Kathy Hochul: San Diego was interested in taking the Bills away from Buffalo

[djp14150]

On 4/14/2022 at 8:00 PM, 13 Second Prevent Defense said:

Toronto is not the Buffalo market.  No way  Buffalo is a tiny market.   It’s ok

except tv and radio advertisers think differently…..

[Richard Noggin]

15 hours ago, BarleyNY said:

Well we KNOW Hochul lied about Austin.  San Diego makes little sense too.  I am just being realistic about that.  I also think we should all be realistic about the necessity of building the Bills a stadium.  Something had to be done or the Pegulas would have moved them somewhere.  Zero argument there.  Ditto WNY getting state funds.
 

But there is a lot to hate about this deal.  $850M in public funds for construction plus another $280M for upkeep is very, very steep.  Of the remaining $550M in construction costs the NFL is footing $200M and the Pegulas will be responsible for $350M.  But that won’t be from their pockets, it will come from fans in the form of PSLs.  Their investment will be zero or close to zero. 
 

Then there’s the very dirty mechanics of the deal.  The state money isn’t coming from downstate, $565M of the $600M is coming from Seneca Nation.  NYS is forcing them to pay 25% of their gross (not net) revenue to run their casinos.  They had a contract for that where payments ended in 2016 after 14 years.  In return SN was supposed to get exclusively on most of their gambling operations.  NYS did not uphold that end of the bargain and the period of payment had ended anyway so SN has not had contractual obligations to pay since 2016.  NYS contested that and thus the money was put into escrow.  NYS did get a judgement in the case, but SN appealed.  Rather than allow the legal proceeding to continue SN was forced to pay when Hochul froze all of the SN accounts.  Not just the account where they escrowed the disputed funds (which weren’t being spent anyway), all of SN’s accounts.  Oh and it’s Key Bank that did that.  The same one whose name is on the Sabres arena.

 

 

It's dishonest/inaccurate to say the Pegulas' portion of the funding "won't be from their pockets" (because they will be reimbursed over time via PSLs), and at the same time ignore that the state and county will get reimbursed, over time, by tax revenues generated by the Bills franchise (and of course the reported allocation of Seneca funds). All these entities can illustrate where the money is coming from and how it will supposedly be paid back/forward. So I take issue with the bolded in your post. 

 

Personally, however, I agree with the spirit of your post.  

 

[HOUSE]

 

Never underestimate NFL owners' willingness to play hardball

https://buffalonews.com/sports/bills/bills-mailbag-never-underestimate-nfl-owners-willingness-to-play-hardball/article_c83e66a2-bce5-11ec-b1d8-e70c715388a7.html

[BarleyNY]

8 hours ago, Richard Noggin said:

 

It's dishonest/inaccurate to say the Pegulas' portion of the funding "won't be from their pockets" (because they will be reimbursed over time via PSLs), and at the same time ignore that the state and county will get reimbursed, over time, by tax revenues generated by the Bills franchise (and of course the reported allocation of Seneca funds). All these entities can illustrate where the money is coming from and how it will supposedly be paid back/forward. So I take issue with the bolded in your post. 

 

Personally, however, I agree with the spirit of your post.  

 

First, thank you for a respectful and nuanced response.  The Pegulas will make money regardless of how the stadium is funded.  My point was more about how it is being funded.  They will be putting in a very, very small amount of money.  This stadium deal is the first I’ve seen where PSL revenue was considered part of the owner’s share (though maybe I’ve missed that).  
 

Of the $350M that is the Pegula’s responsibility, most of that will come from PSLs sold well in advance of the stadium’s opening.  For example, Atlanta’s 71,000 seat stadium sold $300M of PSLs prior to opening.  I don’t expect the total for the Bills to be quite that high, but pricing hasn’t been released yet.  I’d guesstimate $250M for initial PSL revenue, which would put the Pegula’s contribution toward the stadium at about $100M.  it could certainly be less.  That just seems egregiously low to me based on past deals and what they’re getting for it.

