Jordan Poyer changes agents

[YoloinOhio]

[aristocrat]

Alright we can all relax until the draft. Beane pulling cap space out of his ass now lol

[Paul Costa]

14 hours ago, Dopey said:

 

I can only dream about Hamilton, but I wouldn't be mad if Daxton Hill or Cline were drafted in the 2nd round. What we do at safety in the draft will tell us a lot about coach's feelings on our previous choices. Are they confident one of them can replace our vet studs?

Neither will be there at 57. Best case would be a move back get additional picks and draft them in low 30’s. I’d take hill @25 in a heartbeat. He may go way sooner too.

[SCBills]

12 hours ago, MAJBobby said:

If Johnson or Hamlin can play without dropoff or Poyer get more inline essentially getting a paycut. That is a fine contract. I can handle Poyer extended shorter term and under 9M AAV 

There may be a drop off, and that’s ok…

 

Were talking about Safeties here.  We can’t pay everyone.  
 

Did our two safeties help us against KC when it mattered?  Or against any other top notch offense… Indy & Ten come to mind…

 

We aren’t going to have All-Pros at every position.   We also can’t pay every position. 
 

We’d have zero problem extending Poyer and Edmunds, if we want to, had we not signed Von Miller.   But Von Miller on a defense against KC in the Playoffs is a huge net positive for this unit even if you remove Poyer & Edmunds from the roster. 
 

I really like Poyer as a person, a Bill, and a player… but I’d rather use his money elsewhere.  Beane said we need to get faster in the Secondary… so far all we’ve done is let Levi walk.   As good as Hyde & Poyer are, they aren’t burners either. 
 

We vastly overrate some of these guys because our defense is built to suffocate middling QB’s/mediocre offenses.  Sorry, but it’s true.  
 

Investing in a guy like Von was a move to change that… and like other defenses who have game changers on it… you have to rely on cheap talent at other positions.  
 

 

Edited April 9, 2022 by SCBills

[letsgoteam]

10 minutes ago, SCBills said:

There may be a drop off, and that’s ok…

 

Were talking about Safeties here.  We can’t pay everyone.  
 

Did our two safeties help us against KC when it mattered?  Or against any other top notch offense… Indy & Ten come to mind…

 

We aren’t going to have All-Pros at every position.   We also can’t pay every position. 
 

We’d have zero problem extending Poyer and Edmunds, if we want to, had we not signed Von Miller.   But Von Miller on a defense against KC in the Playoffs is a huge net positive for this unit even if you remove Poyer & Edmunds from the roster. 
 

I really like Poyer as a person, a Bill, and a player… but I’d rather use his money elsewhere.  Beane said we need to get faster in the Secondary… so far all we’ve done is let Levi walk.   As good as Hyde & Poyer are, they aren’t burners either. 
 

We vastly overrate some of these guys because our defense is built to suffocate middling QB’s/mediocre offenses.  Sorry, but it’s true.  
 

Investing in a guy like Von was a move to change that… and like other defenses who have game changers on it… you have to rely on cheap talent at other positions.  
 

 

I don't hate that theory. It's smart/makes sense in a way because the team will face alot of those types of teams each year. Rack up those wins, go 50/50 on other games, you are probably in the playoffs each year.

 

I will also add several times when Marlowe had to start/go in at one of the the safetys that the defense still played well in those games (if I recall correctly)

[Alphadawg7]

15 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

No, you’re pretty much right.  The fact that Poyer and Hyde can interchange safety roles is one of their features

 

 

I mean, that’s a fairly safe bet considering we’ve drafted a safety 2 of the last 3 years, with a CB sandwiched between

The question is what round?

 

I think there is real interest in moving up for Kyle if he slips outside the top 10, especially if he slips in to the teens.  And of course there is talk he might slip to double digits, even the teens.  Personally, I am still skeptical he does slip that far, but if he did then I can see Beane trying to find a trade partner for the right trade to go get him.  

[SCBills]

2 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

I think there is real interest in moving up for Kyle if he slips outside the top 10, especially if he slips in to the teens.  And of course there is talk he might slip to double digits, even the teens.  Personally, I am still skeptical he does slip that far, but if he did then I can see Beane trying to find a trade partner for the right trade to go get him.  

Im genuinely curious what people view his impact on the defense, and further, the team would be? 
 

