Am I the only one who hasn't completely given up on Zack Moss?

[Vickveto]

34 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

And honestly RB is the least of my concern as a Bills fan… the offensive line is more of the concern with respect to the run game(and pass game for that matter)…..invest in some high quality prospects on the offensive line this draft and with a formidable group you can find guys off the street to carry the load just fine.

How much capital do we need to invest in the trenches? I feel like we have invested a ton in the last two years and it has paid dividends. I don’t feel like we are in the top half of the league in terms of overall playmaker talent. We need more speed.

[Don Otreply]

   Imo, Moss has not been markedly better than Singletary for any duration of time that can be considered significant, on the other hand, Singletary’s output has been significantly better than Moss’s for periods that have been significant for the Bills.
 

  It would appear that when either RB has had a blocking scheme that suits their talents, Singletary has had better outcomes. (YPC average) as compared to Moss.
 

    This does not mean Moss could not show better in his future, it’s up to him to make himself better and more versatile, we shall see, maybe this past season will have lit a fire under his azs, and Singletary can not afford to sit on his laurels for even a minute, and I think he knows that. Both are likely to show up at camp in the best shape of there pro lives…, much to the benefit of Bills team, 

[LeGOATski]

Moss was never better than Singletary to me. 

[JoshAllin]

2 hours ago, unbillievable said:

I have a feeling that Singletary will get traded, Moss will be a healthy scratch, and a rookie plus Duke will be the backfield.

 

 

That would be a pretty weird move considering those 2 have plenty of playoff experience over a rookie and F.A in the backfield. I still think it'll be Motor, Moss/Duke and maybe a 3rd rounder

 

 

Edited April 11, 2022 by motorj

[Ethan in Cleveland]

Impossible to know. The oline run blocking was terrible until they finally installed Bates at guard, Williams at guard, and Brown at OT. By then they also has committed to Singletary getting 75% or more of the carries. Singletary wasn't much better than Moss early in the season. 

Moss is probably fine as RB#2. 

Bills have bigger immediate issues at CB and OT. They also have longer term issues at MLB, WR, NT, safety, and C/OG.  Last year I would have been fine drafting Harris. This year they should pass on a RB and focus on the spots listed above.

[hondo in seattle]

50 minutes ago, Logic said:

For those that ask “what sets Moss apart from being Just a Guy?”, my answer is:

 

Agility, quickness, balance, tackle breaking ability, compact build, runs with good pad level, very good run blocker.

 

Let me repeat: I’m not saying he’ll ever be a top 10 back in this league. I’m saying that has utility on an NFL roster as an RB2 who can get you 800-1000 yards from scrimmage per season, and that’s not useless.

 

Here are some highlights from his 2020 season, which saw him post three games with more than six yards per carry:

 

 

 

Here’s an article from PFF, specifically about Moss, pointing out that 40 times are less predictive of running back success in the NFL than agility and quickness based tests like the 3-cone.

 

https://www.pff.com/news/draft-2020-nfl-draft-forget-the-40-yard-dash-time-zack-moss-excels-at-the-things-that-matter-for-a-running-back

 

 

And lastly, a reminder of one of the reasons the Bills were excited to draft Moss to begin with:

 

 

 

 

I’m just saying the guy has skill. Dynamic RB1? No. Useless bust? Absolutely not. He can be a player in this offense.

 

 

I watched the whole Youtube video, enjoyed some of his runs, and still thought: JAG.  Every NFL back getting carries has an occasional good run or catch.  I didn't see Moss do anything a back on any other team couldn't do.  Sorry.

 

Still, Moss is a serviceable #2.   

 

I would love to have a back who's a big power runner...  Or a speedster who can run routes and catch...  A real weapon.

[billsfan89]

I haven't given up on Moss either. I think he can be a fine RB2 that brings in some power to a position that lacks power beyond his own abilities. But I don't think he will ever be anything more than a role player. He can be productive just not sure if he is more than a solid RB2 at best.

[Thurman#1]

2 hours ago, unbillievable said:

I have a feeling that Singletary will get traded, Moss will be a healthy scratch, and a rookie plus Duke will be the backfield.

 

 

 

 

I have a feeling very little of that happens,  honestly.

