Do you take a corner in the first?

[Alphadawg7]

44 minutes ago, whorlnut said:

So you can only fill a need with a first round pick?  Sorry. Not buying it. If there isn’t a corner worth a first round pick, do you still take one?

I really can’t stand this argument. Crowder and Howard are on cheap one year deals. There is NOTHING there that should preclude them from taking a WR if there is one they like. 
 

I don’t agree with you or anyone on corner in round 1. You can’t reach for need and I think Beane likes Jackson a lot. We can get a pretty good corner in the mid rounds. 

 

Who said anything about reaching?  Why do people just jump to "reaching" when someone suggests it would be good to take a CB in the first round?  Literally no one has said that what so ever, nor does anyone expect Beane to reach.  This thread is not about should we "reach" its about whether we should take a CB if the right one is there.  

 

And you cant stand the argument that CB is a bigger need than WR?  Really?  No disrespect, but how does that make any sense today with the roster the way it is?

 

Diggs, Davis, and McKenzie here 2 or more years still.  Crowder locking down a spot this year too.  But at CB we don't have a single starter...just last years backup being forced to start because Levi left.  And Tre, while an all pro player, is a question mark on when he will be back and how he will play once back.  Plus we have no backups behind them either.  

 

But you hate this argument that CB is a bigger need?  I really dont get that, I mean we averaged 41.5 points in the playoffs and lost on defense.  

 

I mean look what we are facing this year...just in our division, who is covering Hill and Waddle?  Not mention the gauntlet that is the AFC West, Titans Duo of Woods and AJ Brown (another nemesis of ours), Bengals gauntlet of receivers, etc.  

 

So while no one expects Beane to reach, taking a CB in the first absolutely makes sense if there is one there they feel is the right guy.  

[whorlnut]

1 minute ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Who said anything about reaching?  Why do people just jump to "reaching" when someone suggests it would be good to take a CB in the first round?  Literally no one has said that what so ever, nor does anyone expect Beane to reach.  This thread is not about should we "reach" its about whether we should take a CB if the right one is there.  

 

And you cant stand the argument that CB is a bigger need than WR?  Really?  No disrespect, but how does that make any sense today with the roster the way it is?

 

Diggs, Davis, and McKenzie here 2 or more years still.  Crowder locking down a spot this year too.  But at CB we don't have a single starter...just last years backup being forced to start because Levi left.  And Tre, while an all pro player, is a question mark on when he will be back and how he will play once back.  Plus we have no backups behind them either.  

 

But you hate this argument that CB is a bigger need?  I really dont get that, I mean we averaged 41.5 points in the playoffs and lost on defense.  

 

I mean look what we are facing this year...just in our division, who is covering Hill and Waddle?  Not mention the gauntlet that is the AFC West, Titans Duo of Woods and AJ Brown (another nemesis of ours), Bengals gauntlet of receivers, etc.  

 

So while no one expects Beane to reach, taking a CB in the first absolutely makes sense if there is one there they feel is the right guy.  

My argument is about taking a corner in 1. There are other rounds to get a CB2. Do you really think anyone can guard both Hill and Waddle?  If so, good for you. 
 

The Chiefs have been daring teams to keep up with them on offense for years and it’s worked for them with just a serviceable defense. We have a top 5 unit right now, even if we

make no more moves. 
 

We lost those 13 seconds due to absolutely atrocious coaching decisions. That’s a fact. They literally didn’t do anything right in that time. And you also conveniently forget about the long stretch in the regular season where our offense fell flat on its face. We had no protection, Singletary was (and still is) slow, and Allen was basically doing everything on his own. The offense cost us a higher seed in the playoffs by putting up 6 points against the Jags. 
 

Believe what you wanna believe…I’ll do the same. 

[BADOLBILZ]

4 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

I literally didn't say any of those things.  

 

Josh is setup to succeed, they improved the OL, brought in a dangerous slot weapon in Crowder, extended Diggs, added OJ Howard.  I mean you are delusional if you don't think the offense has been upgraded this year already, an offense that averaged 41.5 points in the playoffs and still got bounced.  

 

And we upgraded our pass rush in Miller, but we are MISSING our TWO starting corners from last year.  We have no starters on our roster ready for week 1.  We have a BACKUP CB we HOPE can be relied upon to start even though he was absued by the Chiefs in the playoffs last year.  We have an all pro recovering from a bad injury that may not have him ready to start the season, and even if he is, could take part of or even all of the season to rebound back to his previous form.  

 

Again, you absolutely incorrect that CB isn't a bigger need than something on offense.  We will absolutely draft some offense, and we could round 1.  Beane will stay true to his BPA I expect, so if there is not a corner they covet at 25, he wont reach and he will take another position.  But, to say CB is not the biggest need is beyond ridiculous.  

 

 

What did they do to improve the personnel on their OL that allowed 125 combined pressures/sacks? 