We’d likely be given up another premium pick, at least, to move up and then how much better are we with Kyle Hamilton on the roster - especially given that this is yet another pick not going to protect Josh or give him weapons… and we’d likely be losing other picks that could be used to do so.  
 

If he’s generational and directly helps us against the other contending offenses, I’m open to it… but Josh is the team.  We took off last year when he went god-mode… We can’t allow him to do that for 17 games.  Playoffs all bets are off, but I’m looking at this one year deal laden offense and wondering how people would be ok trading away even more ammo that won’t go to help the guy leading our entire franchise SB hopes for the next decade. 

[Alphadawg7]

12 minutes ago, SCBills said:

Im genuinely curious what people view his impact on the defense, and further, the team would be? 
 

We’d likely be given up another premium pick, at least, to move up and then how much better are we with Kyle Hamilton on the roster - especially given that this is yet another pick not going to protect Josh or give him weapons… and we’d likely be losing other picks that could be used to do so.  
 

If he’s generational and directly helps us against the other contending offenses, I’m open to it… but Josh is the team.  We took off last year when he went god-mode… We can’t allow him to do that for 17 games.  Playoffs all bets are off, but I’m looking at this one year deal laden offense and wondering how people would be ok trading away even more ammo that won’t go to help the guy leading our entire franchise SB hopes for the next decade. 

 

I mean I assume their interest in Hamilton would be to eventually replace Poyer either this year (via trade) or next when he is a FA.  I am not saying we will or should do this, just commenting on some of the stuff floating around.

 

But, then again, its impossible to trust any talk at this stage, because even if true could change many times before draft night.  But they have met with Kyle and some rumblings we might be looking to move up too.  

 

As far as this year goes, I mean I think we are a better team with the duo of Poyer and Hyde just off how long they have been together and how well they play off each other.  But with Poyer on the last year of his deal and all the money being spent on the roster tying up cap space, I can see why they might have interest in finding a younger and cheaper option moving forward.  Especially with so many other key players deals coming due soon like Edmunds, Oliver, Knox, Devin, Davis, etc.  And if they feel Hamilton is a generational talent they can snag for the future, thats something I can see Beane making a move for.  

[MrEpsYtown]

Remember that when it came to the safety position, Hyde and Poyer were both super under the radar. 
 

Poyer was a Eagles 7th round pick, a slow corner turned safety by the Browns coming off a really bad injury. 
 

Hyde was a 5th round slow corner who essentially played nickel for Green Bay and we converted him to full time safety. 
 

So when it comes to the safety position I will trust the process and I don’t think their next safety has to be of the high profile variety. 

[GunnerBill]

5 minutes ago, MrEpsYtown said:

Remember that when it came to the safety position, Hyde and Poyer were both super under the radar. 
 

Poyer was a Eagles 7th round pick, a slow corner turned safety by the Browns coming off a really bad injury. 
 

Hyde was a 5th round slow corner who essentially played nickel for Green Bay and we converted him to full time safety. 
 

So when it comes to the safety position I will trust the process and I don’t think their next safety has to be of the high profile variety. 

 

Hyde was criminally underrated and badly used in Green Bay. His versatility was used against him and he was asked to play wherever they had injuries. His final year there he started games at outside corner, nickel and safety and he never nailed a spot as a result. I said it when he was a Packer but they massively misused him and because he was a team first guy he just did it. Poyer on the other hand I had barely heard of. 

 

While I agree they demonstrate that the Bills CAN find safeties without spending premium picks Leroi confirmed on here two years ago (and I think Kirby corroborated on the basis of his info) that if Kyle Dugger reached the pick where we took AJE he was going to be the pick. So they have thought about using high picks on the position previously. 

[MAJBobby]

7 hours ago, SCBills said:

There may be a drop off, and that’s ok…

 

Were talking about Safeties here.  We can’t pay everyone.  
 

Did our two safeties help us against KC when it mattered?  Or against any other top notch offense… Indy & Ten come to mind…

 

We aren’t going to have All-Pros at every position.   We also can’t pay every position. 
 

We’d have zero problem extending Poyer and Edmunds, if we want to, had we not signed Von Miller.   But Von Miller on a defense against KC in the Playoffs is a huge net positive for this unit even if you remove Poyer & Edmunds from the roster. 
 

I really like Poyer as a person, a Bill, and a player… but I’d rather use his money elsewhere.  Beane said we need to get faster in the Secondary… so far all we’ve done is let Levi walk.   As good as Hyde & Poyer are, they aren’t burners either. 
 

