Am I the only one who hasn't completely given up on Zack Moss?

[bmur66]

What others are saying about his "vision" is accurate. I don't recall what game it was but I saw a video breakdown where the O line did their job and opened up some nice running lanes. Multiple time Moss missed the hole and ran into a wall. He didn't play much after that game.

Singletary played well when he was featured. At times I thought we had TT out there. I still want to see a major upgrade behind him.

Edited April 11, 2022 by bmur66

[Logic]

6 hours ago, longtimebillsfan said:

You need to lighten up.  People are allowed to voice an opinion contrary to yours.

 

Many believe Moss lacks what it takes to be an effective NFL caliber running back.  No need for such personal attacks to other posters.

 

If you want to start a thread, put on your big boy pants and man up.

 

Since you don't like one word responses, I hope this response meets your standards.

 

And to answer your original question...yes.

The post to which you're replying is an inside joke with a friend of mine.

Take your own advice.

[DabillsDaBillsDaBills]

Moss's "promising" rookie season was worse than Singletary's sophomore slump season. Moss's sophomore season was less of a slump and more of a disaster (even accounting for the shoddy O-line). 

 

His play should hopefully improve this season, but his ceiling seems to be mediocre RB2.  

 

RB2 is one of the least valuable positions on the roster, so can't say that I care one way or the other if we try to replace him this offseason or give him more time. 

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

1 minute ago, DabillsDaBillsDaBills said:

Moss's "promising" rookie season was worse than Singletary's sophomore slump season. Moss's sophomore season was less of a slump and more of a disaster (even accounting for the shoddy O-line). 

 

His play should hopefully improve this season, but his ceiling seems to be mediocre RB2.  

 

RB2 is one of the least valuable positions on the roster, so can't say that I care one way or the other if we try to replace him this offseason or give him more time. 

 

Yep - RB2 is usually someone on a rookie contract so... he needs to find a niche.  They tried short yardage back but between him not having the juice and the offensive line being incapable of moving anyone up the middle, they tended to lean on allen outside the hashes in those situations.  

 

The one cut ability is there, he can catch, etc.  I dunno what his issue was last year though - apprehensive and just slow.  Speed can be learned, or at least some burst can be learned.  Whether our line is capable of creating the necessary cutback lanes in zone is where I'm concerned.  Losing feliciano and williams honestly helps, as both were just so bad as backside guards and tackles in zone.  

[Ramza86]

I dont want to write him off, but I never liked the idea of even split on RBs.

 

You get your best RB and he runs every single time hes not exhausted. 

[Fan in Chicago]

IMO, this is his make-or-break year. In a slight parallel, I had given up on Knox at this time last year but he did have a very good 2021. Similarly, I am hoping Moss also plays better. Two things though - the OL still needs upgrade and I am hoping Beane is not done yet. Saffold is better at run blocking but we need an upgrade at RT. Secondly, Moss doesnt look like he can be the feature back in case of a Singletary injury. So we still need a Plan B for the overall RB room. 

[Logic]

1 minute ago, Fan in Chicago said:

IMO, this is his make-or-break year. In a slight parallel, I had given up on Knox at this time last year but he did have a very good 2021. Similarly, I am hoping Moss also plays better. Two things though - the OL still needs upgrade and I am hoping Beane is not done yet. Saffold is better at run blocking but we need an upgrade at RT. Secondly, Moss doesnt look like he can be the feature back in case of a Singletary injury. So we still need a Plan B for the overall RB room. 

Yep. Lots of folks gave up on both Singletary AND Knox prior to their third seasons, and both played pivotal roles in the Bills winning another AFC East title.

I'm not saying Moss is a sure thing to have a bounce-back year three, but I think it's more likely than unlikely.

 

[chris heff]

10 hours ago, Vickveto said:

Ford gets paid too much for the staff not to  believe in him. he would be cut or restructured by now. Brown was selected in the third round you have to bet on his improvement. Getting a day one top ten running back or Another quality speed receiver is worth more to us in the first two rounds.

 

but  we will probably draft a linebacker in the first round and trade Edmonds on draft day.

Ford is on a rookie contract, which is probably the only reason he is still there. Rookie contracts cannot be renegotiated or altered in any way until the final game of year three. 

Edited April 11, 2022 by chris heff

[longtimebillsfan]

28 minutes ago, Logic said:

The post to which you're replying is an inside joke with a friend of mine.

Take your own advice.

