NFL Teams mandated to hire minority coach as offensive assistant

[UKBillFan]

https://www.nfl.com/news/nfl-forming-new-committee-to-review-league-and-team-policies-regarding-diversity
 

Plus other changes noted. I guess we meet the criteria as Kelly Skipper is our Running Backs coach? In theory, it’s a positive step for the NFL.

[The Wiz]

[Lost]

Unpopular opinion - Equity is racism.

 

  I support minority candidates getting more coaching positions but I don't like the idea of mandating such things as it could create an eventual artificial disparity amongst coaching staff in the league.   I don't know the numbers here but what if only 5% of the potential applicants seeking coaching positions are minority in some instances?  What if a team has no minority candidates currently seeking a position within their organization?   In a few years we're could be looking at a situation where minority coaches are 40-50% of all coaching staff when maybe 10-15% of individuals seeking coaching positions are minority.   I think its a better representation of the league and society in general to have the number of minority coaches actually representative of the percentage who are seeking position vs. a forced arbitrary number.  if 60% of of applicants are minority then it makes much more sense for the coaching staff makeup to also be around 60%

 

okay, flame away

Edited March 29, 2022 by Lost

[The 9 Isles]

It’s all about ESG scores. 
 

https://www.pwc.com/us/en/services/esg/library/diversity-equity-inclusion-reporting.html

 

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/e/environmental-social-and-governance-esg-criteria.asp

[Bill Lewes]

LOST -

 

I agree that equity isn't the same as equality, so no flame, just questions ...

What if the real numbers are able to show that minorities aren't being hired fairly?
How do you get from "one offensive coach" to 40-50% of a coaching staff?

I'd disagree with your suggested representative percentage of job-seekers should equal hires -- that seems like just an unfairly forced arbitrary number which has little to do with quality of applicants.

 

 

The 9 Isles - 

I appreciate your optimism that NFL owners and their partners are socially conscious investors ...  

 

Edited March 29, 2022 by Bill Lewes
spelling

[UKBillFan]

14 minutes ago, Lost said:

Unpopular opinion - Equity is racism.

 

  I support minority candidates getting more coaching positions but I don't like the idea of mandating such things as it could create an eventual artificial disparity amongst coaching staff in the league.   I don't know the numbers here but what if only 5% of the potential applicants seeking coaching positions are minority in some instances?  What if a teams has no minority candidates currently seeking a position within their organization?   In a few years we're could be looking at a situation where minority coaches are 40-50% of all coaching staff when maybe 10-15% of individuals seeking coaching positions are minority.   I think its a better representation of the league and society in general to have the number of minority coaches actually representative of the percentage who are seeking position vs. a forced arbitrary number.  if 60% of of applicants are minority then it makes much more sense for the coaching staff makeup to also be around 60%

 

okay, flame away

Can’t see why anyone would flame (famous last words?) as that seems fair and logical to me.

[Lost]

7 minutes ago, Bill Lewes said:

LOST -

 

I agree that equity isn't the same as equality, so no flame, just questions ...

What if the real numbers are able to show that minorities aren't being hired fairly?
How do you get from "one offensive coach" to 40-50% of a coaching staff?

I'd disagree with your suggested representative percentage of job-seekers should equal hires -- that seems like just an unfairly forced arbitrary number which has little to do with quality of applicants.

 

 

The 9 Isles - 

I appreciate your optimism that NFL owners and their partners are socially conscious investors ...  

 

 

I don't know the actual numbers of minority applicants to the amount of positions hired so I can't really comment if there is some actual bias happening.   I honestly don't know what the best solution is if that were actually the case either.     It doesn't seem like being a decent human being and raising your kids to be decent human beings should be too difficult a thing to ask in our society.

[DCofNC]

30 minutes ago, Lost said:

Unpopular opinion - Equity is racism.

 

  I support minority candidates getting more coaching positions but I don't like the idea of mandating such things as it could create an eventual artificial disparity amongst coaching staff in the league.   I don't know the numbers here but what if only 5% of the potential applicants seeking coaching positions are minority in some instances?  What if a team has no minority candidates currently seeking a position within their organization?   In a few years we're could be looking at a situation where minority coaches are 40-50% of all coaching staff when maybe 10-15% of individuals seeking coaching positions are minority.   I think its a better representation of the league and society in general to have the number of minority coaches actually representative of the percentage who are seeking position vs. a forced arbitrary number.  if 60% of of applicants are minority then it makes much more sense for the coaching staff makeup to also be around 60%

 

okay, flame away

Well stated, I have one nitpick, all of this is assuming the quality of the candidates is equal.  To arbitrarily force a hire based on skin tone is racism at its core.  If a white man is best qualified for the position available, why should they be dismissed, based solely on not being a minority? 
 

