Pounding the table for Christian Watson at 25

[Rk_Bills86]

5 minutes ago, mannc said:

Watson will be long gone at 57…might not make it to 25.  I don’t think Pierce makes it to 57, either.

 

I will agree that it's a high possibility that he doesn't make it to 57, but if that's really who the Bills have on their board and they are concerned - they will move up to get him. I'm actually pretty sure we'll see trade ups to "snipe" specific players this draft - specifically in RD2 and RD3 (RD 1 might be too expensive without a premium pick from next year being included)

[Einstein's Dog]

34 minutes ago, Tanoros said:

Williams is looking like a nice option if we are able to snag him. Him, Diggs, and Davis would be very hard to handle (especially when throwing Knox into the equation). 
 

I’m very curious to see what we do at cb before the draft. They have to sign someone, even if it’s just a depth signing. A BPA approach at 25 has the chance of landing us a very good player regardless of position. 
 

Whatever we do, I just want to see a pick who contributes to us winning the Super Bowl this season 😉 however that contribution is. 

The CB vet signing doesn't necessarily have to be done before the draft though.  If the large number of FA CBs are still there, no need to rush into a signing.  Haden/Gilmore/Fuller/Nelson/Callahan/Rhodes/Jenkins/Sherman - Beane's staring 'em down, he'll get one to break for a $3-4M deal.  And if they don't accept it before the draft, the price goes down after the draft - because 5 CB needy teams will have just addressed the position with top 2 round picks.

 

Secondly, the draft is for the future.  So the pick may be of small significance to our winning the Super Bowl and more integral to the overall decade of dominance we will be experiencing under the Josh era (and yes, I am hoping a Williams/Burk/Watson type influencer).

[BADOLBILZ]

1 hour ago, NewEra said:

Our first picks under Beane.  Allen, Oliver, Diggs, Rousseau.  
 

you wouldn’t happen to be exaggerating would you?  Nooooooo, not you!?!?

 

Counting drafting a QB as simply an "offensive" pick is .    You might as well not field a team at all if you don't have a good one of those.   And good QB's don't sign on with teams because they want to play with those good DE's or CB's or LB's...........you already knew that.    QB is a transcendent position for a franchise.   

 

Also..........just because Edmunds was the second first round pick doesn't mean he wasn't a first round pick.

 

The actual count is 4 defensive players drafted in round 1............zero offensive players.

 

The Diggs trade was a reactionary move after the team had failed to address receiver with ANY success in the 3 prior drafts............they had botched offensive drafting SO BADLY that they couldn't even afford to take the risk of drafting a WR and further short-handing their young QB at that point.     

 

Let's not pretend that there hasn't been more of an emphasis on the defensive side of the ball..........both contractually and in the draft..........it's indisputable.

 

 

[mannc]

14 minutes ago, Rk_Bills86 said:

 

I will agree that it's a high possibility that he doesn't make it to 57, but if that's really who the Bills have on their board and they are concerned - they will move up to get him. I'm actually pretty sure we'll see trade ups to "snipe" specific players this draft - specifically in RD2 and RD3 (RD 1 might be too expensive without a premium pick from next year being included)

I agree…I think the Bills will only pick 5 or 6 players, using the rest to move up in rounds 2-4.

[Vickveto]

1 minute ago, mannc said:

I agree…I think the Bills will only pick 5 or 6 players, using the rest to move up in rounds 2-4.

I think it is a strong possibility we move up in the first or just get a extra second out right from a Edmunds deal. From what I have seen his value is a second. And I will gladly take Montana State lb Anderson at 57

[OldTimer1960]

41 minutes ago, Vickveto said:

I just don’t see it with Pickens to be worth a first round pick. He is very good at a lot of things but I just don’t think he has a elite attribute.

spead: no             (Williams, Watson). Tyreek Hill DK Metcalf

Yac/rac: no           (Burk)

Debo Samuels 

route running no  (Olave)

Devonte Adams  Stephan Diggs

catch radius no    (?)

DeAndre Hopkins

 in order to be an elite receiver You need to be elite in at least one of these four categories which one is he going to be? 

Not meeting that definition of “elite” doesn’t rationally disqualify a player from being a 1st round pick - especially late in the first.  It is unrealistic to think that every first round pick will become elite.

[Rk_Bills86]

1 minute ago, Vickveto said:

I think it is a strong possibility we move up in the first or just get a extra second out right from a Edmunds deal. From what I have seen his value is a second. And I will gladly take Montana State lb Anderson at 57

 

I think - just based on what I've heard from NFL pundits, draft sites, and info regarding Bills visits and scouting, if we were going to move into the first it would be for Kyle Hamilton. THIS would be my target if he somehow got past the Jets and Giants at 4 and 5.

