Am I the only one who hasn't completely given up on Zack Moss?

[buffalostu2]

I am not 100% behind him, but everyone here should go back and watch the KC regular season game.  He was great in that game and big part of why we won.   

 

 

[TheBrownBear]

I've always liked Moss going back to his days at Utah, but as others said, he really struggled to find a rhythm and the holes last season.  Watching him run into his lineman was pretty frustrating at times.  I haven't completely given up on him and think he can play a role next year.   We'll see.

[transient]

My money's on the rolling stone.

[Matt_In_NH]

I have not given up on him.   But also not holding my breath.  he does not seem to be a very good receiver and that is one quality I think the Bills with Josh Allen should have with their RB.  Singletary is ok in that department.

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

10 minutes ago, 13 Second Prevent Defense said:

I have not given up on him.   But also not holding my breath.  he does not seem to be a very good receiver and that is one quality I think the Bills with Josh Allen should have with their RB.  Singletary is ok in that department.

 

DS 50 targets, 40 catches (80% catch rate) for 228 yards or 5.7 yards per reception (4.56 yards per target) and 11 first downs.  DS had an average depth of target of 0.2 with 6 Yards after catch per reception.  Singletary had 5 drops and a 10% drop percentage.  Singletary broke 4 tackles and had a 10% rate of broken tackles per reception.  

 

Moss 32 targets, 23 catches (71.9% catch rate) for 197 yards or 8.6 yards per recpetion (6.16 yards per target) and 12 first downs.  Moss had an average depth of target of 0.8 with 8.7 yards after catch per reception.  Moss had 3 drops and a 9.4% drop percentage.  Moss broke 3 tackles and had an 11.5 percent rate of broken tackles per reception.  

[chris heff]

1 hour ago, T master said:

 

Probably . Why do we need 2 backs of the same stature & not one that compliments the other with a different skill set ?

 

They brought in Moss to be the short yardage basher type back but he doesn't have the A** to be that guy as it has been proven he's not a terrible back but i feel there are backs that would better fit what the Bills are trying to do .

 

Last draft i thought AJ Dillon would be a perfect fit for the Bills he's a bigger more physical back at 6'tall  247 lbs that would be great as Green Bay has shown him to be in short yardage . 

 

This year there are a couple that would like to see the Bills get & may be able to get in the later rounds 1 being Spiller but he may be gone in the earlier part of the second round but another guy i like coming out this year is from Bama Brian Robinson . This guy sounds like exactly what the Bills need .

 

Our short yardage back is 6’5” 240lbs.

 

 

[T master]

Just now, chris heff said:

 

 

Well there is that but how long can he keep that up ? I would rather give him a hand in getting those yards by not having to take that beating & if you heard what this guy did when given the chance in his last year it wasn't bad at all & he's not going anywhere near the top 2 rounds so he can be had at a good deal ! 

[julian]

17 hours ago, DJB said:

Bottom line is that we need an upgrade at RB so that our best guy isnt Allen. 

Problem with that is there’s only about 5 or 6 RBs in the league that constitute an upgrade at RB over Allen

[chris heff]

1 minute ago, T master said:

 

Well there is that but how long can he keep that up ? I would rather give him a hand in getting those yards by not having to take that beating & if you heard what this guy did when given the chance in his last year it wasn't bad at all & he's not going anywhere near the top 2 rounds so he can be had at a good deal ! 

I was kidding, sort of, I’d take flier on a guy like Robinson in the fourth round.

[Matt_In_NH]

10 minutes ago, dneveu said:

 

DS 50 targets, 40 catches (80% catch rate) for 228 yards or 5.7 yards per reception (4.56 yards per target) and 11 first downs.  DS had an average depth of target of 0.2 with 6 Yards after catch per reception.  Singletary had 5 drops and a 10% drop percentage.  Singletary broke 4 tackles and had a 10% rate of broken tackles per reception.  

