Rumor: Bills want to move up in draft, may move a veteran or two to accomplish it

[Hapless Bills Fan]

37 minutes ago, BillsVet said:

Easy...I don't couch my take in regular season rankings that have nothing to do with playoff performance.  All of the people who love to cite Buffalo's "top ranked defense" never can admit that it failed when they needed it most.  Whether that was coaching or individual player, it's up for debate.  

 

OK...so you "couch" your take that McDermott doesn't know how to build an offensive unit on the playoff performance of that unit then?

Where they played "lights out"?  That doesn't make any more sense than your original take about "McCoach"

 

There are a lot of people here heavily critiquing the Bills defense based on failure when we needed it most, so I'm not sure what board you're reading

 

Seems to me these are just bad takes.

[BADOLBILZ]

7 minutes ago, Jauronimo said:

Dotson is intriguing.  I watched a ton of Penn State the last 2 years and while he was often college open due to blazing speed and defensive breakdowns he also made some ridiculous catches.  Like the first one in this video. He has great hands and plays fast but he is undersized for the NFL.

 

 

 

 

He's very good.

 

I think there is a perception that if it were down to Dotson or CB Andrew Booth Jr...........that Booth is obviously the better/more valuable asset.

 

I'm not sure that's the case.

 

I don't really know why this has happened exactly........the easy answer is to say that offense is more important than defense............. but WR has eclipsed CB in terms of premium salary expectations.

 

I thought the very top CB and WR contracts would be mirror images at this point in NFL history but that's not what is happening.

 

I know JC Jackson seemed to take a bad deal from the LAC but in general CB's aren't getting $20M+ aav deals...........top WR's are.

 

If a WR is even he's leavin' even applies to cash value of the position now.

 

[Turbo44]

24 minutes ago, OldTimer1960 said:

Man, that seems a little early to me for a guy from that level of competition.  I can see the physical tools are there and I know that he showed well at the Senior Bowl.  I also know that he didn’t have the best QB nor surrounding cast, but he is still a major projection to the NFL level to be considered at the end of round 1.  I know that others are projecting him borderline 1st as well and I also know that there are many precedents for small school guys going in the fist, so maybe I am just being too conservative in this evaluation.  It feels like Watson would be a consolation prize for failing to get Wilson, Olave, Burks, Williamson, etc.

You just described Josh Allen in 2017.  It's eerily similar

[Logic]

21 minutes ago, Jauronimo said:

Dotson is intriguing.  I watched a ton of Penn State the last 2 years and while he was often college open due to blazing speed and defensive breakdowns he also made some ridiculous catches.  Like the first one in this video. He has great hands and plays fast but he is undersized for the NFL.

 

 

I really like the Emmanuel Sanders comp for Dotson. His combination of quickness, route running, hands, and deep speed, and the fact that he has inside/outside versatility. Same height and weight.

 

Sanders was a high level receiver in this league for a long time, size be damned.

 

I would be very happy if the Bills drafted Dotson.

Edited April 1, 2022 by Logic

[OldTimer1960]

1 minute ago, Turbo44 said:

You just described Josh Allen in 2017.  It's eerily similar

Fair point and Allen so far has been better than the major college players who went ahead of him.  

1 minute ago, Logic said:

I really like the Emmanuel Sanders comp for Dotson. His combination of quickness, route running, hands, and deep speed, and the fact that he has inside/outside versatility.

 

I would be very happy if the Bills drafted Dotson.

I like Dotson a lot.  He seems like an exceptionally high floor/safe pick.  Only question with him is size/strength - at worst I think he is a very good slot receiver who has great hands and very good speed.  He is the kind of guy who has ability to turn those short crossers into long gains.  

[Brand J]

6 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

He's very good.

 

I think there is a perception that if it were down to Dotson or CB Andrew Booth Jr...........that Booth is obviously the better/more valuable asset.

 

I'm not sure that's the case.

 

I don't really know why this has happened exactly........the easy answer is to say that offense is more important than defense............. but WR has eclipsed CB in terms of premium salary expectations.

 

I thought the very top CB and WR contracts would be mirror images at this point in NFL history but that's not what is happening.

 

I know JC Jackson seemed to take a bad deal from the LAC but in general CB's aren't getting $20M+ aav deals...........top WR's are.

 

If a WR is even he's leavin' even applies to cash value of the position now.

 

Never thought I’d see the day where WR contracts eclipse CB contracts. There’s a plethora of game breaking WRs in the league, but the same can’t be said for CB. You’d think the more glut of talent one position has, the cheaper the contracts would be, since it’s theoretically easier to replace the position with talent on cost-controlled contracts. Devante Adams’s agent broke the mold. With that said, I’m of the opinion we shouldn’t be shelling out that sort of cash to the WR position and if one is drafted in the first two rounds, it likely means one of Diggs, Davis, or the rookie WR will not see their next contract in Buffalo.