 

This is Derwin James and Minkah Fitzpatrick rolled into one - This is the jack-of-all-trades "Back 7" Player we need for our 4-2-5 to work.

 

I would 100% be working in the shadows to get him and I'd be willing to trade a player and picks for him. Also - Chad Muma is my sneaky second round pick selection for the Bills - if we were to move Edmunds in a trade.

[NewEra]

21 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Counting drafting a QB as simply an "offensive" pick is .    You might as well not field a team at all if you don't have a good one of those.   And good QB's don't sign on with teams because they want to play with those good DE's or CB's or LB's...........you already knew that.    QB is a transcendent position for a franchise.   

 

Also..........just because Edmunds was the second first round pick doesn't mean he wasn't a first round pick.

 

The actual count is 4 defensive players drafted in round 1............zero offensive players.

 

The Diggs trade was a reactionary move after the team had failed to address receiver with ANY success in the 3 prior drafts............they had botched offensive drafting SO BADLY that they couldn't even afford to take the risk of drafting a WR and further short-handing their young QB at that point.     

 

Let's not pretend that there hasn't been more of an emphasis on the defensive side of the ball..........both contractually and in the draft..........it's indisputable.

 

 

Ok….can you answer this question.  Yes or no.  Has Beane prioritized defense over offense in the first round of every draft?  Just answer the question please.  No reason to move the goal posts. 
 

I’m not pretending anything…..if I am, can you please share what I’m pretending about.  Scott made a comment that was 💯 incorrect.  And you know this

Edited April 6, 2022 by NewEra

[KOKBILLS]

49 minutes ago, Vickveto said:

I just don’t see it with Pickens to be worth a first round pick. He is very good at a lot of things but I just don’t think he has a elite attribute.

spead: no             (Williams, Watson)

Yac/rac: no           (Burk)

route running no  (Olave)

 in order to be an elite receiver You need to be elite in at least one of these three categories which one is he going to be? 

 

A stud is a stud...Pickens is an alpha...Since he was a freshman there are plenty of times he was the best player on the field...In the SEC against elite competition. He came back early from a torn ACL and was making big plays vs very good teams in big games...He's about prototype size (he could use a few more lbs)...He's a physical specimen...He's not a slot, but otherwise he can do it all...His tape is filled with highlight reel catches...On this Bills Offense...With Diggs, Davis, Knox, etc...Pickens will be a PROBLEM for opposing Defenses...Any of these receivers coming out this year will likely reach their best potential in Buffalo. There's only one #17...

 

I get that folks are still nervous about the knee...The 4.47 at the Combine was just OK...But I think he'll continue to improve top speed as he is distanced from the injury...Pickens will be hit and miss depending on his landing spot...

 

Folks here gave me a million reasons why DK Metcalf was not going to be an elite NFL WR a few years ago...It was cone drills this...Injury history that...Watch the player play the game...Pickens has special traits...I project with a higher emphasis on upside...it's a little risky...But Pickens has serious upside...

 

Kyle Crabbs - 

Edited April 6, 2022 by KOKBILLS

[Einstein's Dog]

24 minutes ago, Vickveto said:

I think it is a strong possibility we move up in the first or just get a extra second out right from a Edmunds deal. From what I have seen his value is a second. And I will gladly take Montana State lb Anderson at 57

I don't think you move Edmunds now.  And certainly not with the intention of putting in a rookie in his place.  I could see getting Anderson in the third as a future replacement for Edmunds (maybe move up in the third).  Have Anderson learn for a year and then replace Edmunds.

 

I could see the FO exploring possibilities of moving up by trading Epenesa and/or Moss.  The Giants being one suitor that is supposedly looking for some cheap labor.  I don't think it's enough juice for 1st round move up, but might do something for the second or third.

[Vickveto]

1 minute ago, Einstein's Dog said:

I don't think you move Edmunds now.  And certainly not with the intention of putting in a rookie in his place.  I could see getting Anderson in the third as a future replacement for Edmunds (maybe move up in the third).  Have Anderson learn for a year and then replace Edmunds.

 

I could see the FO exploring possibilities of moving up by trading Epenesa and/or Moss.  The Giants being one suitor that is supposedly looking for some cheap labor.  I don't think it's enough juice for 1st round move up, but might do something for the second or third.

When you’re a winning team which is something as a long time bills fan we are not used to you come to realize You can’t keep everybody. Yes we can keep edmunds but we will lose him for nothing at the end of the season. linebackers are some of the safest bets for immediate  production with higher round grades on them.  moss and Epenesa have no value we can’t trade them for anything. you have to trade something of value to get value.

[Tanoros]

1 hour ago, NewEra said:

True.  There are a couple ways to look at it.  Maybe I was being unfair to Scott.  I saw it like this:  he didn’t prioritize defense over offense in the first rd in that draft.  He prioritized offense over defense. 

