If LB Devin Lloyd is available at Pick 25......

[OldTimer1960]

2 hours ago, intimidatortj said:

One interesting stat about Tremaine Edmunds and pass coverage is he allows a completion on 75% of targets to the man he is covering.   Not exactly Revis Island.  

Yes, there are other LBers that give up as many completions, but there are plenty that give up a smaller %.

 

 

Some of these stats can be misleading.  I think his value is in clogging the middle of the field passing lanes with his size and speed.  He is not often asked to play man coverage.  He also does a good job roaming sideline to sideline on wide runs/short passes.  Like all inside LBs, he is affected if the DL allows OL to reach the second level and block him on inside runs.  His instincts may not b perfect, but I think the criticism of him on this board is overblown and is born from the misconceptions that all first round picks should be game changers and are slam dunks.  
 

i see Edmunds as a good starter that is a positive in the Bills’ preferred zone pass D and can impact outside run game as well.  He is not at his best as an inside run stuffer, but if DL can keep him clean, it would help a lot.

 

Now, is that enough to pay him a big contract next year?  I’m not sure,  but I think that Bills think much more highly of him than this message board does.

 

I know that for his detractors this won’t matter, but he doesn’t turn 24 until this May.  That is only a year (for some 2) older than this year’s rookie crop.

 

 

[mrags]

1 hour ago, Sierra Foothills said:

 

 

Again, my statements are not about whether Edmunds is worth keeping or not. Nor are my statements about whether he is a good player or not. I'm NOT addressing those questions.

 

I'm questioning what effect if any replacing him with a rookie linebacker and trading him away might have on the locker room.

 

Some here are arguing that it wouldn't have much negative effect but those same people are basing their opinion on their own belief that Edmunds isn't any good. That opinion is irrelevant.

 

What's relevant is how valuable his teammates believe Edmunds is.

I believe his teammates absolutely value him. So does this coaching staff and front office. But the facts are he hurts your defense with his inability to react correctly very often. His size and athleticism allows him to be a part of every single play because he’s a freak. But at the end of the day I don’t trust him to make correct decisions on the field in game. 
 

and every player would say how good he is and how much is lost by trading him. But every player always has good things to say about their teammates. Until the next guy comes along and is better. 
 

I vote for Poyer or Hyde to run the defense while a young rookie learns. 

[Alphadawg7]

13 hours ago, Special K said:

Would you select him, and trade Edmunds to a team with a top 15 Second Round Pick??

 

I know there are a lot of what-ifs in this scenario, but if the draft did fall this way, and a team with a top 15 second round pick was interested in trading for Edmunds...I would pull the trigger immediately on this.

 

Although I do not hate Edmunds as much as many on this board, I am certainly not a fan of giving him a huge contract extension either.

 

Lloyd is a beast of a LB, and could easily end up being better than Edmunds quite quickly, plus he would be on a cheaper rookie contract for the next 5 years.

 

I would use the second round pick from the trade to draft Breece Hall, the Bills actual second round pick to draft a speed WR like Metchie III, and use the cap savings from losing Edmunds contract to sign one of the Veteran CB's still on the market.

 

What do you think??

 

3 picks in the first 2 rounds and no CB?  Don't see that happening at all, one of them would definitely be a CB.  

 

I get the logic, but I am skeptical they would trade Edmunds, who is the QB of our defense, in the middle of major SB run this season and turn that complicated position over to a rookie.  That doesn't sound like McD or Beanes style personally.

 

They also haven't met with a lot of LB's either.  One guys they did meet with is Troy Anderson, who is the fastest LB in this draft, raw having just recently converted to LB and versatile playing positions even like QB and RB in college.  Everything about him seems to be what McD and Beane love in players.  Wouldn't surprise me if we took him in the 2nd or 3rd round regardless of what their intent is with Edmunds.  

 

[Aesop]

4 hours ago, Shake_My_Head said:

What?   A LBs job is to read and react.   From my view, Edmunds is about 50/50 on correctly diagnosing inside running plays.   It's almost like he's guessing which hole to hit rather than seeing the play unfold.   IMO, after four years, he's no more savvy about MLB play than he was in his second year.   