We vastly overrate some of these guys because our defense is built to suffocate middling QB’s/mediocre offenses.  Sorry, but it’s true.  
 

Investing in a guy like Von was a move to change that… and like other defenses who have game changers on it… you have to rely on cheap talent at other positions.  
 

 

Ooo I am with you. I wouldn’t even entertain an extension on Poyer if I was GM. But talking myself into on I will be OK with one in the 8-9M AAV with easy outs every year. 

[MrEpsYtown]

13 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Hyde was criminally underrated and badly used in Green Bay. His versatility was used against him and he was asked to play wherever they had injuries. His final year there he started games at outside corner, nickel and safety and he never nailed a spot as a result. I said it when he was a Packer but they massively misused him and because he was a team first guy he just did it. Poyer on the other hand I had barely heard of. 

 

While I agree they demonstrate that the Bills CAN find safeties without spending premium picks Leroi confirmed on here two years ago (and I think Kirby corroborated on the basis of his info) that if Kyle Dugger reached the pick where we took AJE he was going to be the pick. So they have thought about using high picks on the position previously. 

Yep great points. I do think their next safety could come from the corner position, but I could see why they are interested in this class of safeties. 
 

I knew Poyer because he played in the Senior Bowl and Charles Davis loved him and raved about him. And he was #1 on Mel’s best available for like 3 rounds. 

[BADOLBILZ]

40 minutes ago, MrEpsYtown said:

Remember that when it came to the safety position, Hyde and Poyer were both super under the radar. 
 

Poyer was a Eagles 7th round pick, a slow corner turned safety by the Browns coming off a really bad injury. 
 

Hyde was a 5th round slow corner who essentially played nickel for Green Bay and we converted him to full time safety. 
 

So when it comes to the safety position I will trust the process and I don’t think their next safety has to be of the high profile variety. 

 

 

They've had success with later picks at CB as well........Taron Johnson (4th) Dane Jackson (6th) and Levi Wallace (UDFA).

 

People downplay the significance of that.........but it's not like they've used a lot of picks.........the hit rate has been extraordinary..........which either reflects unbelievable evaluating talent or just maybe that the system and coaching makes the player in their secondary.

 

[TheyCallMeAndy]

I think there’s a shot Tre White could switch to safety some point in the near future, ACL is a brutal injury for a CB. 

[Sierra Foothills]

15 hours ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

So is there anything to back this up or just your feeling?

 

The closest thing to that I have seen quantified - would be Vegas odds with a player injured or out for the season.

 

In an individual game - a safety missing the game would not really move the line at all.  Other than QB and maybe a real special OT or DE - I am not sure any other position missing the season shifts a teams W/L total by a game.  
 

I personally think if Poyer was moved and replaced by Johnson and Hamlin would be less than 1 point per game for the player - maybe 14 points on the season. It could result in an additional loss, but I doubt it would dent the overall win total Vegas puts out.  It is just not an impact position.  
 

I like Poyer and have no issues extending him for the right deal - if it saves us money this year and next, but I also do not think that trading him and getting something or letting him play out the contract is bad.  I like what I have seen out of Hamlin and Johnson and wouldn’t mind seeing more, but with the task at hand - my preference is for Poyer and his family to shut up and win.

 

 

 

If I had something to back it up (like access to Poyer's WAR for instance... but I don't pay for that sort of stuff) I would have mentioned it.

 

As it is we're beginning to split hairs here. You theorize 14 points over the course of a season? A possible loss? Fair enough.

 

That is exactly the sort of calculus the Bills have to do here. Their valuation should be based on WAR and also the possibility that something like losing home field advantage could happen and what the worst-case scenario of that could be. 

 

 

 

9 hours ago, SCBills said:

There may be a drop off, and that’s ok…

 

Were talking about Safeties here.  We can’t pay everyone.  
 

Did our two safeties help us against KC when it mattered?  Or against any other top notch offense… Indy & Ten come to mind…

 

We aren’t going to have All-Pros at every position.   We also can’t pay every position. 
 

We’d have zero problem extending Poyer and Edmunds, if we want to, had we not signed Von Miller.   But Von Miller on a defense against KC in the Playoffs is a huge net positive for this unit even if you remove Poyer & Edmunds from the roster. 
 