[Another Fan]

27 minutes ago, BarleyNY said:

First, thank you for a respectful and nuanced response.  The Pegulas will make money regardless of how the stadium is funded.  My point was more about how it is being funded.  They will be putting in a very, very small amount of money.  This stadium deal is the first I’ve seen where PSL revenue was considered part of the owner’s share (though maybe I’ve missed that).  
 

Of the $350M that is the Pegula’s responsibility, most of that will come from PSLs sold well in advance of the stadium’s opening.  For example, Atlanta’s 71,000 seat stadium sold $300M of PSLs prior to opening.  I don’t expect the total for the Bills to be quite that high, but pricing hasn’t been released yet.  I’d guesstimate $250M for initial PSL revenue, which would put the Pegula’s contribution toward the stadium at about $100M.  it could certainly be less.  That just seems egregiously low to me based on past deals and what they’re getting for it.

 

Well you know how I feel about Rutgers football and their spending so it's only fair I feel the same way about a team I root for.

 

I was texting a friend last night out in Cali about the Bills and he told me that area went through something like that with the Sacramento Kings as well

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/sacramento-silliness-once-again-taxpayers-foot-the-bill-for-a-new-arena/2012/03/11/gIQARilp5R_story.html

 

There's other stuff online about it.  

 

 

It's why in getting to my advanced age sports seem less and less fun and more boring 

 

Edited April 16, 2022 by Another Fan

[The Real Buffalo Joe]

On 4/13/2022 at 8:29 PM, BringBackFergy said:

Jacksonville has tarps over 1/3 of the stadium. Let San Diego have the Jags. 
 

💯

[BillsfaninSB]

Commercial Real Estate 101:

 

The lessor (the State) builds the building at their cost and owns the building.

 

The lessee (the Bills) occupies said building and pays rent under the terms of the lease.

 

The hope is a win - win for both parties. 

 

Feel free to argue whether or not the State should be into the commercial real estate development business but don’t argue the deal.   In principle it is no different that any other commercial deal.  Sure their are some weird nuances because of the uniqueness of the project but not a big deal. 

 

 

Edited April 21, 2022 by BillsfaninSB

[Lost]

On 4/16/2022 at 9:38 AM, BarleyNY said:

First, thank you for a respectful and nuanced response.  The Pegulas will make money regardless of how the stadium is funded.  My point was more about how it is being funded.  They will be putting in a very, very small amount of money.  This stadium deal is the first I’ve seen where PSL revenue was considered part of the owner’s share (though maybe I’ve missed that).  
 

Of the $350M that is the Pegula’s responsibility, most of that will come from PSLs sold well in advance of the stadium’s opening.  For example, Atlanta’s 71,000 seat stadium sold $300M of PSLs prior to opening.  I don’t expect the total for the Bills to be quite that high, but pricing hasn’t been released yet.  I’d guesstimate $250M for initial PSL revenue, which would put the Pegula’s contribution toward the stadium at about $100M.  it could certainly be less.  That just seems egregiously low to me based on past deals and what they’re getting for it.

 

I mean, NFL owners typically aren't in the business to lose money.   If any of us were billionaires and trying to negotiate a new stadium we'd probably go about it the same way.  Greed is in all of us, politicians, billionaires and rubes alike.  We all generally make decisions to serve our own best interest.   The further up the food chain you get, the more leverage you have though.

[BarleyNY]

21 minutes ago, Lost said:

 

I mean, NFL owners typically aren't in the business to lose money.   If any of us were billionaires and trying to negotiate a new stadium we'd probably go about it the same way.  Greed is in all of us, politicians, billionaires and rubes alike.  We all generally make decisions to serve our own best interest.   The further up the food chain you get, the more leverage you have though.

Sure.  Virtually all of us would take more.  But at what cost?  What someone is willing to do to get more wealth, power, influence, etc. is important as integrity and morals are often the limiting factors.