 

Saffold is a step back in pass protection and can't play tackle like Williams in the event of Brown being sidelined with back issues again.

 

They simply saved some money swapping Williams out for Saffold......but took on more age and injury risk in Saffold.

 

There is a better chance that the much younger and better player in Tre White comes back and plays a full slate of games at high quality than there is that Saffold plays at a high level for 17+playoffs.

 

 Saffold is a guy you can count on as a half season starter, IMO.  This years version Emmanuel Sanders.........but with the terrible Cody Ford as his backup not a promising young vet like Gabe Davis.

 

And they are missing one starting CB.......Levi Wallace.   Dane Jackson was the starter during the best stretch of the Bills season.......December and January.

 

He is as good of a starting CB in this system as Ryan Bates is a guard.......he literally started more games than Bates yet you say that Josh Allen is setup to succeed with Bates and Jackson doesn't even count as a starter?

 

Dane Jackson put up 41 tackles and his 70 passer rating allowed was lower than two of Tre White's season ratings in his career.    He can start and play well in the Bills system.

 

I get the concern but you are clearly in panic mode about something they've always done well enough to rank among the best in the league........pass defense...........and whistling past the graveyard that is the OL as a whole and their depth at WR...........positions where weakness has undermined them on a broad scale.......ENTIRE SEASONS.........not just one game each year.   

[Alphadawg7]

3 hours ago, whorlnut said:

My argument is about taking a corner in 1. There are other rounds to get a CB2. Do you really think anyone can guard both Hill and Waddle?  If so, good for you. 
 

The Chiefs have been daring teams to keep up with them on offense for years and it’s worked for them with just a serviceable defense. We have a top 5 unit right now, even if we

make no more moves. 
 

We lost those 13 seconds due to absolutely atrocious coaching decisions. That’s a fact. They literally didn’t do anything right in that time. And you also conveniently forget about the long stretch in the regular season where our offense fell flat on its face. We had no protection, Singletary was (and still is) slow, and Allen was basically doing everything on his own. The offense cost us a higher seed in the playoffs by putting up 6 points against the Jags. 
 

Believe what you wanna believe…I’ll do the same. 

What about the 64 yard TD to Hill before that that out us behind again with just over a minute left to play needing a TD?  Or the drive in OT?  We gave up 42 points and 17 points in under 3 minutes to end game.  We scored 36 points…who was worse?  Clearly the defense again
 

Also, the majority of the best WRs in football were not taken in the first round.  Hill, Adam’s, Diggs, Kupp (arguably 4 of the top 5 playing), Deebo, Metcalf, AJ Brown we’re all taken in other rounds.  Not to mention top end WRs like Keenan Allen, McLaurin and so many more.  This notion we need a first round WR (when we have one the best WR corps in the league) is really not based on historical data.  
 

And we all know our top flight D last year statistically was padded through and easy schedule.  They didn’t always look so top flight against the better offenses we faced.  And now we don’t have our two starting corners from that defense either to start the year potentially.

Edited April 9, 2022 by Alphadawg7

[Rock-A-Bye Beasley]

I don’t take anyone. But if I did I wouldn’t pigeon hole myself to one position no matter the need. 

[PetermansRedemption]

Yes

[whorlnut]

12 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

What about the 64 yard TD to Hill before that that out us behind again with just over a minute left to play needing a TD?  Or the drive in OT?  We gave up 42 points and 17 points in under 3 minutes to end game.  We scored 36 points…who was worse?  Clearly the defense again
 

Also, the majority of the best WRs in football were not taken in the first round.  Hill, Adam’s, Diggs, Kupp (arguably 4 of the top 5 playing), Deebo, Metcalf, AJ Brown we’re all taken in other rounds.  Not to mention top end WRs like Keenan Allen, McLaurin and so many more.  This notion we need a first round WR (when we have one the best WR corps in the league) is really not based on historical data.  
 

And we all know our top flight D last year statistically was padded through and easy schedule.  They didn’t always look so top flight against the better offenses we faced.  And now we don’t have our two starting corners from that defense either to start the year potentially.

I’m not arguing with you or anyone. Nothing will change my mind. You can continue to think a “stud” corner will take plays like that away. That’s your opinion. Whatever. 
 

The bottom like is “alpha” that no defense looks good against top offenses these days. Did you see Ramsey look lost in the super bowl against stud receivers?  

Edited April 9, 2022 by whorlnut

[Buffalo Ballin]

CB. Corner. Defense.

 

Remember that Stefon Diggs came in the 5th round.

Gabriel Davis was in the 4th round.

 

I do not worry about WR. There are plenty of them.

[BADOLBILZ]

5 minutes ago, Buffalo Ballin said:

CB. Corner. Defense.

 

Remember that Stefon Diggs came in the 5th round.