I really like Poyer as a person, a Bill, and a player… but I’d rather use his money elsewhere.  Beane said we need to get faster in the Secondary… so far all we’ve done is let Levi walk.   As good as Hyde & Poyer are, they aren’t burners either. 
 

We vastly overrate some of these guys because our defense is built to suffocate middling QB’s/mediocre offenses.  Sorry, but it’s true.  
 

Investing in a guy like Von was a move to change that… and like other defenses who have game changers on it… you have to rely on cheap talent at other positions.  
 

 

 

As discussed above, the possible drop-off may or may not be "ok."

 

Lots of people on our board are more than happy to take that risk in order to save Pegula from spending more of his money.

 

As you say, if the Bills can spend that money elsewhere and it has a better overall impact than spending that money on Poyer, then it's worth it.

 

However if people want to save the money just to have it handy for "someone else later," that's more questionable because in that scenario you're not using the money to improve the team.

 

And it's important to keep in mind that this is supposed to be a Super Bowl or bust season.

[GunnerBill]

4 hours ago, ScottLaw said:

If someone like Jameson Williams or Olave are available at 25 and the Bills pass on them for a safety I’ll be shaking my head in disappointment. 

 

I don't think safety will be in play at #25. But based on their visits I don't think it is totally out of the question at #57.

[Rochesterfan]

8 hours ago, Sierra Foothills said:

 

If I had something to back it up (like access to Poyer's WAR for instance... but I don't pay for that sort of stuff) I would have mentioned it.

 

As it is we're beginning to split hairs here. You theorize 14 points over the course of a season? A possible loss? Fair enough.

 

That is exactly the sort of calculus the Bills have to do here. Their valuation should be based on WAR and also the possibility that something like losing home field advantage could happen and what the worst-case scenario of that could be. 

 

 

 

 

As discussed above, the possible drop-off may or may not be "ok."

 

Lots of people on our board are more than happy to take that risk in order to save Pegula from spending more of his money.

 

As you say, if the Bills can spend that money elsewhere and it has a better overall impact than spending that money on Poyer, then it's worth it.

 

However if people want to save the money just to have it handy for "someone else later," that's more questionable because in that scenario you're not using the money to improve the team.

 

And it's important to keep in mind that this is supposed to be a Super Bowl or bust season.

 

This is totally wrong in my mind to what the Bills should do.  The question should center around is What happens without an extension.  If Jordan will play and be quiet - then keep him.  If he is going to be a distraction look to move on.

 

Money versus WAR goes out the window at this point - he is a 30+ year old defender - his so called WAR for this year might be a net loss, but the reality is come the next couple of years he becomes a negative player that you are tied to.

 

In addition - you say people are trying to “save Pegula from spending his money”.  No one is advocating that - heck even the Pegula’s have shown their willingness to spend money.  What would the “WAR” be if you traded Poyer (-1 from your early discussion), but they used that freed up 9+ million from Poyer as part of a trade to get Bradberry or as money to sign Gilmore or even do both (a significantly higher positive WAR based on position importance and strength).
 

At this point - I think a quality veteran CB - especially if younger - gives you better WAR return than Safety - especially in this system.

 

Their evaluation should be based upon where do we see him as a plus versus minus player and with that money and trade - what can we replace him with.  If Poyer is willing to play out the contract and not be a distraction - great.  If you can get a very team friendly deal with money up front and reducing the CAP hit this year and next, but with outs as he approaches his mid 30’s then great.  If he is not willing to do either or both - then look for ways to move on that get you better now and in the future.

 

The worst thing you can do is give him a nice extension and tick off a different veteran like Hyde.  The Miller and Diggs deal set off Poyer - does a Poyer deal set off Hyde or Knox?  At some point - someone goes - make sure you are losing older - easier to replace players rather than younger more talented players.

 

 

 

 

[BM77356]

On 4/6/2022 at 3:19 PM, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Bills fans will gladly pay Poyer’s salary. 😜

I say trade him to the Giants for their second round pick. Sign the Honey Badger. We get a proven safety, Giants get a team captain. Drew Rosenhaus is a  capitalist, he is trying to capitalize on the fact the Bills are super bowl favorites, Tre is recovering from ACL, and we do not have a number  CB2. The think Rachel Bush and Drew Rosenhaus suck.  Throw in Edmunds and we might get the 5 or 7 which we could trade down and get two first picks which have fifth year options and  are more cap friendly moving forward. We could get the best MLB on the board and save a money on Poyer and Edmunds contracts. Bean will not let Edmunds get away without compensation. He is no where near a top 10 LB

[Sierra Foothills]

 

4 hours ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

Money versus WAR goes out the window at this point - he is a 30+ year old defender - his so called WAR for this year might be a net loss, but the reality is come the next couple of years he becomes a negative player that you are tied to.