[Turbo44]

1 minute ago, OldTimer1960 said:

Fair point and Allen so far has been better than the major college players who went ahead of him.  

You'd be drafting potential, which you typically don't want to do in the 1st round, but what 6'4" 210 pound guys can you find who run a 4.36?  Read somewhere that he had the 2nd best athletic score of any wr since 1987.  Not sure who's first, I'd guess Randy Moss??

 

A deep threat like him can open up a lot of underneath routes along with the running game.  It's what Lofton and Beebe did for Andre Reed, Metzelaars, even Thurman Thomas.  The K gun offense didn't explode until we got Lofton

[BillsVet]

16 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

OK...so you "couch" your take that McDermott doesn't know how to build an offensive unit on the playoff performance of that unit then?

Where they played "lights out"?  That doesn't make any more sense than your original take about "McCoach"

 

There are a lot of people here heavily critiquing the Bills defense based on failure when we needed it most, so I'm not sure what board you're reading

 

Seems to me these are just bad takes.

 

Hapless, with all due respect...regular season stats/data/rankings and the like are not the only means of measuring competency or demonstrating an innovative offense.  It's the safe argument, which is what you focus on almost universally, but I'm concerned in the results, not the effort.  

 

A real look at the offensive draft picks and UFA dollars spent shows it's a secondary objective to the HC, who is architect of the team.  Now, before you point back to ancient history and cite "Stefan Diggs" show me where they've been using their top picks well on the offensive skill positions? 

 

Because aside from the trade for Diggs, they haven't used a first on an offensive player other than their franchise QB...in 5 drafts.  And their 2nd round picks aren't exactly setting the NFL on fire unless Dawkins, Zay, and Cody Ford are your cup of tea.    

 

Last season, until late when Josh was running the ball ~9x/game in their last 7 and their offense was helter-skelter.  A new OL scheme that didn't match with their players.  Signing guys like Sanders who wasn't capable of getting deep.  Putting McKenzie in late in the season when it was clear offensive speed was at a deficit.  Moving out former 3rd round pick Moss for UFA Breida.    

 

They may go draft a fine WR in Round 1.  But their UFA period was defense heavy and that approach never gets modified with McCoach at the helm.  It's always the priority and that's not gonna work...especially when opponents are already ahead of Buffalo.   

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

My concern would be that they aren't totally committed to keeping elite talent around Allen..........that now they think he is good enough that he should be able to elevate everyone around him on the offensive side and that they will always find an excuse to focus premium assets on defense.    Basically the Green Bay treatment.

 

I'd say that the odds favor them being able to get more help at receiver at #25 than at corner.

 

But the question may be who do you think will be the better pro.........Andrew Booth or Chris Olave/Jahan Dotson/Treylon Burks/Christian Watson/George Pickens(basically whoever one thinks is the better WR prospect likely to be there)?  

 

If the answer is definitely Booth then that should be the pick.........but if not and Booth is just prioritized there because of the perception that the defense is just one piece away from being "totally set" then that's probably the wrong way to go about making that decision.     If it's a toss up then I favor the Josh Allen side of the equation........that's the way it should be and it's also the side of the ball that's easier to maintain consistency on.  

 

No I agree with that totally. Booth is the exception to me because I am super high on him. I am not really sure why the chatter on him is more lukewarm. I have him as the 4th best player in the class. His tape is pretty faultless. I'd probably take Sauce as well he is my #5 player but there is no chance he lasts.

 

Beyond that I am about building the offense. In the world where the corners, the 5 top WRs and Penning are gone my top grade at a premium position would be Kyler Gordon (well it would be Ojabo then Gordon but he has an injury flag). I have them both a point ahead of where I have Christian Watson but I'd be willing to take the gamble on Watson. I think he is a bit of a punt, low floor but super high ceiling. @OldTimer1960 is not wrong that it would be a risky pick. But at some point they have to be willing late in the 1st to take risks on playmakers. If he works out he would be emerging as a true #1 threat just at the point when you are wanting to ease off Diggs somewhat. 

1 hour ago, BillsVet said:

 

Easy...I don't couch my take in regular season rankings that have nothing to do with playoff performance.  All of the people who love to cite Buffalo's "top ranked defense" never can admit that it failed when they needed it most.  Whether that was coaching or individual player, it's up for debate.  