 

 

 

[AlCowlingsTaxiService]

1 hour ago, Logic said:

Each one of you who offer a one word reply are really adding nuance and contributing positively to the discourse. Thank you.

Thanks 

[Thurman#1]

50 minutes ago, Vickveto said:

How much capital do we need to invest in the trenches? I feel like we have invested a ton in the last two years and it has paid dividends. I don’t feel like we are in the top half of the league in terms of overall playmaker talent. We need more speed.

 

 

I can't imagine how you feel that way. Not in the top half? With Diggs, Davis, Knox and Crowder? That's absolutely the top half, no question. Top quarter? Now you've got an argument. But IMO they're going to pick a WR in the top two rounds if they can and we'll be much closer to the top at that point.

 

We need speed. We also need more in the trenches.

[BillsShredder83]

1 hour ago, qwksilver said:

Logic you make a good case and I hope you're right. It explains his down year. I'm sure the coaches understand this. A better version/use of Moss can only be a plus for 2022. 

I cant speak much to run block schemes, or to the accuracy of the OP claims. What I will say if true, is why have 2 rbs who rely on diff run schemes ESPECIALLY when pushing for RB by committee as much as we have the past 2 years? strange and if its the case, hopefully we have two backs who excel under same scheme on the roster.

[Thurman#1]

1 hour ago, Logic said:

For those that ask “what sets Moss apart from being Just a Guy?”, my answer is:

 

Agility, quickness, balance, tackle breaking ability, compact build, runs with good pad level, very good run blocker.

 

Let me repeat: I’m not saying he’ll ever be a top 10 back in this league. I’m saying that has utility on an NFL roster as an RB2 who can get you 800-1000 yards from scrimmage per season, and that’s not useless.

 

Here are some highlights from his 2020 season, which saw him post three games with more than six yards per carry:

 

 

 

Here’s an article from PFF, specifically about Moss, pointing out that 40 times are less predictive of running back success in the NFL than agility and quickness based tests like the 3-cone.

 

https://www.pff.com/news/draft-2020-nfl-draft-forget-the-40-yard-dash-time-zack-moss-excels-at-the-things-that-matter-for-a-running-back

 

 

And lastly, a reminder of one of the reasons the Bills were excited to draft Moss to begin with:

 

 

 

 

I’m just saying the guy has skill. Dynamic RB1? No. Useless bust? Absolutely not. He can be a player in this offense.

 

 

 

I don't doubt for a second he can be a good player. Hard to say whether or not he will, but it absolutely could be.

 

Like you, I think he's working like a dog this offseason. I'm sure he didn't like what happened last year. Singletary got significantly better last off-season by going to that RB coach he spent a lot of time with. I think Moss will do his version of the same thing, a serious program to better himself.

 

Your point that Kromer's system might fit him better is interesting. Seems reasonable and makes me a bit more hopeful.

 

He's more than JAG. There's a consistent trend on the net especially to say far too quickly that we have all the information we need and that we know what will happen, when generally we don't. I'm hopeful for him, though I'm sure he'd agree he's still got a lot to prove.

[Richard Noggin]

I'll commend the OP for presenting a claim that I initially laughed off. Would have replied with a smug, "Probably."

 

But upon actually reading the support for his claim, I'm actually at least considering the possibility of Moss having a chance to be more effective this season.

 

One counter is that the WIDE zone asks for RBs with more speed/burst than we've seen out of Moss to date. 

[Thurman#1]

1 hour ago, JakeFrommStateFarm said:

Moss runs a 4.70 40.

 

That is way too slow

 

 

No, the official combine time was 4.65 and he ran a slightly faster 4.62 at his pro day.

 

Ran a faster 4.52 here after his pro day was cancelled, but that's private and therefore somewhat questionable.

 

https://kslsports.com/431008/utahs-zack-moss-showcases-speed-during-private-workout-in-social-media-video/

 

There have been and still are a lot of successful backs who run around that time. No burners, of course, but successful guys.

[BringBackFlutie]

3 hours ago, Logic said:

It seems that just about everyone has written off Zack Moss as a reasonable RB2 option going forward. 

I understand that he had a down 2021, but he certainly showed promise in the 2020 season, to the point where he was viewed by many as the Bills' true RB1 heading into 2021. He is a hard running, physical back with good balance and catching ability. He was drafted in the third round just two seasons ago and Beane was very excited to get him (cue pithy Cody Ford remark here).

