Why arm strength matters(Mac Jones/Josh Allen comparison in playoff game by Cover 1)

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

12 minutes ago, Putin said:

No need for that they’ll go toe to toe with Allen ( this time 🤔) 

I’m pretty shocked with how they’re building their teams honestly…feels like they’re playing for a wildcard.  I would’ve revamped the defense rather than signing tyreek if I was Miami 

[Putin]

Just now, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

I’m pretty shocked with how they’re building their teams honestly…feels like they’re playing for a wildcard.  I would’ve revamped the defense rather than signing tyreek if I was Miami 

The thought is we CAN NOT AND WILL NOT STOP JA17 , so let’s try and maybe 🤔 score more points 

[Logic]

The Pats fans trying to refute the video in the comments on Twitter are a hoot. Trying to claim that arm strength isn’t important, that Mac is the better QB because “his decision making is better”, people legitimately saying they’d take Mac over Josh if given the choice.

 

Like…homerism is a hell of a drug.

[Putin]

1 minute ago, Logic said:

The Pats fans trying to refute the video in the comments on Twitter are a hoot. Trying to claim that arm strength isn’t important, that Mac is the better QB because “his decision making is better”, people legitimately saying they’d take Mac over Josh if given the choice.

 

Like…homerism is a hell of a drug.

How delusional can one be to even entertain a thought like that ? 

[CincyBillsFan]

1 hour ago, FireChans said:

Jones pump faked but it didn’t fool Hyde. 
 

I think it’s extremely oversimplifying it by saying it’s just arm strength is the difference between the two plays. Micah’s

play was unreal. 

You can also fool safeties with your eyes and Allen has become quite good at that.

 

I think the guy in the video was spot on in showing how arm strength was the most important factor in those two plays.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Saxum]

4 hours ago, atlbillsfan1975 said:

@PatsFanNH will not like this blatant evidence. I’m sure he will stick to his guns that Belichick wants McCorkle over Allen. 
All kidding aside, this is exactly why guys like Jones and Fitz have the ceiling they do. They just don’t have the arm. 

 

Fitzpatrick and Jones arm are nothing alike.  The difference is Fitzpatrick is a gunslinger always attempting to make plays even when there is no need.  He can throw ball far and fast as his career has shown.  Jones is game manager.

3 hours ago, Big Turk said:

 

Literally no coach ever would want MJ10 over Allen. Suggesting otherwise is idiocy.

 

 

There are coaches who prefer "my way" then "gunslinger" which Allen is of the latter.

They cannot adapt or they will not adapt to Allen's mentality.

Those type of HCs/OCs should not be coaching in NFL.

Edited April 10, 2022 by Limeaid

[CSBill]

12 hours ago, FireChans said:

Yeah sure that would have helped. A more accurate ball would’ve helped too.

 

Josh threw a dart but it was well behind Sanders. Good thing he was open and the ball got there fast.

Hyde is also in position because of the defensive alignment. Josh was throwing against single coverage outside. Jones was not. The Pats safety was nowhere close.

Hyde made a great play but he was also helping over the top. The DB had no such help against Sanders. You can even see the safety 20 yards away.

 

 I think you missed the obvious point of the video:

• One was open and the lack of arm strength allowed the Defense to make a play on the ball -- he was wide open, but the under-throw closes his openness.
• In the other, he was open and arm strength allowed him to stay open and take advantage of the openness.

Don't over think in, on every play there are mutilple variables that could make it successful or not, on these two examples, the obvious point is that the arm strength of the QBs makes a huge difference.

[atlbillsfan1975]

13 hours ago, Big Turk said:

 

Literally no coach ever would want MJ10 over Allen. Suggesting otherwise is idiocy.

Or of the ball wasn't a Super Tecmo Bowl lollipop throw and got there a half second sooner?

I am not debating that with you but there is a certain Pats fan on here who will. 

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

14 hours ago, Big Turk said:

Mac Jones ball took 3.1 seconds to get 1 yard deep in the end zone.

 

Josh Allen's ball took 2.5 seconds to get 7 yards deep in the end zone.

what this guy fails to see in his analysis 
 

EVEN FLOATERS score points. 
 