 

Same goes for the offense.  Josh makes a lot of people look better than they actually are (see Divisional Playoff game), and that applies to the HC who has had friction with his 2 OC hires.  

 

 

Friction, sure. But he had his second OC for 4 years and in that time they built two top performing offenses and developed a raw prospect into one of the top 3 QBs in the game. 

 

I mean if he can make similar strides with his next OC hire he can have all the friction in the world for all I care. 

[BillsVet]

10 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

Friction, sure. But he had his second OC for 4 years and in that time they built two top performing offenses and developed a raw prospect into one of the top 3 QBs in the game. 

 

I mean if he can make similar strides with his next OC hire he can have all the friction in the world for all I care. 

 

Elite QB's elevate the players and coaches around them.  You never look at that aspect in black and white, but Josh definitely is a big reason Daboll has a HC gig now.  Was Daboll really that good as a play-caller.  Friction, well, I'd guess that's present on most coaching staffs with A type personalities.  But I digress.

 

The risk averse mentality that inhabits message boards really doesn't matter.  Most people are careful and cautious with their takes for fear of alienating the homers.  But when you look around the conference and teams are are being bold on offense AND defense, well it's hard to see where the organization is supporting Josh this off-season.  My guess is, their solution is to run the ball more and take pressure off him.  

 

 

[ngbills]

On 3/31/2022 at 10:34 AM, RyanC883 said:

 

would Edmunds be a veteran?  

I would say no. Still on his rookie contract. 

[SCBills]

3 minutes ago, BillsVet said:

 

Elite QB's elevate the players and coaches around them.  You never look at that aspect in black and white, but Josh definitely is a big reason Daboll has a HC gig now.  Was Daboll really that good as a play-caller.  Friction, well, I'd guess that's present on most coaching staffs with A type personalities.  But I digress.

 

The risk averse mentality that inhabits message boards really doesn't matter.  Most people are careful and cautious with their takes for fear of alienating the homers.  But when you look around the conference and teams are are being bold on offense AND defense, well it's hard to see where the organization is supporting Josh this off-season.  My guess is, their solution is to run the ball more and take pressure off him.  

 

 

Ill hold off until after the draft to form an opinion of their off-season as related to Josh Allen.   
 

So far, in general, I give this off-season an A+.  
 

Where they’ll lose me is with a premium pick filled defensive draft, ie.. RD1 CB plus another defensive player like LB or S in the Top 100.  
 

At minimum, this offense needs another high level WR.    Ideally we also get an IOL & OT in the top half of the draft to compete for starting spots or, more likely, provide stronger depth as they develop. 

 

[BADOLBILZ]

3 minutes ago, BillsVet said:

 

Elite QB's elevate the players and coaches around them.  You never look at that aspect in black and white, but Josh definitely is a big reason Daboll has a HC gig now.  Was Daboll really that good as a play-caller.  Friction, well, I'd guess that's present on most coaching staffs with A type personalities.  But I digress.

 

The risk averse mentality that inhabits message boards really doesn't matter.  Most people are careful and cautious with their takes for fear of alienating the homers.  But when you look around the conference and teams are are being bold on offense AND defense, well it's hard to see where the organization is supporting Josh this off-season.  My guess is, their solution is to run the ball more and take pressure off him.  

 

 

 

 

I do tend to think they will try to run the ball more often.........Dorsey was a game manager QB at The U who lived off the protection of a strong running game and play action throws to TE's with occasional deep shots to then wide open receivers.   It got him a ring and is likely still part of his DNA, at least.  

 

I'm not entirely against that with Allen.......I think he could be great in a 2 TE offense......... but it is different than what he's mostly done under Daboll.

 

A heavy 12 personnel look might alleviate some of the issues they had with the lack of RAC while being a spread offense.   The offense the Bills ran under Daboll eventually required someone to make a play on a short pass in the backfield or within a few yards of the LOS and they didn't have that last season..........so they pulled the emergency lever and started running Allen.

 

But even in 12 personnel.....assuming Knox and Howard both perform admirably.........they still need players who can make explosive plays in the passing game to make it work at a 30 ppg level.    

 

That's Diggs and Davis right now.........but Davis hasn't done it week in and out yet and the next name on the X/Z receiver list is Kumerow and that ain't good enough.

 

[K-9]

4 hours ago, BillsVet said:

 

This team drafting a CB will make at least one poster's head hurt.  His name is @BillfromNYC 

 

As to McCoach...his inability to understand and build an offensive unit is concerning now into his 6th off-season as a HC.  Because after the last game they played, he's head and shoulders above anyone else at OBD as the weak link.    