Good point. His biggest moves in the first were Josh and Diggs. 

[Vickveto]

22 minutes ago, KOKBILLS said:

 

A stud is a stud...Pickens is an alpha...Since he was a freshman there are plenty of times he was the best player on the field...In the SEC against elite competition. He came back early from a torn ACL and was making big plays vs very good teams in big games...He's about prototype size (he could use a few more lbs)...He's a physical specimen...He's not a slot, but otherwise he can do it all...His tape is filled with highlight reel catches...On this Bills Offense...With Diggs, Davis, Knox, etc...Pickens will be a PROBLEM for opposing Defenses...Any of these receivers coming out this year will likely reach their best potential in Buffalo. There's only one #17...

 

I get that folks are still nervous about the knee...The 4.47 at the Combine was just OK...But I think he'll continue to improve top speed as he is distanced from the injury...Pickens will be hit and miss depending on his landing spot...

 

Folks here gave me a million reasons why DK Metcalf was not going to be an elite NFL WR a few years ago...It was cone drills this...Injury history that...Watch the player play the game...Pickens has special traits...I project with a higher emphasis on upside...it's a little risky...But Pickens has serious upside...

 

Kyle Crabbs - 

You still did not answer the question nor did the scout which of those four categories is pickens  going to be elite in because all the league wide receivers in the league or elite in at least one of those categories so don’t tiptoe around it and no 4.47 is not enough he’s very good like I said but he’s not a blazer I do not need safety help for Pickens. You have made zero points I just explained how four wide receivers in the first round could possibly become elite because they have an elite attribute but not Pickens. If he was so ALPHA he would be RAC beast like Burk. He is a second round pick he can probably become a good two. That’s not what you spend a first round draft pick on. You spend it on somebody who you think can become an elite receiver not just very good.

[Tanoros]

49 minutes ago, Einstein's Dog said:

The CB vet signing doesn't necessarily have to be done before the draft though.  If the large number of FA CBs are still there, no need to rush into a signing.  Haden/Gilmore/Fuller/Nelson/Callahan/Rhodes/Jenkins/Sherman - Beane's staring 'em down, he'll get one to break for a $3-4M deal.  And if they don't accept it before the draft, the price goes down after the draft - because 5 CB needy teams will have just addressed the position with top 2 round picks.

 

Secondly, the draft is for the future.  So the pick may be of small significance to our winning the Super Bowl and more integral to the overall decade of dominance we will be experiencing under the Josh era (and yes, I am hoping a Williams/Burk/Watson type influencer).

Good point about possibly waiting until after the draft. It certainly seems Beane has made his price point clear and it’s a matter who takes it. Playing for a super bowl contender, even if making less than one wanted, has be a perk for some. 
 

About the rookie signing contributing to a Super Bowl win, I was being facetious. Basically, as long we win the Super Bowl this year, I’m good ☺️ But your right, our draft picks need to be made more with the future in mind. It seems like cb, rb, iol, and wr are the positions that have a chance of more immediate contribution to one degree or another. 
 

Question, assuming we don’t sign a vet cb (or atleast starter quality level) before the draft, does that make you want cb in the first over the wr’s you listed? Would you be willing to wait for a cb in the second/third or later?

 

Personally, I don’t know. I’d be happy with a number of directions, we really are in a nice place going into this draft. I trust the wizard to make the right call. 

[BADOLBILZ]

25 minutes ago, NewEra said:

Ok….can you answer this question.  Yes or no.  Has Beane prioritized defense over offense in the first round of every draft?  Just answer the question please.  No reason to move the goal posts. 
 

I’m not pretending anything…..if I am, can you please share what I’m pretending about.  Scott made a comment that was 💯 incorrect.  And you know this

 

You were both wrong.    

 

Edmunds was a first round pick.........in fact, he was a 1st AND 2nd round pick because they trade up for him...........you "pretended" he was not, for some reason.

 

But the greater point that the Bills under Beane have put a much greater emphasis on defense early in the draft is quite literally indisputable.

 

And nobody has made a greater financial investment in their DL in the past few years than the Bills.

 

They also have 5 secondary members under long term contracts and both starting LB's on $10M+ aav's at this point.

 

They are FULLY invested in defense.    Offense not so much yet.

 

[BuffaloRebound]

Edmunds and pick 25 for Bradberry and pick 19 (after New Orleans trades up to pick 5 for a QB).  Then we take Dean or Lloyd at pick 19.  

[Einstein's Dog]

3 minutes ago, Tanoros said:

Good point about possibly waiting until after the draft. It certainly seems Beane has made his price point clear and it’s a matter who takes it. Playing for a super bowl contender, even if making less than one wanted, has be a perk for some. 
 