Not every pass needs to be on a frozen rope. 
 

one of Josh’s areas of improvement was the need of touch on his throws.  
 

12 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

Here's the thing about arm strength..  it's overrated until you don't have enough

Yup

—— 

I am on no way crediting Mac for anything 

Cover1 just isn’t as smart as he thinks he is.  
 

Had he stuck around I could at least argue about his position 

 

but he ran away because Ho didn’t like people arguing his breakdowns of games or practices 

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

@Cover 1 you want to discuss this poop analogy?

 

oops poor analogy 

 

semantics matters I guess 

Edited April 11, 2022 by SlimShady'sSpaceForce

[SoTier]

The premise of this thread is silly.  Arm strength is only one factor that contributes to making a great QB just like speed is only one factor that makes a  great WR.   If arm strength was the most important thing, Jeff George would be in the HOF just as if speed was the key to making a great WR, none of the track stars drafted into the NFL over the last two decades would have crashed and burned instead of being rarities.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

13 hours ago, The Dean said:

Has someone actually argued that arm strength doesn't matter at all? Has zero impact?  I know that arm strength is only ONE factor, but of course it matters. This seems like a straw man argument to me.

Yup

 

[Ayjent]

Mac Jones is a limited QB in physical attributes, but he played pretty well for a rookie.  Thing is, I don't know how much better he can be.  I feel like he is going to be a capable starter because he is not flustered in the pocket and makes good accurate throws, but I don't really see him taking a huge step forward from his rookie year.  The Pats could have done much worse with a QB pick, and he was an improvement over Cam Newton by a mile.

 

Josh Allen and Patrick Mahomes are in their own stratosphere of talent, though.  Yes the old dogs of Brady and Rodgers are still impressive as hell, but any GM in the league would take Allen or Mahomes if they could pick any QB in the league to put on their team.  There is a tier below with Burrow, Brady, Rodgers, Russel Wilson, Lamar Jackson, and Justin Herbert.  You could throw Matt Stafford in there as well I suppose.  But then there are the rest IMO - guys who are decent, but are going to hold you back as much as they push you forward.  Some are definitely better than others, and an argument can be made for guys like Carr, Watson, Ryan, Murray, and a few others, being a notch above the pack as well, but I don't trust any of that group to be consistent enough.  Mac Jones isn't even in that group IMO.

[without a drought]

That was one of the best passes I've seen Mac throw. Not a great result for him, but nice throw. 

[JESSEFEFFER]

Come on now.  Greg is only pointing out how arm strength mattered for this one comparison,  The 3.1 vs, 2.5 seconds was a big deal in these two throws.  But, the biggest deficiency in Josh Allen's  2019 season was his inability to hit deep ball go routes.   Most were overthrown and too flat.  He was near the bottom of the league on those throws.  I thought his arm strength was more of a problem on these because he has a high variance of launch angle and velocity to put  the ball 50 yards down field while the average NFL QB has a much narrower range of options which is easier to master. Add in a number of windier home games which added an extra variable to the calculation and Josh pretty much missed on all of them until later in the season when he hit some to Knox and Brown.  In general, the Mac Jones type of throw has a greater chance to be completed, imo.

 

Here's a better example.  The number of other QBs able to make this throw is near to zero,  Go ahead  Kurt Warner, complain about his footwork.

 

Allen to Brown should have been TD

 

 

[Ethan in Cleveland]

15 hours ago, The Dean said:

Has someone actually argued that arm strength doesn't matter at all? Has zero impact?  I know that arm strength is only ONE factor, but of course it matters. This seems like a straw man argument to me.

Agree. Its only one factor. If Allen's accuracy had not improved so much his arm strength and running ability alone wpuld not have made him MVP caliber. 

He really is in a class all of his own now. Cam Newton, Roethlisberger, and Elway comparisons are interesting but in each case they are no longer on point.

Rodgers and Mahommes are only comparables at this point in terms of the total QB package and even there Allen has 2-3 x as many rush yards per season as those two.

If he stays healthy he will redefine the QB position. 

