Why arm strength matters(Mac Jones/Josh Allen comparison in playoff game by Cover 1)

[SoTier]

1 hour ago, Ayjent said:

Mac Jones is a limited QB in physical attributes, but he played pretty well for a rookie.  Thing is, I don't know how much better he can be.  I feel like he is going to be a capable starter because he is not flustered in the pocket and makes good accurate throws, but I don't really see him taking a huge step forward from his rookie year.  The Pats could have done much worse with a QB pick, and he was an improvement over Cam Newton by a mile.

 

Josh Allen and Patrick Mahomes are in their own stratosphere of talent, though.  Yes the old dogs of Brady and Rodgers are still impressive as hell, but any GM in the league would take Allen or Mahomes if they could pick any QB in the league to put on their team.  There is a tier below with Burrow, Brady, Rodgers, Russel Wilson, Lamar Jackson, and Justin Herbert.  You could throw Matt Stafford in there as well I suppose.  But then there are the rest IMO - guys who are decent, but are going to hold you back as much as they push you forward.  Some are definitely better than others, and an argument can be made for guys like Carr, Watson, Ryan, Murray, and a few others, being a notch above the pack as well, but I don't trust any of that group to be consistent enough.  Mac Jones isn't even in that group IMO.

 

Agree with both main thoughts here.

 

Jones reminds me of Brady as a first year starter in 2001.  He wasn't that impressive except that he tended to make good decisions, especially for a QB with such limited experience (the game after Bledsoe got injured was his first NFL start).  For several years after 2001, there were always debates on the old BBMB over whether Brady was a "system QB" or "a franchise QB".  I guess we all found out he was for real.  It wasn't Brady's arm strength that made him the GOAT any more than it's lack of arm strength that has sent Carson Wentz from Philly to Indy to Washington, DC.  It's a combination of traits, but more than anything, it's decision making -- knowing when and where to throw the ball.

 

Mahomes and Allen have shown they're truly special.  Mahomes has shown that since his first game in 2017.   Allen took a couple of years to develop because he was so raw when he came into the league.  I think that the most likely candidates to join them on the podium are Watson, Herbert and Burrow although it's likely that not all of them -- or possibly none of them -- actually achieve the same status. 

[Big Turk]

On 4/9/2022 at 7:38 PM, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

I’m pretty shocked with how they’re building their teams honestly…feels like they’re playing for a wildcard.  I would’ve revamped the defense rather than signing tyreek if I was Miami 

 

Allen has owned them and is practically undefendable now. Why bother? Going to hold him to 26 instead of 30+?

Edited April 11, 2022 by Big Turk

[chris heff]

When Jones was letting that ball go the receiver was open and I thought TD. When Hyde makes the interception my first thoughts were, that’s an incredible play and that ball took to long to get there. If you look at Jones’ passing charts there are not a lot of passes beyond 15 yards and most are shorter. He is better throwing to his left, does not have much of a game over the middle. Maybe he improves or maybe that’s who he is. He had a good season for a rookie, but I keep thinking he is like a first year pitcher, once everyone gets a look at him and figures out what he can and cannot do, things get rough.

[AlBUNDY4TDS]

So glad we have the QB with the gold standard set of elite tools!!

[djp14150]

On 4/9/2022 at 2:15 PM, Big Turk said:

Really good breakdown...

 

Both threw the ball from the 42 yard line on the opposite hash...

 

Mac Jones ball took 3.1 seconds to get 1 yard deep in the end zone.

 

Josh Allen's ball took 2.5 seconds to get 7 yards deep in the end zone.

 

One was an INT, the other a TD. One of these things is not like the others...

 

 

This is a BS argument.  Strongest arms don’t make a qb.

 

he underthrew his WR.  Had he threw it a split second earlier it might have been a TD pass where S would have not gotten to it. If he threw it at a slightly lower angle would have gotten there a split second sooner.

 

[CoudyBills]

41 minutes ago, djp14150 said:

This is a BS argument.  Strongest arms don’t make a qb.

 

he underthrew his WR.  Had he threw it a split second earlier it might have been a TD pass where S would have not gotten to it. If he threw it at a slightly lower angle would have gotten there a split second sooner.

 

Elite physical tools make a huge difference, period.

[atlbillsfan1975]

44 minutes ago, djp14150 said:

This is a BS argument.  Strongest arms don’t make a qb.

 

he underthrew his WR.  Had he threw it a split second earlier it might have been a TD pass where S would have not gotten to it. If he threw it at a slightly lower angle would have gotten there a split second sooner.

 

He can’t get it there throwing it at a lower angle, that’s the point. 

[Big Turk]

48 minutes ago, djp14150 said:

This is a BS argument.  Strongest arms don’t make a qb.

 

he underthrew his WR.  Had he threw it a split second earlier it might have been a TD pass where S would have not gotten to it. If he threw it at a slightly lower angle would have gotten there a split second sooner.