Then why were you whining about one word responses?

Edited April 11, 2022 by longtimebillsfan

[chris heff]

Something else was going on with Moss last year. Wasn’t he a healthy scratch opening day? Could be bad practice habits, bad attitude, who knows. Just seems the coaching staff lost faith in him very early on.

[machine gun kelly]

1 hour ago, dneveu said:

 

It wasn't vision.  The offensive line was absolute trash for much of last year.  

If that were the case, why was Singletary so successful the last six games or so.  I was all for him in 2020, but he just couldn’t punch through hole and the line always gets blamed.

 

With Saffold, Brown, Dawkins and Morse, we have four of the five slots set.  Bates and Boettger are going to duke it  out unless we take a G in the second or third.

 

FWIW, I still love the Syracuse article last week moving up to the Giants pick for Sauce.  It’s what this team needs to get to final step.

[Logic]

10 minutes ago, longtimebillsfan said:

Then why were you whining about one word responses?

I just think they're a silly waste of time that does nothing to further the discourse.

I made a thoughtful post ending in the question "if you've given up on him, why? If you don't think he can improve, why not?".

So to me, it seemed reasonable that a more useful response than "yes" would have been one that made even a short, one sentence attempt to answer one of those questions or explain one's opinion. If you're interested enough to read the post and respond to it, it seems reasonable to me that you'd be interested enough to explain your position -- however cursory or brief that explanation may be.

Of course, you ultimately have the freedom to give a one word response that offers no detail, just as I have the freedom to call that one word response a waste of time that does nothing to further the discussion.

[longtimebillsfan]

4 minutes ago, Logic said:

I just think they're a silly waste of time that does nothing to further the discourse.

I made a thoughtful post ending in the question "if you've given up on him, why? If you don't think he can improve, why not?".

So to me, it seemed reasonable that a more useful response than "yes" would have been one that made even a short, one sentence attempt to answer one of those questions or explain one's opinion. If you're interested enough to read the post and respond to it, it seems reasonable to me that you'd be interested enough to explain your position -- however cursory or brief that explanation may be.

Of course, you ultimately have the freedom to give a one word response that offers no detail, just as I have the freedom to call that one word response a waste of time that does nothing to further the discussion.

You have way too much time on your hands.

 

Tapping out.

 

Peace.

[Magox]

In my view we need three backs.

 

Duke Johnson will most likely be the "Third down" and relief back.

 

Motor has the inside track to be the primary back

 

And I believe that the Bills want a "Homerun" back  (speed) who could end up being the primary back.

 

The Bills don't have a speed back and I think Moss at best gives more of the same of what we already have.

[Logic]

4 minutes ago, longtimebillsfan said:

You have way too much time on your hands.

 

Tapping out.

 

Peace.

Says the guy who made three separate replies to a topic he has no interest in discussing...on a football message board....at 11am on a Monday.

Sayonara! 

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

10 minutes ago, machine gun kelly said:

If that were the case, why was Singletary so successful the last six games or so.  I was all for him in 2020, but he just couldn’t punch through hole and the line always gets blamed.

 

With Saffold, Brown, Dawkins and Morse, we have four of the five slots set.  Bates and Boettger are going to duke it  out unless we take a G in the second or third.

 

FWIW, I still love the Syracuse article last week moving up to the Giants pick for Sauce.  It’s what this team needs to get to final step.

 

Regarding the bolded - they made a concerted effort to fix it.  They ran the ball more from under center (and just more in general), and they utilized more pin & pull concepts to better utilize morse and brown's athleticism.  Running the ball against Carolina, Atlanta, and the Jets shouldn't be a huge challenge.  They're all trash defenses.  

 

Singletary had a Yards before contact of 2.3 on the year, moss had 1.5 (10 games actually where his YBC was under 1.5).  1.5 yards before contact was 3rd to last in the NFL with Salvon Ahmed and Tony Jones as the only players with lower. 

 

Yards after contact were 2.3 for DS and 2.1 for moss.  There are 44 players with 50 or more carries who had a lower yards after contact including Zeke Elliot, Joe Mixon, Antonio Gibson, and Dalvin Cook.  

 

Moss broke 14 tackles vs 13 for DS.  Of Moss' 345 yards rushing, 202 came after contact.  14 Broken tackles was good for a tie for 19th in the NFL.  His attempts per broken tackle was 6.9 attempts per broken tackle - which was 3rd in the NFL behind Javonte Williams and Chris Carson.  