 

The Bills love him for his length and range in their zone passing defense.   OK, I get that.    But they need an upgrade in their run defense from what Edmunds provides, IMO.    Tackle stats hide where contact is made--near the line of scrimage or 5-years down field.    London Fletcher had a lot of those 5-yard down field tackle stats, just like Edmunds.   

I agree with you. Last year, since the Bills ran a ton of nickel, Edmunds was required to cover two gaps ALOT.  But this was also because the defense lacked a true 1 Tech at DT. McD wants to run a one gap system (remember Kuechly and Star in his prime). This would make Edmunds responsible for either the A or B gap, depending on the formation. My point is that the additions of Phillips, Jones and Settle (who all have the size and strength to eat space) should help. I want to preface also, that I am all for the Bills drafting Llyod if he's available at 25. I am not sold on Edmunds, but he should improve this season with a more beefed up D-line. 

[Thurman#1]

7 hours ago, mrags said:

Only problems is….. Edmunds isn’t as good as people think he is. It’s his last season with us and he will likely get a contract worth more than $15/y and he’s just not worth that much. You trade him while you can and get something for him to soften the blow. 

 

Easy answer, you resign Poyer and Hyde to add a few years on each contract with the money you save from Edmunds. You have one of them call the defense since they are incredibly smart and have an overview of the entire field from the S position, until your rookie LB catches on. 

 

 

That's not the problem. He's better than many fans think he is. The Bills love him, and that's the important thing. He does a ton more than most fans know, and the Bills have said this over and over. Beane says he's absolutely a building block going forward. You folks don't want to hear that, but that's Beane, not some guy on the internet.

 

You're right that it could be his last season with us. Certainly could be. But we thought that about Milano too, and look what happened.

 

Could he go? Sure. Especially if he insists on getting market value. Milano didn't. Tremaine might, but he might not. We'll see.

 

And no, Poyer and Hyde can't call the defense. The idea's ridiculous. Especially in hostile stadiums nobody's going to hear them, they're too far back. Last thing you want to do is change their positioning. That's part of what makes them special is that they position themselves so as to make the D unpredictable. You need the MLB to do it.

[Augie]

3 hours ago, newcam2012 said:

I'm sure some teammates will miss Edmunds. However, I feel his departure would have little to no effect on current players. Players are used to the football business. Every year the team changes. I don't see Edmunds as the glue or outstanding leader on the defense. I can't recall ever seeing him gathering up the defense and rallying the defense. Perhaps he leads by quiet example. Either way, Edmunds departure will not negatively impact the team. To think otherwise is giving Edmunds way way too much credit. 

 

The way I see it, it’s not at all about his teammates missing him. Horrible Harry was close to guys, especially Josh, but it’s business and he moved on. 

 

It is somewhat about being a leader, but it is mostly about the quality of play, and can we trust a rookie to get things right in such a critical year where our Super Bowl window is wide open (despite the crazy tough AFC). Do you really want to roll the dice on a new kid leading the defense? That’s above my pay grade, so all I can do is trust in Beane and McD. 

[newcam2012]

21 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

That's not the problem. He's better than many fans think he is. The Bills love him, and that's the important thing. He does a ton more than most fans know, and the Bills have said this over and over. Beane says he's absolutely a building block going forward. You folks don't want to hear that, but that's Beane, not some guy on the internet.

 

You're right that it could be his last season with us. Certainly could be. But we thought that about Milano too, and look what happened.

 

Could he go? Sure. Especially if he insists on getting market value. Milano didn't. Tremaine might, but he might not. We'll see.

 

And no, Poyer and Hyde can't call the defense. The idea's ridiculous. Especially in hostile stadiums nobody's going to hear them, they're too far back. Last thing you want to do is change their positioning. That's part of what makes them special is that they position themselves so as to make the D unpredictable. You need the MLB to do it.

What do you and or Beane think he does well?  He's a solid play caller is what you are saying? Maybe he'd make a good coach? 

 

Edmunds is comparable to the freakish speed burner receiver who has brick hands. Great athleticism but his instincts are God awful too many times. Hes just not dependable and the lack of big plays is icing on the cake. 