[Lost]

26 minutes ago, BarleyNY said:

Sure.  Virtually all of us would take more.  But at what cost?  What someone is willing to do to get more wealth, power, influence, etc. is important as integrity and morals are often the limiting factors.

 

From your original post, it would seem that the Hochul's were the more corrupt, deceptive party in getting the deal done as opposed to the Pegulas.  They're just making a wise business decision.  Forking over 350 Million for something they will not own doesn't ooze with greed to me.  They own the team, not the stadium.  

 

As for the Hochuls, I'm not going to disagree with you that there was probably some shenanigans going on, that's nothing new in politics unfortunately.   Corruption is rampant in government on all sides, that's why I'm always in favor of smaller government or at least not expanding it's scope.   People like to hate on billionaires but the truth is we created them.   They provided a desirable product or service and we eat it up.  If they start getting greedy and not acting in the best interest of society, we can easily take our dollars elsewhere.   When the government starts getting greedy/corrupt it's a lot harder to take your tax dollars elsewhere.  

 

At the end of the day though, nobody was harmed in getting this deal done.  The Bills keep playing in buffalo, WNY keeps generating more tax revenue and we can go  see the games in a new state of the art stadium and not have to p*ss in a sink.  

[Greg S]

9 minutes ago, Lost said:

 

From your original post, it would seem that the Hochul's were the more corrupt, deceptive party in getting the deal done as opposed to the Pegulas.  They're just making a wise business decision.  Forking over 350 Million for something they will not own doesn't ooze with greed to me.  They own the team, not the stadium.  

 

As for the Hochuls, I'm not going to disagree with you that there was probably some shenanigans going on, that's nothing new in politics unfortunately.   Corruption is rampant in government on all sides, that's why I'm always in favor of smaller government or at least not expanding it's scope.   People like to hate on billionaires but the truth is we created them.   They provided a desirable product or service and we eat it up.  If they start getting greedy and not acting in the best interest of society, we can easily take our dollars elsewhere.   When the government starts getting greedy/corrupt it's a lot harder to take your tax dollars elsewhere.  

 

At the end of the day though, nobody was harmed in getting this deal done.  The Bills keep playing in buffalo, WNY keeps generating more tax revenue and we can go  see the games in a new state of the art stadium and not have to p*ss in a sink.  

 

At the end of the day the Bills future in WNY is secure and we can enjoy watching them play for many years to come. I mentioned this before but it was perfect timing for the Bills when Hochul took over for Cuomo. They were never leaving on her watch. She's from WNY and a life long Bills fan. Plus her husband's company benefits with the new stadium which means she benefits. Was this deal on the "up and up". Probably not but I don't care as the Bills remain in WNY.

[BarleyNY]

17 minutes ago, Lost said:

 

From your original post, it would seem that the Hochul's were the more corrupt, deceptive party in getting the deal done as opposed to the Pegulas.  They're just making a wise business decision.  Forking over 350 Million for something they will not own doesn't ooze with greed to me.  They own the team, not the stadium.  

 

As for the Hochuls, I'm not going to disagree with you that there was probably some shenanigans going on, that's nothing new in politics unfortunately.   Corruption is rampant in government on all sides, that's why I'm always in favor of smaller government or at least not expanding it's scope.   People like to hate on billionaires but the truth is we created them.   They provided a desirable product or service and we eat it up.  If they start getting greedy and not acting in the best interest of society, we can easily take our dollars elsewhere.   When the government starts getting greedy/corrupt it's a lot harder to take your tax dollars elsewhere.  

 

At the end of the day though, nobody was harmed in getting this deal done.  The Bills keep playing in buffalo, WNY keeps generating more tax revenue and we can go  see the games in a new state of the art stadium and not have to p*ss in a sink.  

 

I agree that corruption is rampant everywhere in politics.  I don’t see a lot of blameless people involved here though.  I do see a lot of incestous relationships though.  Also I disagree that no one is getting hurt (I think I covered that).