 

Moss 32 targets, 23 catches (71.9% catch rate) for 197 yards or 8.6 yards per recpetion (6.16 yards per target) and 12 first downs.  Moss had an average depth of target of 0.8 with 8.7 yards after catch per reception.  Moss had 3 drops and a 9.4% drop percentage.  Moss broke 3 tackles and had an 11.5 percent rate of broken tackles per reception.  

Good data from last year and thanks for the information.  I am probably not giving Moss enough credit.   I wonder what it looks like if we open up the sample size and you include both years they have been on the team? 

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

9 minutes ago, 13 Second Prevent Defense said:

Good data from last year and thanks for the information.  I am probably not giving Moss enough credit.   I wonder what it looks like if we open up the sample size and you include both years they have been on the team? 

 

Singletary has a few gripes - Drops and fumbles are the big 2.  His YPC is always propped up on his ability to pull in some extra yards with shifty feet.  He seemed to become a more positive player as a pass catcher as the year went on.  

 

I'm just putting numbers up regarding moss as a runner and pass-catcher simply because I think too often we hit a recency bias and don't acknowledge the entire season.  

1 hour ago, TheBrownBear said:

I've always liked Moss going back to his days at Utah, but as others said, he really struggled to find a rhythm and the holes last season.  Watching him run into his lineman was pretty frustrating at times.  I haven't completely given up on him and think he can play a role next year.   We'll see.

 

It was a trend all year for most of the backs.  

 

[Paup 1995MVP]

18 hours ago, Logic said:

It seems that just about everyone has written off Zack Moss as a reasonable RB2 option going forward. 

I understand that he had a down 2021, but he certainly showed promise in the 2020 season, to the point where he was viewed by many as the Bills' true RB1 heading into 2021. He is a hard running, physical back with good balance and catching ability. He was drafted in the third round just two seasons ago and Beane was very excited to get him (cue pithy Cody Ford remark here).

A few things stick out to me:

1.) In 2020, when the Bills offensive line switched to primarily zone running, Moss became very effective. Singletary, less so. In 2021, the Bills tried to do a bit of everything, rolled out the "RB by committee" approach again, realized it was a failure by mid-season, and scrapped it for a heavy reliance on Singletary and power gap runs and pin-and-pull concepts. These are Singletary's bread and butter, so whereas he had struggled in 2020, he rebounded and flourished behind the blocking scheme with which he is most effective. Moss, on the other hand, went the opposite direction. After averaging 4.3 ypc in 2020, he averaged just 3.6 in 2021.

Here's the thing with that: if I'm not mistaken, new o-line coach Aaron Kromer will most likely be bringing in the wide zone, one-cut-and-go stuff full time. As just mentioned, Moss thrived behind this running scheme in 2020. Why doesn't anyone think he can thrive again?

2.) We saw just last year, with Singletary himself, the following phenomenon: A running back comes in and thrives as a rookie, has a sophomore slump partly due to change in blocking scheme, then rebounds in year three upon returning to the blocking scheme with which he's most comfortable. This exact scenario seems to be playing out with Zack Moss right now. Nice year one, down year two behind new blocking scheme...why can't year three with a zone running scheme see the same type of bounce-back from him that Singletary enjoyed?

I'm not saying he's ever gonna be a top five back or light the league on fire, but so many Bills fans seem completely ready to ship him off for a late round pick or cut him outright, and certainly aren't counting on him to contribute meaningfully in 2022, and I can't quite figure out why that is. It's not as if he has NEVER shown that he can be effective in this league. Bring up the 2020 game highlights and you see plenty of really nice plays and both the running and passing game from Moss. Does everyone just assume he completely forgot how to play football?

If you're one of those who have given up on Zack Moss, I'm curious to know your reasoning. I'm also curious to know: if you don't believe he can rebound behind better OL personnel, with a better o-line coach and a blocking scheme better suited to his skills, WHY don't you believe it?



