & county gov't and have them increase taxes to middle class people that already support the team with tickets & march purchases to pay for a new Billion+ dollar stadium and once the stadium debt is paid for have you ever heard of the tax rate decreasing because of that stadium debt being paid off ? 🤔

 

I haven't & the county & state still charges that extra in taxes . So that restaurant/business owner made a great argument of why he was against the city of Nashville getting a new stadium with a tax increase & if they did that it should be paid for by the NFL & the team .

 

Or seeing as the city does reap some financial reward from the stadium that amount of the loan should be more of a 60% paid by the NFL & the team 40% paid by the city which would make more sense than the opposite . 

 

After that interview hereing that business mans opinion i was like DUH that makes total sense !

 

If those multi billion dollar companies can go have the gov't pay for a stadium why can't the common man go have to them also to pay for people to open a restaurant or corner store or what ever ...

 

Definitely food for thought !! But that being said the NFL has the city, state & county gov't by the balls if they want to keep the team in said city .

New York State will be the landlord and receive rent. As a former restaurateur I believe I am qualified to explain the flaw in the argument. When opening a restaurant you can buy real estate or lease retail space. Most restaurants lease space. The build out can be done by the landlord, but that cost will be reflected in the rent. Or the restaurateur can pay for it out of pocket. In either case the capital improvements become the property of the landlord. In the case of the stadium the capital improvements paid for by the Pegulas becomes the property of the state.
 

Businesses both large and small are regularly given government assistance. That assistance can be in the form of a loan or a tax abatement. The SBA exists to assist small businesses. Some municipalities have been known to provide zero interest loans to help small businesses that they feel will help gentrify a neighborhood. Large businesses get help all the time, for example when the Grand Hyatt at Grand Central Station was built, the developer received a 40 year $400 million tax abatement on the property. 

Edited April 15, 2022 by chris heff

[boater]

16 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

Ask yourself, who is behind these articles? People who actually care about taxpayers? Or someone working to scuttle the deal so the Bills move? Am I being paranoid?

No. You are not being paranoid. If you're being paranoid, I'm right up there with you.

 

The stadium deal is fait accompli. Yet the negative news coverage continues to roll in. I'm beginning to feel some people are still trying to scuttle the project.

[JoPoy88]

4 minutes ago, chris heff said:

Erie County is now and will be the landlord and receive rent. As a former restaurateur I believe I am qualified to explain the flaw in the argument. When opening a restaurant you can buy real estate or lease retail space. Most restaurants lease space. The build out can be done by the landlord, but that cost will be reflected in the rent. Or the restaurateur can pay for it out of pocket. In either case the capital improvements become the property of the landlord. In the case of the stadium the capital improvements paid for by the Pegulas becomes the property of the county. 
 

Businesses both large and small are regularly given government assistance. That assistance can be in the form of a loan or a tax abatement. The SBA exists to assist small businesses. Some municipalities have been known to provide zero interest loans to help small businesses that they feel will help gentrify a neighborhood. Large businesses get help all the time, for example when the Grand Hyatt at Grand Central Station was built, the developer received a 40 year $400 million tax abatement on the property. 

i believe the state, not the county, will be the landlord of the new stadium. 

[UConn James]

4 hours ago, What a Tuel said:

 

300 million over 7 years doesn't seem like a lot and i doubt that is even net income. Projected over 30 years it might barely cover a new stadium? 

 

Meanwhile they keep the team here and NY/Erie County rake in the tax revenue from players contracts, coach contracts, organizational payroll, ticket sales, merchandise sales, etc etc etc. 

 

The fairest way is a split between public and private funding which is what they did. Yes the state paid a bit more but they dont have the leverage being a small market team.

To say nothing of the construction businesses’ and workers’ taxes.

[JESSEFEFFER]

2 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

I haven't run the numbers, and wouldn't even know how to, but I think this guy is relying on all the studies that show that investing in stadiums don't show a positive return to the state doing the investing.   

 

I think in this case, however, a study would show it's not such a bad deal.  It now seems clear that if the state didn't put up the money, the Bills would leave Buffalo.  That's because the Pegulas were clear that it made no economic sense for them to build a stadium, and the NFL is insisting, consistent with its stadium policies that apply to all teams, that the Bills get a new stadium.  Put those two thoughts together, and if the state doesn't contribute to a stadium, the Bills will leave the state.  

 

So, the financial comparison is between investing in the stadium and not investing and losing the Bills.  An $800 million investment at a 3% return brings in $24 million per year.    States generally don't do that kind of analysis in looking at projects - for example, they don't refuse to build a highway for $800 million if they can't get $24 million a year back somehow.  Instead, they assume that there are a variety of benefits that make having the highway a good thing for the state.  Still, if you look at the economics of it, the state loses a lot of money if the Bills leave.   First, there's income tax on the player salaries.   On a $120 million cap at, say, 8%, that's $10 million a year.   And as the salary cap goes up, that tax revenue.   In ten years, if the cap is at $200 million, since more of the salaries will be taxed at higher rates, the state's looking at maybe $20 million a year.   All that revenue is gone if the Bills leave.  