[Big Turk]

1 hour ago, Ayjent said:

Mac Jones is a limited QB in physical attributes, but he played pretty well for a rookie.  Thing is, I don't know how much better he can be.  I feel like he is going to be a capable starter because he is not flustered in the pocket and makes good accurate throws, but I don't really see him taking a huge step forward from his rookie year.  The Pats could have done much worse with a QB pick, and he was an improvement over Cam Newton by a mile.

 

Josh Allen and Patrick Mahomes are in their own stratosphere of talent, though.  Yes the old dogs of Brady and Rodgers are still impressive as hell, but any GM in the league would take Allen or Mahomes if they could pick any QB in the league to put on their team.  There is a tier below with Burrow, Brady, Rodgers, Russel Wilson, Lamar Jackson, and Justin Herbert.  You could throw Matt Stafford in there as well I suppose.  But then there are the rest IMO - guys who are decent, but are going to hold you back as much as they push you forward.  Some are definitely better than others, and an argument can be made for guys like Carr, Watson, Ryan, Murray, and a few others, being a notch above the pack as well, but I don't trust any of that group to be consistent enough.  Mac Jones isn't even in that group IMO.

 

Mac Jones is the high floor, lower ceiling type of game manager QB. Smart player that is pro ready early but has very limited upside.

11 hours ago, Limeaid said:

 

Fitzpatrick and Jones arm are nothing alike.  The difference is Fitzpatrick is a gunslinger always attempting to make plays even when there is no need.  He can throw ball far and fast as his career has shown.  Jones is game manager.

 

There are coaches who prefer "my way" then "gunslinger" which Allen is of the latter.

They cannot adapt or they will not adapt to Allen's mentality.

Those type of HCs/OCs should not be coaching in NFL.

 

Allen has become less gunslinger and more make the smart play, which is why he is so dangerous because now no matter what you try and do on a play, you lose on defense. He will take the check down, he will beat you deep, he will hit the seam routes, he will scramble when everything is covered, he will escape and make a play even when you have the perfect play all to stop him from running and have everything covered.

 

Allen is literally unstoppable, the best you can hope for is to limit the damage.

[BuffaloBill]

Simple idea Allen’s ball goes further faster. 
 

while this is all good and I truly mean that it does not simply translate to Lombardi trophies. Josh has two more critical strengths:

 

1 - competitiveness that is second to none

 

2 - a burning desire to improve his game

His arm talent without those two factors probably leaves him in the middle of the NFL QB herd. 

[aceman_16]

14 hours ago, FireChans said:

Jones pump faked but it didn’t fool Hyde. 
 

I think it’s extremely oversimplifying it by saying it’s just arm strength is the difference between the two plays. Micah’s

play was unreal. 

I agree to some degree. They were different defensive alignments....however, subract over a second of time on Jones' throw and it is most likely a TD. I think THAT is the main point.

[Ethan in Cleveland]

1 hour ago, Ayjent said:

Mac Jones is a limited QB in physical attributes, but he played pretty well for a rookie.  Thing is, I don't know how much better he can be.  I feel like he is going to be a capable starter because he is not flustered in the pocket and makes good accurate throws, but I don't really see him taking a huge step forward from his rookie year.  The Pats could have done much worse with a QB pick, and he was an improvement over Cam Newton by a mile.

 

Josh Allen and Patrick Mahomes are in their own stratosphere of talent, though.  Yes the old dogs of Brady and Rodgers are still impressive as hell, but any GM in the league would take Allen or Mahomes if they could pick any QB in the league to put on their team.  There is a tier below with Burrow, Brady, Rodgers, Russel Wilson, Lamar Jackson, and Justin Herbert.  You could throw Matt Stafford in there as well I suppose.  But then there are the rest IMO - guys who are decent, but are going to hold you back as much as they push you forward.  Some are definitely better than others, and an argument can be made for guys like Carr, Watson, Ryan, Murray, and a few others, being a notch above the pack as well, but I don't trust any of that group to be consistent enough.  Mac Jones isn't even in that group IMO.

Herbert may already be in the discussion with Allen and Mahomes and certainly will be if he has another year like the last two and a playoff win or two.