 

Beane certainly knows more than me but he's not always correct either. Thos could very well be the case with Edmunds. Sometimes the fans eyeball test is truly a good parameter of accuracy. 

Edited April 11, 2022 by newcam2012

[Bigantall]

19 hours ago, ndirish1978 said:

 

I would pass on the trade and just draft Lloyd in the 1st, WR/RB in the 2nd and CB in the 3rd and Bob's your uncle. No need to trade away your defensive signal caller in the middle of a superbowl window, I'd rather just get a comp pick. 

Not sure why everyone clamoring for a widereceiver so early we need a corner first linebacker second.

[DCofNC]

21 hours ago, Special K said:

Would you select him, and trade Edmunds to a team with a top 15 Second Round Pick??

 

I know there are a lot of what-ifs in this scenario, but if the draft did fall this way, and a team with a top 15 second round pick was interested in trading for Edmunds...I would pull the trigger immediately on this.

 

Although I do not hate Edmunds as much as many on this board, I am certainly not a fan of giving him a huge contract extension either.

 

Lloyd is a beast of a LB, and could easily end up being better than Edmunds quite quickly, plus he would be on a cheaper rookie contract for the next 5 years.

 

I would use the second round pick from the trade to draft Breece Hall, the Bills actual second round pick to draft a speed WR like Metchie III, and use the cap savings from losing Edmunds contract to sign one of the Veteran CB's still on the market.

 

What do you think??

I wouldn’t be surprised if they trade up using Edmunds to get him.  Edmunds is a mis-fit, would clear 12M in cap. Then you have your guy for the next 5 years at a reasonable price. Makes it easier to move around again next year. 

[mrags]

4 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

That's not the problem. He's better than many fans think he is. The Bills love him, and that's the important thing. He does a ton more than most fans know, and the Bills have said this over and over. Beane says he's absolutely a building block going forward. You folks don't want to hear that, but that's Beane, not some guy on the internet.

 

You're right that it could be his last season with us. Certainly could be. But we thought that about Milano too, and look what happened.

 

Could he go? Sure. Especially if he insists on getting market value. Milano didn't. Tremaine might, but he might not. We'll see.

 

And no, Poyer and Hyde can't call the defense. The idea's ridiculous. Especially in hostile stadiums nobody's going to hear them, they're too far back. Last thing you want to do is change their positioning. That's part of what makes them special is that they position themselves so as to make the D unpredictable. You need the MLB to do it.

If he does a ton more than fans know, how do you know he does it? Did someone tell you he does it? I’ve gone over this ad nauseam. No coach or teammate will ever say anything bad about a player like ever. They will always support them no matter what. Even ones that we know are terrible. 
 

we’ve continued to clear up money and not resign him despite being in his final year of a 5th year deal. I think the writing is on the wall, he’s not worth the 12+ or likely 15+ million that he will almost certainly command after being a 2 time pro bowler. 
 

the facts are he’s in on just about every single play because of his freakish physical attributes, but he’s constantly out of position, outmuscled by OLmen, constantly taking wrong angles.

 

fyi, the mass majority of defenses were called by LBs last year but there was a few defenses that were run by S. It’s actually the only other position that’s on the list of being the green dot wearer. Just wanted to point it out that there were Safeties in the nfl that did it and it’s not as ridiculous as you may think. 

Chargers S Derwin James, LB Kyzir White

 

Patriots S Devin McCourty, LB Kyle Van Noy

 

Rams S Jordan Fuller, LB Ernest Jones, LB Troy Reeder, S Eric Weddle

 

Ravens S Chuck Clark, S Geno Stone

[Logic]

I like Edmunds, but his contract is coming up along with Oliver, Knox, and Poyer. I think they can only afford two pay two of them. Personally, I’d like those two to be Knox and Oliver.

 

I don’t think Edmunds is as good as his biggest supporters claim or as bad as his biggest detractors claim. I think I he’s pretty good. But I also think he’ll want to be paid like he’s great, and I don’t want the Bills to do that. He doesn’t make game changing plays, he’s not an alpha tone-setter, and I’m sick of using his age as an excuse.