We’ve had a top 5 offense two years running and it’s your contention that McBeane hasn’t built an offensive unit? OK then.

[GunnerBill]

28 minutes ago, BillsVet said:

 

Elite QB's elevate the players and coaches around them.  You never look at that aspect in black and white, but Josh definitely is a big reason Daboll has a HC gig now.  Was Daboll really that good as a play-caller.  Friction, well, I'd guess that's present on most coaching staffs with A type personalities.  But I digress.

 

The risk averse mentality that inhabits message boards really doesn't matter.  Most people are careful and cautious with their takes for fear of alienating the homers.  But when you look around the conference and teams are are being bold on offense AND defense, well it's hard to see where the organization is supporting Josh this off-season.  My guess is, their solution is to run the ball more and take pressure off him.  

 

 

Well you can't accuse me of being risk averse. I have never cared whether my opinions are popular. I say what I think. I'll give you an opinion here that is unpopular even with the "homers" - yes, Brian Daboll was a pretty good play caller. 

 

As for them needing to do more to support Josh, I 100% agree. I don't think they have done enough on the oline, I was critical of the Saffold deal. And they need to get a legit receiver in the first two rounds of the draft. I will be the first one calling them out next season if they start running it more and taking the ball out of Josh Allen's hands. I just don't think that will be the plan. 

[starrymessenger]

1 hour ago, Jauronimo said:

Dotson is intriguing.  I watched a ton of Penn State the last 2 years and while he was often college open due to blazing speed and defensive breakdowns he also made some ridiculous catches.  Like the first one in this video. He has great hands and plays fast but he is undersized for the NFL.

 

 

Undersized was the rap against DeSaun Jackson. We passed on him for the big boy Hardy. Dotson is a first round talent imo so I wouldn’t be miffed at all if he were the pick. Don’t know that Beane feels the same way.

[NewEra]

4 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Well you can't accuse me of being risk averse. I have never cared whether my opinions are popular. I say what I think. I'll give you an opinion here that is unpopular even with the "homers" - yes, Brian Daboll was a pretty good play caller. 

 

As for them needing to do more to support Josh, I 100% agree. I don't think they have done enough on the oline, I was critical of the Saffold deal. And they need to get a legit receiver in the first two rounds of the draft. I will be the first one calling them out next season if they start running it more and taking the ball out of Josh Allen's hands. I just don't think that will be the plan. 

I think that we’ll be running about the same but I think the threat of the run will be much greater with the addition of Saffold.  I know he’s not your guy due to his pass pro, but the defense has to account for him in the run game.  
 

I don’t think the addition of Kromer can be understated.  His offenses have success running the ball wherever he goes.  Add Oj Howard and more 12 personnel and I think we’re more capable of keeping the defenses honest…..while staying with our passing attack

[GunnerBill]

18 minutes ago, NewEra said:

I think that we’ll be running about the same but I think the threat of the run will be much greater with the addition of Saffold.  I know he’s not your guy due to his pass pro, but the defense has to account for him in the run game.  
 

I don’t think the addition of Kromer can be understated.  His offenses have success running the ball wherever he goes.  Add Oj Howard and more 12 personnel and I think we’re more capable of keeping the defenses honest…..while staying with our passing attack

 

And that is what it should be about. Run better not run more.

[Allen2Moulds]

2 hours ago, Turbo44 said:

You'd be drafting potential, which you typically don't want to do in the 1st round, but what 6'4" 210 pound guys can you find who run a 4.36?  Read somewhere that he had the 2nd best athletic score of any wr since 1987.  Not sure who's first, I'd guess Randy Moss??

 

A deep threat like him can open up a lot of underneath routes along with the running game.  It's what Lofton and Beebe did for Andre Reed, Metzelaars, even Thurman Thomas.  The K gun offense didn't explode until we got Lofton

I haven't looked it up, but I believe it's Calvin Johnson. Who are are referencing, Watson?

[BillsVet]

52 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Well you can't accuse me of being risk averse. I have never cared whether my opinions are popular. I say what I think. I'll give you an opinion here that is unpopular even with the "homers" - yes, Brian Daboll was a pretty good play caller. 

 

As for them needing to do more to support Josh, I 100% agree. I don't think they have done enough on the oline, I was critical of the Saffold deal. And they need to get a legit receiver in the first two rounds of the draft. I will be the first one calling them out next season if they start running it more and taking the ball out of Josh Allen's hands. I just don't think that will be the plan. 

 

My contention about the risk averse nature of people was not directed at you GB.  It's a general observation that's only grown over the years, particularly as the stakes are raised by a team that's getting into the playoffs. 

Edited April 1, 2022 by BillsVet