Gabriel Davis was in the 4th round.

 

I do not worry about WR. There are plenty of them.

 

Offensive Line.  Wide Receiver.  Offense.

 

Remember that.....the Bills had the #1 ranked pass defense in 2021 despite being only 10th in sacks.

 

Levi Wallace came undrafted.

Dane Jackson came 6th round.

Taron Johnson was in the 4th round.

Jordan Poyer 7th round.

Micah Hyde 5th round.

 

 

Maybe you shouldn't worry about the secondary.......there are plenty of them..........if where they were drafted is your rationale.

[Alphadawg7]

55 minutes ago, whorlnut said:

I’m not arguing with you or anyone. Nothing will change my mind. You can continue to think a “stud” corner will take plays like that away. That’s your opinion. Whatever. 
 

The bottom like is “alpha” that no defense looks good against top offenses these days. Did you see Ramsey look lost in the super bowl against stud receivers?  

First off, no one’s arguing, we are simply discussing something.  
 

Why were the Bengals in the Super Bowl?  Because they shut down the Chiefs offense in the 2nd half.  
 

Rams defense came up big to end the SB too, and coverage took the receivers away so they could get the big sacks.

 

Niners shut down Dallas and Green Bay’s offense too and almost made the SB with Jimmy G as their QB for second time in 3 years, and might have made it had Tarrt not dropped that gimme Int in the 4th.  
 

Chiefs got blown up by Bucs defense in the previous SB.  
 

Vaunted Rams offense was held to 3 points in the SB against the Pats.  
 

Highest scoring offense in NFL history was blown out 43-8 in the Broncos vs Seahawks SB.  
 

Previous highest scoring offense in NFL history went undefeated and lost scoring in the teens in the Pats vs Giants SB.  
 

Greatest show on turf had their offense slowed down and lost to the Pats in the SB.

 

I mean I could keep going with endless of examples that factually refute this notion you can’t slow down the top offenses.  
 

We averaged 41.5 points per game in the playoffs this year.  We were sent home because we gave up 42 points in the last game including 17 points in less than 3 minutes.  
 

And you don’t think having Tre White against the Chiefs would have made a difference in that game?  Really?  

Edited April 9, 2022 by Alphadawg7

[BADOLBILZ]

3 hours ago, whorlnut said:

My argument is about taking a corner in 1. There are other rounds to get a CB2. Do you really think anyone can guard both Hill and Waddle?  If so, good for you. 
 

 

 

Yes he and others literally expect rookie corners who are posting high 4.3's-low 4.5's out of pads to come in and shut down the probably fastest receiver......if not player.........in NFL history.

 

It's not going to happen.........and the Bills aren't about to move out of zone coverage and into man to find that out.

 

That being the case..........you don't NEED a first round cover corner talent.  

 

The Bills are still going to try to get QB's to make lot's of small plays to move the ball and hope to cause mistakes with their pass rush.......or wait for teams to simply make execution errors..........that is the style of defense.

 

[Alphadawg7]

2 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

What did they do to improve the personnel on their OL that allowed 125 combined pressures/sacks? 

 

Saffold is a step back in pass protection and can't play tackle like Williams in the event of Brown being sidelined with back issues again.

 

They simply saved some money swapping Williams out for Saffold......but took on more age and injury risk in Saffold.

 

There is a better chance that the much younger and better player in Tre White comes back and plays a full slate of games at high quality than there is that Saffold plays at a high level for 17+playoffs.

 

 Saffold is a guy you can count on as a half season starter, IMO.  This years version Emmanuel Sanders.........but with the terrible Cody Ford as his backup not a promising young vet like Gabe Davis.

 

And they are missing one starting CB.......Levi Wallace.   Dane Jackson was the starter during the best stretch of the Bills season.......December and January.

 

He is as good of a starting CB in this system as Ryan Bates is a guard.......he literally started more games than Bates yet you say that Josh Allen is setup to succeed with Bates and Jackson doesn't even count as a starter?

 

Dane Jackson put up 41 tackles and his 70 passer rating allowed was lower than two of Tre White's season ratings in his career.    He can start and play well in the Bills system.

 

I get the concern but you are clearly in panic mode about something they've always done well enough to rank among the best in the league........pass defense...........and whistling past the graveyard that is the OL as a whole and their depth at WR...........positions where weakness has undermined them on a broad scale.......ENTIRE SEASONS.........not just one game each year.   

Yet our vaunted passing defense got abused 2 years in a row in the post season to send us home.  Meanwhile our offense scored 41.5 points per game.  But keep telling me how the offense is the problem 🙄

[Alphadawg7]

16 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Yes he and others literally expect rookie corners who are posting high 4.3's-low 4.5's out of pads to come in and shut down the probably fastest receiver......if not player.........in NFL history.

 

It's not going to happen.........and the Bills aren't about to move out of zone coverage and into man to find that out.