 

All of this leads me back to this thread: if in the first three rounds of the draft, ILB is BPA at any point, take him. Let him learn and be depth and play the Klein role for a year and then take over for Edmunds next year, and we finally get a good compensatory pick when Edmunds walks.

[ndirish1978]

5 hours ago, Bigantall said:

Not sure why everyone clamoring for a widereceiver so early we need a corner first linebacker second.

 

Because our D is predicated on long armed corners who contribute in the run game. The 1st round has a few CBs who fit the bill as well as being outstanding in coverage, but they are expected to be gone by pick 20ish, so you're looking at good coverage corners in the 2nd who don't fit the scheme/body type that our HC looks for and is an expert in. If there is one position you trust McDermott to develop it should be corner, we've been getting by with a UDFA at CB2 with late rounders backing him up. Value for CB is good in the 3rd round with several players who fit "our type" of CB and it would be a reach to pick them in the 2nd. You can't just plus in a list of positions and say "well we need a Guard the most so we draft the best G rd 1, then we take a CB, then a LB." This isn't like madden where you can just smash a square peg into a round hole. If you're looking for an early round G I'd suggest you look at their RAS score because we are dropping the plodding large men and moving to highly athletic OL 

Edited April 12, 2022 by ndirish1978

[longtimebillsfan]

On 4/10/2022 at 9:02 PM, Special K said:

Would you select him, and trade Edmunds to a team with a top 15 Second Round Pick??

 

I know there are a lot of what-ifs in this scenario, but if the draft did fall this way, and a team with a top 15 second round pick was interested in trading for Edmunds...I would pull the trigger immediately on this.

 

Although I do not hate Edmunds as much as many on this board, I am certainly not a fan of giving him a huge contract extension either.

 

Lloyd is a beast of a LB, and could easily end up being better than Edmunds quite quickly, plus he would be on a cheaper rookie contract for the next 5 years.

 

I would use the second round pick from the trade to draft Breece Hall, the Bills actual second round pick to draft a speed WR like Metchie III, and use the cap savings from losing Edmunds contract to sign one of the Veteran CB's still on the market.

 

What do you think??

I do not know Lloyd specifically, but if his upside is as promising as you believe it is, your concept makes sense.  At some point we will need to replace some veterans with talented players on rookie contacts.

[Garrett Williams]

On 4/10/2022 at 9:18 PM, Vickveto said:

Edmunds replacement will probably be drafted in the first round and Edmunds will probably be traded on draft day. We can’t keep everybody. We use premium picks on premium positions and middle linebacker is a premium position to us.

Brace for impact. Edmunds will more than likely be traded on draft day. And it might be Troy Anderson or Quay Walker at 25

[GunnerBill]

10 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

The Bills love him, and that's the important thing. He does a ton more than most fans know, and the Bills have said this over and over. Beane says he's absolutely a building block going forward. You folks don't want to hear that, but that's Beane, not some guy on the internet.

 

Until recently I have always been on "the Bills love him" train. But actually in his end of season presser this past January I thought Beane was more circumspect. He talked a lot about the areas that Edmunds needed to improve - getting off blocks still being one - and said he thinks he will be "better in year 5" which is a damning with faint praise statement if ever I heard one. I know he was more effusive at the Combine recently, said "we definitely do" when asked if they see Tremaine as a building block, said he "gets" the criticism but "isn't in that camp" and talked about him as a "match-up" linebacker. But my overall sense from the two pressers is that Beane is starting to just get a little frustrated that Tremaine isn't where they hoped he'd be by this stage. I think they still really like Tremaine as a person and they still believe in him as a player, but there is just a little bit of frustration and doubt that has crept in over the past 12 months. 

 

12 months ago I was strongly of the view that they would extend Tremaine this offseason. If I was pricing the market now I think the most likely outcome is they let his 5th year play out and if they want to keep him they work on a deal next spring before he hits free agency.