 

I think WAR is still relevant... as you suggest the Bills should be predicting his current WAR and the future WAR for any years they might extend him.

 

4 hours ago, Rochesterfan said:

In addition - you say people are trying to “save Pegula from spending his money”.  No one is advocating that - heck even the Pegula’s have shown their willingness to spend money.

 

"No one is advocating?" You're speaking for others. Anyone who says Poyer's not worth the money but who doesn't propose where that money should be re-allocated is in a savings mentality and not a spending mentality. Those people (whether they know it or not) are concerned about saving Pegula money for some hypothetical future.

 

 

4 hours ago, Rochesterfan said:

What would the “WAR” be if you traded Poyer (-1 from your early discussion), but they used that freed up 9+ million from Poyer as part of a trade to get Bradberry or as money to sign Gilmore or even do both (a significantly higher positive WAR based on position importance and strength).

 

I addressed that already... see below at the end.
 

 

4 hours ago, Rochesterfan said:

At this point - I think a quality veteran CB - especially if younger - gives you better WAR return than Safety - especially in this system.

 

Their evaluation should be based upon where do we see him as a plus versus minus player and with that money and trade - what can we replace him with.  If Poyer is willing to play out the contract and not be a distraction - great.  If you can get a very team friendly deal with money up front and reducing the CAP hit this year and next, but with outs as he approaches his mid 30’s then great.  If he is not willing to do either or both - then look for ways to move on that get you better now and in the future.

 

We're not disagreeing. You're just adding more factors to the WAR discussion.

 

4 hours ago, Rochesterfan said:

The worst thing you can do is give him a nice extension and tick off a different veteran like Hyde.  The Miller and Diggs deal set off Poyer - does a Poyer deal set off Hyde or Knox?  At some point - someone goes - make sure you are losing older - easier to replace players rather than younger more talented players.

 

Who's to say anyone is ticked off? That's presumptuous. Don't you think it's possible that Hyde (being a close friend) would be happy for Poyer? It seems that players are generally happy when a teammate "gets paid." Also, when you say "nice extension" do you mean a fair extension or do you mean overpaying?

 

Look, of course they can't pay everyone but that doesn't mean a fair deal which satisfies everyone is not possible.

 

13 hours ago, Sierra Foothills said:

As you say, if the Bills can spend that money elsewhere and it has a better overall impact than spending that money on Poyer, then it's worth it.

 

However if people want to save the money just to have it handy for "someone else later," that's more questionable because in that scenario you're not using the money to improve the team.

 

And it's important to keep in mind that this is supposed to be a Super Bowl or bust season.

Edited April 10, 2022 by Sierra Foothills

[Locomark]

On 4/8/2022 at 3:57 PM, Rock-A-Bye Beasley said:

Now you’re saying 2 years from now?  I agree with the safety value argument but I’m just sick of hearing bills fans parrot “we can’t pay everyone” 

Clearly we can. We started the offseason with negative cap space. If we can’t pay an all -pro who can we pay? The cap is going up and Poyer already makes 10 mil against the cap. It will be a modest raise/year and an extension which will create even more cap space this season. Next year we can restructure Allen and others. We can keep every single player that is on this team if we keep pushing cap hits into later years (Not saying everyone deserves an extension). We might not be able to add much more, but do we really need to? Other than draft picks? Hasn’t anyone been paying attention to how the cap works this offseason? Seems like a good chance to finally learn about it with all the signings, extensions and restructures. 

I have never changed my tune. I don’t think they be paying any safety $12 million and clearly the league doesn’t either bare on Matheiu’s situation. I guarantee you that is what his agent is telling him he can get because he is an “All Pro” and the Bills are “printing money.” Sorry he can go. We don’t want to become the New Orleans Saints and have no future because we spent too much money on over 30 guys. I also will tell you I guarantee Milano never reaches the end of his deal in 3 years without a pay cut or being traded. Look at other deals payroll on sportrac and loook at their list of high end salaries and then look at ours. Once we tack on on upcoming few like Oliver and Knox we will be overflowing with big salaries. You can’t have 15 high paid guys. It just won’t work.