 

That being the case..........you don't NEED a first round cover corner talent.  

 

The Bills are still going to try to get QB's to make lot's of small plays to move the ball and hope to cause mistakes with their pass rush.......or wait for teams to simply make execution errors..........that is the style of defense.

 

Literally nobody has said any of what you just said everyone’s saying.  Lmao

[BADOLBILZ]

18 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Yet our vaunted passing defense got abused 2 years in a row in the post season to send us home.  Meanwhile our offense scored 41.5 points per game.  But keep telling me how the offense is the problem 🙄

 

You simply don't care about protecting and preserving the franchise QB............clearly not the top priority to you.

 

The Bills offense lost 3 conference games in a 5 game stretch and scored less than 20 in all of them in October and November...........prior to turning Josh Allen into a battering ram to combat their league worst kinda' pass blocking OL.

 

He can't be expected to run 11, 12, 15 times per game again.........that number needs to be more like 2-5 times........MAX. 

 

Otherwise the franchise QB is going to end up like Cam Newton.........a shelf life like the Seattle Legion of Boom defense instead of 20 years like modern franchise QB's.

 

The Josh Allen is "set up to succeed"nonsense is 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 9, 2022 by BADOLBILZ

[BADOLBILZ]

6 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Literally nobody has said any of what you just said everyone’s saying.  Lmao

 

 

Only because you know it's too ridiculous to post.  

 

Instead you keep VERY VAGUE how this plan is going to alter the outcomes of the Bills defense against fast AFC offenses.

 

Basically it's a world of make believe where throwing the highest possible draft picks at a position automatically makes it better..

 

Whether it represents value or makes sense to invest that much into this specific scheme or not..........and ignoring issues that much more directly affect the health and productivity of the most important player on the team.........that QB.

[Buffalo Ballin]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Offensive Line.  Wide Receiver.  Offense.

 

Remember that.....the Bills had the #1 ranked pass defense in 2021 despite being only 10th in sacks.

 

Levi Wallace came undrafted.

Dane Jackson came 6th round.

Taron Johnson was in the 4th round.

Jordan Poyer 7th round.

Micah Hyde 5th round.

 

 

Maybe you shouldn't worry about the secondary.......there are plenty of them..........if where they were drafted is your rationale.

 13 seconds, remember? So much for our number one defense.

Relax. As long as we have Josh Allen, Stefon Diggs, Gabriel Davis, and Knox healthy, we're ok. We have no probs getting first downs. A good defense is incredibly difficult to put together AND to keep together long term.

 

A WR will be drafted LATER in the draft.

Edited April 9, 2022 by Buffalo Ballin

[whorlnut]

1 hour ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Yet our vaunted passing defense got abused 2 years in a row in the post season to send us home.  Meanwhile our offense scored 41.5 points per game.  But keep telling me how the offense is the problem 🙄

Never said the offense was a problem. I said we need to keep adding to the offense. It’s foolish to think a first round corner will be the last missing piece that will make a number one defense unstoppable. 🙄

[Hapless Bills Fan]

38 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

He can't be expected to run 11, 12, 15 times per game again.........that number needs to be more like 2-5 times........MAX.

 

I don't think you're ever going to limit Josh to 2-5 times per game.  That's just not how he's wired.

 

Career, he's 6.9 attempts per game with a low of 6.4 (2020) and a high of 7.4

 

 

[whorlnut]

50 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

You simply don't care about protecting and preserving the franchise QB............clearly not the top priority to you.

 

The Bills offense lost 3 conference games in a 5 game stretch and scored less than 20 in all of them in October and November...........prior to turning Josh Allen into a battering ram to combat their league worst kinda' pass blocking OL.

 

He can't be expected to run 11, 12, 15 times per game again.........that number needs to be more like 2-5 times........MAX. 

 

Otherwise the franchise QB is going to end up like Cam Newton.........a shelf life like the Seattle Legion of Boom defense instead of 20 years like modern franchise QB's.

 

The Josh Allen is "set up to succeed"nonsense is 

 

 

 

 

Exactly. It’s completely laughable to me that ANYONE thinks a first round corner is more important than helping the best player in the game. I can’t take trying to reason with these people anymore. 

[whorlnut]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Offensive Line.  Wide Receiver.  Offense.

 

Remember that.....the Bills had the #1 ranked pass defense in 2021 despite being only 10th in sacks.

 

Levi Wallace came undrafted.

Dane Jackson came 6th round.

Taron Johnson was in the 4th round.

Jordan Poyer 7th round.

Micah Hyde 5th round.

 

 

Maybe you shouldn't worry about the secondary.......there are plenty of them..........if where they were drafted is your rationale.

Exactly. Literally EVER single argument the cornerback crew brings up can be turned right around and thrown directly in their faces. It’s kinda funny…