About the rookie signing contributing to a Super Bowl win, I was being facetious. Basically, as long we win the Super Bowl this year, I’m good ☺️ But your right, our draft picks need to be made more with the future in mind. It seems like cb, rb, iol, and wr are the positions that have a chance of more immediate contribution to one degree or another. 
 

Question, assuming we don’t sign a vet cb (or atleast starter quality level) before the draft, does that make you want cb in the first over the wr’s you listed? Would you be willing to wait for a cb in the second/third or later?

 

Personally, I don’t know. I’d be happy with a number of directions, we really are in a nice place going into this draft. I trust the wizard to make the right call. 

I do not want the FO to draft for need, meaning to exclusively fill the CB position.  It may fall as BPA but I hope it doesn't.  As I mentioned I hope they operate all along like they will get another vet CB.  If the price point isn't reached by the draft, I don't want them panicing.  I don't think they will.  

 

So, no, I do not want CB in the first regardless of the status of the CBs prior if it's not the BPA on their board.  I am hoping the FO ranks several WRs over CBs.  If they don't have another vet CB prior to the draft and yet there are still a lot left, I think the FO can wait and get a great deal after the draft.  It is a little contrary to what they have done in the past but in this instance I feel it could work.

[NewEra]

40 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

You were both wrong.    

 

Edmunds was a first round pick.........in fact, he was a 1st AND 2nd round pick because they trade up for him...........you "pretended" he was not, for some reason.

 

But the greater point that the Bills under Beane have put a much greater emphasis on defense early in the draft is quite literally indisputable.

 

And nobody has made a greater financial investment in their DL in the past few years than the Bills.

 

They also have 5 secondary members under long term contracts and both starting LB's on $10M+ aav's at this point.

 

They are FULLY invested in defense.    Offense not so much yet.

 

I didn’t pretend anything.  Offense WAS prioritized over defense in the first round of that draft.  That isn’t made up. 
 

Who was arguing the bolded point? Not I. First round was the talking point….not “early in the draft”.
 

No one is arguing any of the other points you’re talking about…..but carry on.   

[glazeduck]

2 hours ago, Vickveto said:

I just don’t see it with Pickens to be worth a first round pick. He is very good at a lot of things but I just don’t think he has a elite attribute.

spead: no             (Williams, Watson). Tyreek Hill DK Metcalf

Yac/rac: no           (Burk)

Debo Samuels 

route running no  (Olave)

Devonte Adams  Stephan Diggs

catch radius no    (?)

DeAndre Hopkins

 in order to be an elite receiver You need to be elite in at least one of these four categories which one is he going to be? 

@Vickveto I'd encourage you to look deeper into the metrics that most often lead to pro success. One of the leading indicators is breakout age and Pickens has one of the youngest, ever at 18.5 -- basically, how early did this kid dominate college football and he did it almost immediately. He also, in that freshman season, had a 27% dominator rating, so he was REALLY good, right away (in the SEC, no less).

 

As for his speed? The guy ran a 4.47 while rehabbing a torn ACL, so he's certainly not slow. 

Catch radius? He's 5th in this draft class among the realistic top WRs with a 77 3/8 wingspan.

His RAS (again, coming off of a major injury) was 8th best among ALL WRs -- 3rd among relevant ones.

His freak score was 4th among top WRs as well (and once again, see: tear, ACL)

 

By the data, mid-ACL-tear-recovery George Pickens is easily a top 10 wr prospect. Once he's healthy, he's top 5 or better. Then, go put on the tape. The kid is a DOG. He blocks his @$$ off, he plays with emotion and intensity, his swagger just jumps off the screen. You see a player who's average at everything, I see a kid readymade for the NFL with zero weaknesses, a very high floor and nothing but sky-high ceiling. 

Edited April 6, 2022 by glazeduck

[OldTimer1960]

44 minutes ago, Vickveto said:

You still did not answer the question nor did the scout which of those four categories is pickens  going to be elite in because all the league wide receivers in the league or elite in at least one of those categories so don’t tiptoe around it and no 4.47 is not enough he’s very good like I said but he’s not a blazer I do not need safety help for Pickens. You have made zero points I just explained how four wide receivers in the first round could possibly become elite because they have an elite attribute but not Pickens. If he was so ALPHA he would be RAC beast like Burk. He is a second round pick he can probably become a good two. That’s not what you spend a first round draft pick on. You spend it on somebody who you think can become an elite receiver not just very good.

You are kind of overlooking that Diggs was nowhere near your definition of “elite” when he was drafted (in the 5th round).  He wasn’t the route runner then that he is now.  Same withe Cooper Kupp. 
 

I think your criteria are missing some things and, again, it is unrealistic to think that every first round pick will be elite.  It is perfectly OK and a win to get “just” a good starter and every year there are guys who don’t pan out even from round 1.