A few things stick out to me:

1.) In 2020, when the Bills offensive line switched to primarily zone running, Moss became very effective. Singletary, less so. In 2021, the Bills tried to do a bit of everything, rolled out the "RB by committee" approach again, realized it was a failure by mid-season, and scrapped it for a heavy reliance on Singletary and power gap runs and pin-and-pull concepts. These are Singletary's bread and butter, so whereas he had struggled in 2020, he rebounded and flourished behind the blocking scheme with which he is most effective. Moss, on the other hand, went the opposite direction. After averaging 4.3 ypc in 2020, he averaged just 3.6 in 2021.

Here's the thing with that: if I'm not mistaken, new o-line coach Aaron Kromer will most likely be bringing in the wide zone, one-cut-and-go stuff full time. As just mentioned, Moss thrived behind this running scheme in 2020. Why doesn't anyone think he can thrive again?

2.) We saw just last year, with Singletary himself, the following phenomenon: A running back comes in and thrives as a rookie, has a sophomore slump partly due to change in blocking scheme, then rebounds in year three upon returning to the blocking scheme with which he's most comfortable. This exact scenario seems to be playing out with Zack Moss right now. Nice year one, down year two behind new blocking scheme...why can't year three with a zone running scheme see the same type of bounce-back from him that Singletary enjoyed?

I'm not saying he's ever gonna be a top five back or light the league on fire, but so many Bills fans seem completely ready to ship him off for a late round pick or cut him outright, and certainly aren't counting on him to contribute meaningfully in 2022, and I can't quite figure out why that is. It's not as if he has NEVER shown that he can be effective in this league. Bring up the 2020 game highlights and you see plenty of really nice plays and both the running and passing game from Moss. Does everyone just assume he completely forgot how to play football?

If you're one of those who have given up on Zack Moss, I'm curious to know your reasoning. I'm also curious to know: if you don't believe he can rebound behind better OL personnel, with a better o-line coach and a blocking scheme better suited to his skills, WHY don't you believe it?



 

 

Yes.

[LABILLBACKER]

3 hours ago, unbillievable said:

I have a feeling that Singletary will get traded, Moss will be a healthy scratch, and a rookie plus Duke will be the backfield.

 

 

And here's your winning answer. Hall/Walker and Duke. There has been nothing remarkable about Singletary or Moss. We need running backs with the capacity to run A/B gaps and break some outside. Devin showed some late season promise but is it sustainable?

[Vickveto]

1 hour ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

I can't imagine how you feel that way. Not in the top half? With Diggs, Davis, Knox and Crowder? That's absolutely the top half, no question. Top quarter? Now you've got an argument. But IMO they're going to pick a WR in the top two rounds if they can and we'll be much closer to the top at that point.

 

We need speed. We also need more in the trenches.

You are contradicting yourself. If you are in the top half of playmaker talent with a top three quarterback you’re not even discussing receiver in the first two rounds but we are. Bringing top end WRs in for visits. There is a reason Crowder sat in the free-agent market so long and McKenzie did too…didn’t get paid much either. Gabe Davis has never won a starting job.  Elijah Moore Devonte Parker and Jaylen Waddle are all considered better wide receivers and those are the number twos just in our division. We have a top 10 tight end situation and are running back situation it’s somewhere in the 20s. 

Edited April 11, 2022 by Vickveto

[Vickveto]

24 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

Not even close to the amount of investment they’ve given the defensive line…. They need playmakers as well agreed… it’s why I’ve been preaching this draft should be offense heavy. 

I just don’t see it…We have good tackles Mitch Morses just resigned Bates resigned. I understand we need a swing tackle. But is a guard worth taking in the first two rounds? I think Edmunds replacement gets drafted in the first 2 round. Our GM has used premium picks on premium positions I just don’t see the need. Coby Ford was supposed to be a tackle. We kicked him inside we just need him to improve we used a second round pick on him. 

[GolfandBills]

I can’t really think of anything he does well.  For a so called power back he’s not a very strong runner.  He’s a below average athlete for a running back.   His vision is bad and he has average contact balance.  He’s just ok imo

[Putin]

Yes