[JESSEFEFFER]

31 minutes ago, chris heff said:

Something else was going on with Moss last year. Wasn’t he a healthy scratch opening day? Could be bad practice habits, bad attitude, who knows. Just seems the coaching staff lost faith in him very early on.

 

 

Maybe lingering effects of the injury/surgery/rehab suffered in the playoff game vs. the Colts?  It was reported to be a relatively minor procedure.  I remember McDermott alluding to a better week of practice for the week 2 game vs. the Dolphins.  It was not a good 2021 for Moss.  Slow start, struggling OL situation for most of the year, concussion, limited use when the OL got better.  He really needs to show some signs of a better 2022, maybe starting with the OTAs.

[Alphadawg7]

16 hours ago, Logic said:

It seems that just about everyone has written off Zack Moss as a reasonable RB2 option going forward. 

I understand that he had a down 2021, but he certainly showed promise in the 2020 season, to the point where he was viewed by many as the Bills' true RB1 heading into 2021. He is a hard running, physical back with good balance and catching ability. He was drafted in the third round just two seasons ago and Beane was very excited to get him (cue pithy Cody Ford remark here).

A few things stick out to me:

1.) In 2020, when the Bills offensive line switched to primarily zone running, Moss became very effective. Singletary, less so. In 2021, the Bills tried to do a bit of everything, rolled out the "RB by committee" approach again, realized it was a failure by mid-season, and scrapped it for a heavy reliance on Singletary and power gap runs and pin-and-pull concepts. These are Singletary's bread and butter, so whereas he had struggled in 2020, he rebounded and flourished behind the blocking scheme with which he is most effective. Moss, on the other hand, went the opposite direction. After averaging 4.3 ypc in 2020, he averaged just 3.6 in 2021.

Here's the thing with that: if I'm not mistaken, new o-line coach Aaron Kromer will most likely be bringing in the wide zone, one-cut-and-go stuff full time. As just mentioned, Moss thrived behind this running scheme in 2020. Why doesn't anyone think he can thrive again?

2.) We saw just last year, with Singletary himself, the following phenomenon: A running back comes in and thrives as a rookie, has a sophomore slump partly due to change in blocking scheme, then rebounds in year three upon returning to the blocking scheme with which he's most comfortable. This exact scenario seems to be playing out with Zack Moss right now. Nice year one, down year two behind new blocking scheme...why can't year three with a zone running scheme see the same type of bounce-back from him that Singletary enjoyed?

I'm not saying he's ever gonna be a top five back or light the league on fire, but so many Bills fans seem completely ready to ship him off for a late round pick or cut him outright, and certainly aren't counting on him to contribute meaningfully in 2022, and I can't quite figure out why that is. It's not as if he has NEVER shown that he can be effective in this league. Bring up the 2020 game highlights and you see plenty of really nice plays and both the running and passing game from Moss. Does everyone just assume he completely forgot how to play football?

If you're one of those who have given up on Zack Moss, I'm curious to know your reasoning. I'm also curious to know: if you don't believe he can rebound behind better OL personnel, with a better o-line coach and a blocking scheme better suited to his skills, WHY don't you believe it?



 

 

I have not given up on Moss, nor should anyone else at this point.  Does that mean he will breakout?  No, just means there is still potential there as he has been given few opportunities, and most occurred early on.  In those earlier opportunities he showed some promise, but in 2021 Devin really started to seize control of the primary ball carrier duties, and rightfully so (and I even predicted this in the preseason, he is just simply the better RB). 

 

But Moss still has potential to be a contributing RB, and probably best suited for a 2 back system where the second RB was a speedy receiving back.  Something like the Saints with Kamara or Atlanta with Patterson.   Again, doesn't automatically mean he would excel in a situation like that, just saying I wouldn't rule him out as being someone who could do well as part of a 1-2 punch like that.  

 

Now, that being said, I do not think he is better than Devin at this stage, so I have kind of written him off being a contributor here in Buffalo.  And for me, he is a guy who has a good chance of being traded sometime during this offseason.  And if we do end up drafting a RB, he could end up being cut as well if they don't find a trade partner.   

 

I could see a team that needs RB depth or someone to compete for the #1 RB spot look into Moss's availability.  Teams that would make some sense:  Houston, Giants, Jets, Falcons, Seattle, AZ, Ravens, Saints, etc.  Some of these teams he could compete as a primary or early down ball carrier and others he could be some insurance behind some RB's who have struggled with injuries.  