 

Why are you being an apologist for Zack Moss and blaming blocking schemes, etc?  The guy doesn't have much of a burst, or much vision.  We all watch the games.  No need to overanalyze the situation.  Some guys have a real feel for how to play NFL running back.  And some have some exceptional physical abilities.  The great ones combine it all, having the feel (including the vision) on where the holes will be.  And then bam they exploding right thru and are into the second level.  (Think Marshall Faulk and Thurman Thomas)  Zack Moss is certainly not that gifted.  Hopefully we will find better.  In fact, I would say that Duke Johnson has proven himself to be somewhat better then Moss during his NFL career.  Now if Moss can up his game, and be a difference maker, then I don't have a problem with him making the team.  But that remains to be seen. 

[JoshAllin]

41 minutes ago, julian said:

Problem with that is there’s only about 5 or 6 RBs in the league that constitute an upgrade at RB over Allen

I'd say only 1. Henry and even then he doesn't look as automatic as Allen at times. That 4th and 1 choke in the playoffs was bad

 

 

Edited April 11, 2022 by motorj

[BillsShredder83]

13 hours ago, Richard Noggin said:

I'm on board with the first half here. Hard to imagine Ford being more successful in a zone scheme, given his limited lateral athleticism. Kromer's a heck of a coach, no doubt, but he ain't a miracle worker. 

 

Spencer Brown, with his ELITE traits and his ELITE off-season training regimen (working with an elite tackle who had similar traits)...and his ELITE physical joy for the game (see also: almost any replay)...that's a guy who is more likely to PROgress rather than REgress. It ain't guaranteed, but it's likely. Especially given the new coaching and new scheme that emphasizes movement. 

Whos he been working with?

[MJS]

I think the team has shown they don't have confidence in him. His playing time diminished to basically nothing. They made RB2 a priority in free agency.

 

Maybe he can turn things around, but he has an uphill battle to fight. But I think Singletary can do what Moss can do, just at a higher level.

[CapeBreton]

 

 

 

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

20 minutes ago, Paup 1995MVP said:

Why are you being an apologist for Zack Moss and blaming blocking schemes, etc?  The guy doesn't have much of a burst, or much vision.  We all watch the games.  No need to overanalyze the situation.  Some guys have a real feel for how to play NFL running back.  And some have some exceptional physical abilities.  The great ones combine it all, having the feel (including the vision) on where the holes will be.  And then bam they exploding right thru and are into the second level.  (Think Marshall Faulk and Thurman Thomas)  Zack Moss is certainly not that gifted.  Hopefully we will find better.  In fact, I would say that Duke Johnson has proven himself to be somewhat better then Moss during his NFL career.  Now if Moss can up his game, and be a difference maker, then I don't have a problem with him making the team.  But that remains to be seen. 

 

I'm not an apologist for moss or singletary or even the blocking schemes.  Blocking execution was poor last year.  The majority of Moss carries came in the first half of the year.  I think he had a fairly major fumble as well.  Breida got some playing time and was shown to be incapable as a blocker and also had ball security issues.  

 

Buffalo backs both ranked near the bottom (or the absolute bottom in Moss case) in yards before contact.  There are over 1500 snaps with boettger ford and feliciano on the field, and all 3 were absolutely awful.  Williams was much better at guard than tackle, but all 4 of them were absolute disasters at zone run blocking.  There is no "vision" or "cutback" when the right guard just lets the backside pursuit hit them behind the LOS.  

[BigAl2526]

It's pretty much irrelevant whether or not fans have given up on him.  He'll be on the roster in training camp, but there's going to be competition.  If he demonstrates significant improvement, he might stick and have a role in the upcoming season, but he sure hasn't earned an assumed role as a #2 back on the team to say nothing about starting.  At this point he'll be fighting for a roster spot.

[Giuseppe Tognarelli]

We wrote him off when he inexplicably failed to run into the open endzone against the Patriots on Monday night and win the game. That's when he stopped playing, too.

[Richard Noggin]

3 hours ago, BillsShredder83 said:

Whos he been working with?

The former all-pro who played with the 49ers...Joe Staley? Is that his name?