[Beerball]

On 4/11/2022 at 12:16 AM, ndirish1978 said:

 

I would pass on the trade and just draft Lloyd in the 1st, WR/RB in the 2nd and CB in the 3rd and Bob's your uncle. No need to trade away your defensive signal caller in the middle of a superbowl window, I'd rather just get a comp pick. 

So, you let him walk for a comp pick which at best is a third vs. the OPs scenario where he garners a second?

[Thurman#1]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Until recently I have always been on "the Bills love him" train. But actually in his end of season presser this past January I thought Beane was more circumspect. He talked a lot about the areas that Edmunds needed to improve - getting off blocks still being one - and said he thinks he will be "better in year 5" which is a damning with faint praise statement if ever I heard one. I know he was more effusive at the Combine recently, said "we definitely do" when asked if they see Tremaine as a building block, said he "gets" the criticism but "isn't in that camp" and talked about him as a "match-up" linebacker. But my overall sense from the two pressers is that Beane is starting to just get a little frustrated that Tremaine isn't where they hoped he'd be by this stage. I think they still really like Tremaine as a person and they still believe in him as a player, but there is just a little bit of frustration and doubt that has crept in over the past 12 months. 

 

12 months ago I was strongly of the view that they would extend Tremaine this offseason. If I was pricing the market now I think the most likely outcome is they let his 5th year play out and if they want to keep him they work on a deal next spring before he hits free agency.

 

 

Beane said, "Yeah, we definitely do consider him a core building block moving forward." 

 

"Definitely." "Core building block."

 

As for the season-ending PC, I don't see any reason to think it was faint praise. Here's what the News said Beane said:

 

 

"'I thought Tremaine did a really good job again,' the GM said at his end-of-season news conference. 'His leadership, Tremaine is a quieter guy, probably if you compare him and Josh (Allen), they're both the quarterbacks of their side of the ball. Tremaine is naturally quieter, more lead by example. But when he speaks, guys do listen.

 

“I think, year by year, he's more comfortable being that guy, being that alpha, even though maybe it's not innately natural to him. Tremaine has done some really good things. I thought his physicality improved this year … getting off blocks, I thought all that improved. There's still things that he wants to get better at and we think going into next year, he's a young player still, but going into year five, we think he'll be even better.”

 

Fair enough to say he's not giving a completely positive take there, but it's not weak either.

 

If we do draft Devin Lloyd, it'll be very very clear what they think. I don't think they want to do that. My guess would be an LB in Round 3 - 5, something like that, hoping to replace Klein and maybe hope he turns out to be good enough to do more.

Edited April 12, 2022 by Thurman#1

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Beane said, "Yeah, we definitely do consider him a core building block moving forward." 

 

"Definitely." "Core building block."

 

As for the season-ending PC, I don't see any reason to think it was faint praise. Here's what the News said Beane said:

 

 

"'I thought Tremaine did a really good job again,' the GM said at his end-of-season news conference. 'His leadership, Tremaine is a quieter guy, probably if you compare him and Josh (Allen), they're both the quarterbacks of their side of the ball. Tremaine is naturally quieter, more lead by example. But when he speaks, guys do listen.

 

“I think, year by year, he's more comfortable being that guy, being that alpha, even though maybe it's not innately natural to him. Tremaine has done some really good things. I thought his physicality improved this year … getting off blocks, I thought all that improved. There's still things that he wants to get better at and we think going into next year, he's a young player still, but going into year five, we think he'll be even better.”

 

Fair enough to say he's not giving a completely positive take there, but it's not weak either.

 

If we do draft Devin Lloyd, it'll be very very clear what they think. I don't think they want to do that. My guess would be an LB in Round 3 - 5, something like that, hoping to replace Klein and maybe hope he turns out to be good enough to do more.

 

Yes, the January presser was definitely not the typical response when asked about Edmunds. I didn't say it was weak, I said it was somewhat more circumspect. And it was. It was a marked difference in tone from where they have been before. Maybe that is why he went so strong at the Combine which I agree was more the "par for the course" Beane answer on Tremaine. Effusive and talking about him as a quiet leader. I still think they really want Edmunds to work out. But my sense is that there are more doubts now than there were a year ago. I think the tone of what he said in January demonstrated that.