 

And honestly, I do think there is a real possibility he is not on the roster week 1, and mainly because Bills have reportedly shown interest in potential RB trades this offseason and have been bringing various RB's in for pre draft visits.  So certainly feels like they are looking to add someone, and I highly doubt Duke Johnson fills that need for them.  If we draft someone in the first 4 rounds, I think that would almost seal Moss's fate of not being here come week 1.  

Edited April 11, 2022 by Alphadawg7

[T master]

16 hours ago, Logic said:

It seems that just about everyone has written off Zack Moss as a reasonable RB2 option going forward. 

I understand that he had a down 2021, but he certainly showed promise in the 2020 season, to the point where he was viewed by many as the Bills' true RB1 heading into 2021. He is a hard running, physical back with good balance and catching ability. He was drafted in the third round just two seasons ago and Beane was very excited to get him (cue pithy Cody Ford remark here).

A few things stick out to me:

1.) In 2020, when the Bills offensive line switched to primarily zone running, Moss became very effective. Singletary, less so. In 2021, the Bills tried to do a bit of everything, rolled out the "RB by committee" approach again, realized it was a failure by mid-season, and scrapped it for a heavy reliance on Singletary and power gap runs and pin-and-pull concepts. These are Singletary's bread and butter, so whereas he had struggled in 2020, he rebounded and flourished behind the blocking scheme with which he is most effective. Moss, on the other hand, went the opposite direction. After averaging 4.3 ypc in 2020, he averaged just 3.6 in 2021.

Here's the thing with that: if I'm not mistaken, new o-line coach Aaron Kromer will most likely be bringing in the wide zone, one-cut-and-go stuff full time. As just mentioned, Moss thrived behind this running scheme in 2020. Why doesn't anyone think he can thrive again?

2.) We saw just last year, with Singletary himself, the following phenomenon: A running back comes in and thrives as a rookie, has a sophomore slump partly due to change in blocking scheme, then rebounds in year three upon returning to the blocking scheme with which he's most comfortable. This exact scenario seems to be playing out with Zack Moss right now. Nice year one, down year two behind new blocking scheme...why can't year three with a zone running scheme see the same type of bounce-back from him that Singletary enjoyed?

I'm not saying he's ever gonna be a top five back or light the league on fire, but so many Bills fans seem completely ready to ship him off for a late round pick or cut him outright, and certainly aren't counting on him to contribute meaningfully in 2022, and I can't quite figure out why that is. It's not as if he has NEVER shown that he can be effective in this league. Bring up the 2020 game highlights and you see plenty of really nice plays and both the running and passing game from Moss. Does everyone just assume he completely forgot how to play football?

If you're one of those who have given up on Zack Moss, I'm curious to know your reasoning. I'm also curious to know: if you don't believe he can rebound behind better OL personnel, with a better o-line coach and a blocking scheme better suited to his skills, WHY don't you believe it?



 

 

Probably . Why do we need 2 backs of the same stature & not one that compliments the other with a different skill set ?

 

They brought in Moss to be the short yardage basher type back but he doesn't have the A** to be that guy as it has been proven he's not a terrible back but i feel there are backs that would better fit what the Bills are trying to do .

 

Last draft i thought AJ Dillon would be a perfect fit for the Bills he's a bigger more physical back at 6'tall  247 lbs that would be great as Green Bay has shown him to be in short yardage . 

 

This year there are a couple that would like to see the Bills get & may be able to get in the later rounds 1 being Spiller but he may be gone in the earlier part of the second round but another guy i like coming out this year is from Bama Brian Robinson . This guy sounds like exactly what the Bills need .

 

 

 

[msw2112]

My take is that Moss is more of a power back than a speed or shifty back, but he's simply too small to be effective in the NFL in that role.  He was able to do it against PAC-12 defenses in college, but doesn't have enough size to do it in the NFL.

 

How many times did he fail to get the necessary yardage on 3rd or 4th and short, or to find the end zone inside the 10 yard line?  He's certainly been given plenty of these opportunities since he joined the Bills.  The Bills basically gave up on this and have given the short yardage role to Allen.  That's fine once in a while, with the game on the line, or in the playoffs, but is not a good regular plan.  Allen is great at it (the Tennessee game notwithstanding), but the injury risk to your MVP caliber QB is too high.