 

Or if he didn't have a rag arm, maybe it wouldn't have taken a half second longer to get there?

 

Dude...do you not understand how physics work? Players who can't throw the ball with enough velocity to use a lower angle have to put more air under the ball.

 

That's the entire point.

Edited April 11, 2022 by Big Turk

[RunTheBall]

HE’S GOT A RAAAAAAG AHHHHHHMMMM!

[djp14150]

1 hour ago, Big Turk said:

Or if he didn't have a rag arm, maybe it wouldn't have taken a half second longer to get there?

 

Dude...do you not understand how physics work? Players who can't throw the ball with enough velocity to use a lower angle have to put more air under the ball.

 

That's the entire point.

im a data scientist and I understand the formulas on projectile motion.

 

distance is based on velocity and throwing angle of the projectile.  Time of release also matters.

 

i can’t tell that in the replay to say what the reason was.

 

this doesn’t remotely say why Allen is better…it’s a piss poor argument that have big holes.

[Don Otreply]

13 hours ago, atlbillsfan1975 said:

I am not debating that with you but there is a certain Pats fan on here who will. 

He is a hoot isn’t he 😁👍

[Saxum]

9 minutes ago, Don Otreply said:

He is a hoot isn’t he 😁👍

 

I was not aware vultures hooted.

[The Wiz]

On 4/9/2022 at 7:51 PM, Putin said:

How delusional can one be to even entertain a thought like that ? 

At one time I thought windows ME was a good OS.  People fall on their swords where they do. 

[Big Turk]

50 minutes ago, djp14150 said:

im a data scientist and I understand the formulas on projectile motion.

 

distance is based on velocity and throwing angle of the projectile.  Time of release also matters.

 

i can’t tell that in the replay to say what the reason was.

 

this doesn’t remotely say why Allen is better…it’s a piss poor argument that have big holes.

 

Velocity is the part Jones is lacking in that equation. Don't try and overcomplicate things. The simplest answer is usually the correct one.

 

 

[Putin]

4 hours ago, djp14150 said:

This is a BS argument.  Strongest arms don’t make a qb.

 

he underthrew his WR.  Had he threw it a split second earlier it might have been a TD pass where S would have not gotten to it. If he threw it at a slightly lower angle would have gotten there a split second sooner.

 

If , if , would he , if he , had he , it might have , 

Edited April 11, 2022 by Putin

[eball]

On 4/9/2022 at 7:26 PM, FireChans said:

 

I think it’s extremely oversimplifying it by saying it’s just arm strength is the difference between the two plays. Micah’s

play was unreal. 

 

I think you’re missing the point.  If Jones gets the ball there faster, with less arc, Hyde can’t make that play.  Hence, arm strength.

 

[atlbillsfan1975]

10 hours ago, djp14150 said:

im a data scientist and I understand the formulas on projectile motion.

 

distance is based on velocity and throwing angle of the projectile.  Time of release also matters.

 

i can’t tell that in the replay to say what the reason was.

 

this doesn’t remotely say why Allen is better…it’s a piss poor argument that have big holes.

Since you are a data scientist, can you say that Jones could get the ball to that spot on the field throwing at a lower angle OR would that cause the ball to land at a different location? 

[SoTier]

11 hours ago, CoudyBills said:

Elite physical tools make a huge difference, period.

 

Physical tools don't mean much without the ability to process information quickly and make good decisions.  The history of the NFL is filled with highly drafted QBs with "elite physical tools" who crashed and burned on their inability to master the mental nuances of the pro game.  Conversely, there are QBs with lesser tools who have successful careers because their ability to make plays because they make good decisions.   Andy Dalton, Joe Flacco, Kirk Cousins, Derek Carr, and Jimmy Garappolo are all examples of not the greatest physical tools that have been successful.    If elite physical tools were so "huge", so many QBs with elite arms wouldn't fail in the NFL. 

[CoudyBills]

1 hour ago, SoTier said:

 

Physical tools don't mean much without the ability to process information quickly and make good decisions.  The history of the NFL is filled with highly drafted QBs with "elite physical tools" who crashed and burned on their inability to master the mental nuances of the pro game.  Conversely, there are QBs with lesser tools who have successful careers because their ability to make plays because they make good decisions.   Andy Dalton, Joe Flacco, Kirk Cousins, Derek Carr, and Jimmy Garappolo are all examples of not the greatest physical tools that have been successful.    If elite physical tools were so "huge", so many QBs with elite arms wouldn't fail in the NFL. 

This conversation is with regard to Mac and Josh.  

[FireChans]

3 hours ago, eball said:

 

I think you’re missing the point.  If Jones gets the ball there faster, with less arc, Hyde can’t make that play.  Hence, arm strength.

 

And if he throws it a little more outside, Hyde also can’t make that play.

 

I stand by that it’s not as simple as arm strength.