 

On draft in a linebacker I agree with you. Won't be rounds one or two, but they will take a mid-round guy. I don't know that would be definitive either way on Tremaine. But I now suspect he is playing on the option this year. That does, in its own way, indicate that their belief has weakened to some extent. If they are willing to let year 5 play out on a guy they drafted in the first round when what they have said and done generally is draft, develop, re-sign... then it indicates some concerns exist in the building. Despite Beane seeming definitive at the combine on the building block point. 

 

The only way for them to demonstrate that they are still truly all in on Edmunds is to extend him this offseason. That could still happen. It wouldn't shock me if it does. But my instinct now is that they are not going to. I still think they really like Tremaine. I'm not sure I still think they are quite as in love with him as they were. 

[Thurman#1]

7 hours ago, mrags said:

If he does a ton more than fans know, how do you know he does it? Did someone tell you he does it? I’ve gone over this ad nauseam. No coach or teammate will ever say anything bad about a player like ever. They will always support them no matter what. Even ones that we know are terrible. 

 

 

 

Oh, please. 

 

We know it because they've specifically gone out of their way to say it.

 

Your argument here is deeply off the mark. When Beane doesn't want to say something good, he and McDermott have both shown a mastery of Crash Davis speak where they say nice things that mean nothing.

 

They go immediately from commenting on the player to commenting on the room. Asked about an a lineman they'll say, "Well, we really like the OL room. Of course, you need improvement everywhere but overall we're quite happy with things in that room."

 

And they've said plenty of times things that were not complimentary at all about the players. No, they wouldn't ever say, "He sucks and we have no respect for him," of course.

 

But remember when they said this, ""It was never where the opposing defense was like, ‘Man we’ve really got to stop their tight ends from going off,' " Beane said. They have zero problems indicating unhappiness.

 

Your argument, that they can't say bad things, is what always comes up when somebody disagrees with something Beane or McDermott says. They have a history of being willing to say things that aren't all that nice sometimes, and of throwing out the sports cliches that mean nothing. "Player X, we'd go to war with him. I want him beside me in an alley fight. I want him in my foxhole. He gives 110% every day. He's really a football player."

 

When you see those, you know they're not willing to give specifics. They've given specifics over and over again with Edmunds, most recently that he's definitely a core building block moving forwards.

 

 

Edited April 12, 2022 by Thurman#1

[Thurman#1]

5 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Yes, the January presser was definitely not the typical response when asked about Edmunds. I didn't say it was weak, I said it was somewhat more circumspect. And it was. It was a marked difference in tone from where they have been before. Maybe that is why he went so strong at the Combine which I agree was more the "par for the course" Beane answer on Tremaine. Effusive and talking about him as a quiet leader. I still think they really want Edmunds to work out. But my sense is that there are more doubts now than there were a year ago. I think the tone of what he said in January demonstrated that.

 

On draft in a linebacker I agree with you. Won't be rounds one or two, but they will take a mid-round guy. I don't know that would be definitive either way on Tremaine. But I now suspect he is playing on the option this year. That does, in its own way, indicate that their belief has weakened to some extent. If they are willing to let year 5 play out on a guy they drafted in the first round when what they have said and done generally is draft, develop, re-sign... then it indicates some concerns exist in the building. Despite Beane seeming definitive at the combine on the building block point. 

 

The only way for them to demonstrate that they are still truly all in on Edmunds is to extend him this offseason. That could still happen. It wouldn't shock me if it does. But my instinct now is that they are not going to. I still think they really like Tremaine. I'm not sure I still think they are quite as in love with him as they were. 

 

 

You certainly could be right. 

 

My guess was that they would extend him when they feel the time was right, without feeling any particular hurry, depending on how much he was asking.

 

And that the odds dropped a bit after the cap impact from bringing in Von Miller and putting ourselves on shakier ground there.

 

I don't think, personally, that it makes sense that they were circumspect early and then changed things around by being much stronger. If they'd wanted to be circumspect, they'd have left things as they were.  Looked to me like both are quite positive with certainly the second being more powerfully so.