 

As for the $350M “from the Pegulas,” that is going to be fully or almost fully covered by PSLs.  That’s obviously funded by season ticket holders who are paying for the right to buy tickets at a stadium otherwise funded completely by the state and local governments (including the funds taken from Seneca Nation).  In other stadium/ballpark/arena deals I’ve yet to see PSLs included in the owner’s share.  I have always seen it shown as a separate line item in funding.  It’s obviously lumped together with ownership contribution in this case because seeing $0 or $50M or even $100M as the Pegulas contribution would be inviting PR problems.  There’s also no way that the Pegulas don’t already know what the PSL portion will be.  They are very competent people.  Also the government will be paying for ongoing upkeep and renovations while I have yet to see that the Bills will be paying rent to play in that stadium.

 

While I am happy that the Bills are staying in WNY, this is a massive giveaway of public money to the Pegulas.  I’m going to duck out of this conversation as I’m mostly just repeating things that I have already covered.  I’ll just invite people to do their own research and inform themselves as they see fit.

[TheFunPolice]

You know what would have really complicated that? The Pegulas ownership of the Sabres. 

 

Then again, there have been rumors for the past couple of years that the Sabres "could be" for sale, possibly, maybe. Sports reporters were "hearing whispers" and so forth. 

 

IMO, the Sabres talk validates the fact that the Pegulas were exploring their options as it relates to the Bills. Terry LOVES the Sabres. He freaking cried when he met the French Connection guys in person. He also has billions of dollars and just a few years ago started a new oil/gas company "as a hobby" when prices were low and everyone mocked him for it on here. I'll bet he's doing pretty well right about now with that. 

 

There was no need for him to sell the Sabres at all. None. All the "team is losing money" "we're cash poor" talk was just a way to provide cover for the fact that they were having some preliminary discussions with potential buyers. 

 

How would they explain that otherwise? The Sabres were Terry's dream. 

 

IMO the REAL reason was always "if things do fall through with NY we need a backup plan, and we're going to need to unload the Sabres fast before news gets out about the Bills." Otherwise, potential buyers would recognize the situation and lowball the Pegulas knowing they HAD to sell.

 

My theory anyway. I don't think it was CLOSE to happening (Bills moving/Sabres sold) but I do think that the ducks were being lined up just in case, which is sensible business. 

Edited April 21, 2022 by TheFunPolice

[Mr. WEO]

15 hours ago, BillsfaninSB said:

Commercial Real Estate 101:

 

The lessor (the State) builds the building at their cost and owns the building.

 

The lessee (the Bills) occupies said building and pays rent under the terms of the lease.

 

The hope is a win - win for both parties. 

 

Feel free to argue whether or not the State should be into the commercial real estate development business but don’t argue the deal.   In principle it is no different that any other commercial deal.  Sure their are some weird nuances because of the uniqueness of the project but not a big deal. 

 

 

 

Most commercial developers are building a property that will have serial renters.  They can charge maximum market rates for a new building and have more than one business to market the space to.  Commercial leases are often in the 5 year range.  

 

2 hours ago, TheFunPolice said:

 

 

IMO, the Sabres talk validates the fact that the Pegulas were exploring their options as it relates to the Bills. Terry LOVES the Sabres. He freaking cried when he met the French Connection guys in person. He also has billions of dollars and just a few years ago started a new oil/gas company "as a hobby" when prices were low and everyone mocked him for it on here. I'll bet he's doing pretty well right about now with that. 

 

 

Pegula might be doing well.  His investors, not so much.  That company is a bit of a sham so far...

 

[Saxum]

On 4/15/2022 at 9:51 AM, BarleyNY said:

Well we KNOW Hochul lied about Austin. 

 

Hochul  did not start rumor about Austin.  That was done by someone in Albany with talked to Jerry Jones' organization, the same one which Pegulas are using as consultant.