 

So, just looking at player income tax, the state can expect a decent return on the investment.  Front office and coaches' salary probably total another $20 million, which is another couple of million in tax.  (Pegulas apparently don't pay NYS income tax.)

 

Then there's sales tax on tickets.  Four percent on 60,000 tickets at, say, $100 apiece.   That's $240,000 in sales tax per game, times eight games (to be conservative), there's another $2 million.  Again, over a 30-year deal, the ticket prices will go up, so the return will increase.   But just in year one, hard numbers, there's a $14 million return on the investment. 

 

None of that counts the indirect benefits of having games there - the additional income tax paid by game-day personnel, restaurant and hotel income and sales taxes, sales tax on Bills stuff.   There's a whole collection of indirect tax revenue that disappears when the Bills disappear.   

 

Not to mention the tolls I pay driving through the entire damn state eight games a year!  That adds up. 

 

Whether this deal will allow the state to recover every nickel it spends, I don't know, but I think it's pretty clear that having a new stadium and keeping the Bills is closer to a break-even deal than this guy is saying, when compared to having no stadium and no football team in Buffalo. 

 

 

 

 

 

 You even picked out way out of date salary cap figures.  It's 208 million this year and likely close to 250 million in two years which is why Beane is spending like he is.  Game weekend economic activity for hotels, bars, restaurants, team merchandise etc. is not nothing either.  This Chautauqua County resident has very little reason to spend money in Erie County other than on the Bills and occasional BNI airport usage.  How much is paid in local and county property taxes by Bills employees?  Much of that goes away if the team does.  As for the stadium itself, how much economic return will stay local in terms of construction wages and building materials?  I hope NYS contractors make  money on the steel and cement, plumbing and electrical work.  It's not like it's  a billion dollars directly paid into the Pegula's pockets.  It's not a money making deal for the state or county but I bet it's closer to a zero net exchange as you suggest.

[ndirish1978]

Repeat after me "free websites like to push buttons because they need clicks for ad revenue." An article saying "hey, this keeps the team in the region for the foreseeable future and isn't worse than these other deals" gets a few hundred clicks so they don't even bother. They'd rather write 40 "articles" analyzing the body language of Kardashians and how it relates to whomever they happen to be married to this week. 

[Shaw66]

2 minutes ago, JESSEFEFFER said:

 

 You even picked out way out of date salary cap figures.  It's 208 million this year and likely close to 250 million in two years which is why Beane is spending like he is.  Game weekend economic activity for hotels, bars, restaurants, team merchandise etc. is not nothing either.  This Chautauqua County resident has very little reason to spend money in Erie County other than on the Bills and occasional BNI airport usage.  How much is paid in local and county property taxes by Bills employees?  Much of that goes away if the team does.  As for the stadium itself, how much economic return will stay local in terms of construction wages and building materials?  I hope NYS contractors make  money on the steel and cement, plumbing and electrical work.  It's not like it's  a billion dollars directly paid into the Pegula's pockets.  It's not a money making deal for the state or county but I bet it's closer to a zero net exchange as you suggest.

Thanks.  Sloppy thinking on me.  

 

Most state spending doesn't make money at all.  This state spending is done almost at no cost to the state, so it's among the best state spending possible.

[TheyCallMeAndy]

I mean at least this is a tax that I’ll actually get to enjoy…

[chris heff]

15 minutes ago, JoPoy88 said:

i believe the state, not the county, will be the landlord of the new stadium. 

You’re right Erie County owns current stadium but is transferring ownership to the State. I will edit.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

33 minutes ago, chris heff said:

New York State will be the landlord and receive rent. As a former restaurateur I believe I am qualified to explain the flaw in the argument. When opening a restaurant you can buy real estate or lease retail space. Most restaurants lease space. The build out can be done by the landlord, but that cost will be reflected in the rent. Or the restaurateur can pay for it out of pocket. In either case the capital improvements become the property of the landlord. In the case of the stadium the capital improvements paid for by the Pegulas becomes the property of the county. 
 

Businesses both large and small are regularly given government assistance. That assistance can be in the form of a loan or a tax abatement. The SBA exists to assist small businesses. Some municipalities have been known to provide zero interest loans to help small businesses that they feel will help gentrify a neighborhood. Large businesses get help all the time, for example when the Grand Hyatt at Grand Central Station was built, the developer received a 40 year $400 million tax abatement on the property. 

Yep.  Can anyone say “TIF”?

 

Edit: I’m not saying the stadium is a TIF, just that government financing of businesses, repaid by taxes, happens all the time and most people don’t even notice