 

[Doc]

5 hours ago, TheFunPolice said:

You know what would have really complicated that? The Pegulas ownership of the Sabres. 

 

Then again, there have been rumors for the past couple of years that the Sabres "could be" for sale, possibly, maybe. Sports reporters were "hearing whispers" and so forth. 

 

IMO, the Sabres talk validates the fact that the Pegulas were exploring their options as it relates to the Bills. Terry LOVES the Sabres. He freaking cried when he met the French Connection guys in person. He also has billions of dollars and just a few years ago started a new oil/gas company "as a hobby" when prices were low and everyone mocked him for it on here. I'll bet he's doing pretty well right about now with that. 

 

There was no need for him to sell the Sabres at all. None. All the "team is losing money" "we're cash poor" talk was just a way to provide cover for the fact that they were having some preliminary discussions with potential buyers. 

 

How would they explain that otherwise? The Sabres were Terry's dream. 

 

IMO the REAL reason was always "if things do fall through with NY we need a backup plan, and we're going to need to unload the Sabres fast before news gets out about the Bills." Otherwise, potential buyers would recognize the situation and lowball the Pegulas knowing they HAD to sell.

 

My theory anyway. I don't think it was CLOSE to happening (Bills moving/Sabres sold) but I do think that the ducks were being lined up just in case, which is sensible business. 

 

I don't think Terry wanted/wants to sell.  Kim might, to focus on the most important asset they have.  But they don't have to actively be soliciting bids for someone to make an offer.

 

I also don't think they were exploring options with the Bills and were waiting to see how the stadium negotiations went.  But like above, I don't think they had to be actively soliciting bids.

 

2 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

Most commercial developers are building a property that will have serial renters.  They can charge maximum market rates for a new building and have more than one business to market the space to.  Commercial leases are often in the 5 year range.  

 

They can also have empty space, sometimes for years.  This a guaranteed long-term renter.

 

2 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

Pegula might be doing well.  His investors, not so much.  That company is a bit of a sham so far...

 

It's above its IPO.  Barely, but it's still above.

Edited April 21, 2022 by Doc

[DrW]

San Diego newspaper makes fun of Hochul:

 

https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/sports/sports-columnists/story/2022-04-16/nfl-chargers-bills-buffalo-san-diego-nick-canepas-sez-me-colum

 

(was on the TBD News page a few days ago)

Edited April 21, 2022 by DrW

[Helpmenow]

On 4/14/2022 at 8:43 AM, SoCal Deek said:

FYI: The old Chargers stadium has already been demolished and they’ve just finished building a brand new ‘little’ stadium on the property that’ll be the new home of San Diego State. So…to get a new NFL team San Diego is going to have to find a new location. 

Mission Valley where the stadium was had a large MTBE plume on the property. From the Kinder Morgan Terminals across the street

 

Edited April 22, 2022 by Helpmenow

[Mr. WEO]

18 hours ago, Doc said:

 

I don't think Terry wanted/wants to sell.  Kim might, to focus on the most important asset they have.  But they don't have to actively be soliciting bids for someone to make an offer.

 

I also don't think they were exploring options with the Bills and were waiting to see how the stadium negotiations went.  But like above, I don't think they had to be actively soliciting bids.

 

 

They can also have empty space, sometimes for years.  This a guaranteed long-term renter.

 

 

It's above its IPO.  Barely, but it's still above.

 

It's at 36 cents (+0.3%) above.  The company misses every quarterly report and receives notices from NASDAQ for this--these are the only "press releases" on the company's website..  As of December it hadn't made a single acquisition, yet it's expenses are in the millions.  SEC last fall said that if they don't make an acquisition by July, the fund will have to liquidate.

[Greg S]

Tennessee just passed a budget giving the Titans $500 million for a new stadium. First the Bills and now the Titans

 

Tennessee passes budget including $500 million in funding for new Titans stadium - ProFootballTalk (nbcsports.com)