To take this to another extreme, Cooper Kupp has shown that white men can be top flight WRs, yet he is in the vast minority, would the NFL ever institute a rule to force teams to take a white WR regardless of skill set?  It’s effectively the same rule.

 

Furthermore, the unintended effect of this will be check box hirings where people are hired to roles simply to meet the requirement.  Those individuals are going to miss out on legitimate opportunities because they are locked to a contract that was a forced mandate.  Thus, the advancement they deserve will likely be inhibited.

Edited March 29, 2022 by DCofNC

[Big Turk]

28 minutes ago, Lost said:

Unpopular opinion - Equity is racism.

 

  I support minority candidates getting more coaching positions but I don't like the idea of mandating such things as it could create an eventual artificial disparity amongst coaching staff in the league.   I don't know the numbers here but what if only 5% of the potential applicants seeking coaching positions are minority in some instances?  What if a team has no minority candidates currently seeking a position within their organization?   In a few years we're could be looking at a situation where minority coaches are 40-50% of all coaching staff when maybe 10-15% of individuals seeking coaching positions are minority.   I think its a better representation of the league and society in general to have the number of minority coaches actually representative of the percentage who are seeking position vs. a forced arbitrary number.  if 60% of of applicants are minority then it makes much more sense for the coaching staff makeup to also be around 60%

 

okay, flame away

 

The problem is the racism is far more of an issue with these coaches not getting hired in the first place. And it's not always intended racism, a lot of times it's hidden racism...two equally qualified candidates that people are on the fence with...one white, one black...which do you think gets the job? I'd say in 90% of cases it's the white person. Why? Because 90% of the time they are being hired by other white people.

[njbuff]

So, the NFL is telling minorities they are too stupid to get these jobs on their own merit?

 

Ok

[DCofNC]

3 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

The problem is the racism is far more of an issue with these coaches not getting hired in the first place. And it's not always intended racism, a lot of times it's hidden racism...two equally qualified candidates that people are on the fence with...one white, one black...which do you think gets the job? I'd say in 90% of cases it's the white person. Why? Because 90% of the time they are being hired by other white people.

I think THIS right here is very true.  People like to surround themselves with people like themselves.   If all things were equal (they never are), I think you would be correct.  Women face the same battle in the work place. 

[bmur66]

I am no lawyer. I don't understand how this is even legal. How does the E.E.O.C. not apply to the NFL? Jobs should go to the most qualified candidate.

[DCofNC]

1 minute ago, njbuff said:

So, the NFL is telling minorities they are too stupid to get these jobs on their own merit?

 

Ok

If you take it for exactly what it is, I think this is a valid point of view that many have. There have been many scholars who have made the same argument from the minority population.  They want equal opportunity, not bogus mandates to force people to take them.

[Bill Lewes]

6 minutes ago, DCofNC said:

Well stated, I have one nitpick, all of this is assuming the quality of the candidates is equal.  To arbitrarily force a hire based on skin tone is racism at its core.  If a white man is best qualified for the position available, why should they be dismissed, based solely on not being a minority? 
 

To take this to another extreme, Cooper Kupp has shown that white men can be top flight WRs, yet he is in the vast minority, would the NFL ever institute a rule to force teams to take a white WR regardless of skill set?  It’s effectively the same rule.

Can't disagree with the quality of candidates point!

 

but, as long as we're nitpicking - the Cooper Krupp example isn't just an extreme, it's a straw man - white WRs aren't minorities in their position because of their skin color.  The whole problem is that black candidates face systemic hurdles from the time they are children that put at risk their ability to compete fairly using their non-skin color attributes. 

[Lost]

24 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

The problem is the racism is far more of an issue with these coaches not getting hired in the first place. And it's not always intended racism, a lot of times it's hidden racism...two equally qualified candidates that people are on the fence with...one white, one black...which do you think gets the job? I'd say in 90% of cases it's the white person. Why? Because 90% of the time they are being hired by other white people.

 

There probably is some biased or racist individuals rooted in the league somewhere, I mean we did see a lot of dirty stuff come out of in the past year but by and large I would say no.   If you think forcing a racist owner to hire a minority candidate as head coach is going to cure him of being racist and lead to a blossoming relationship with his new head coach it wont.  It's just going to make things worse.  

 

Perhaps the best solution would just be to have organizations just publicly disclose how many applicants they had for coaching positions and the racial makeup of the applicants and if the figures show they are displaying an obvious bias in their hiring practices they can face the public backlash which often leads to them either committing to changing their ways or resigning.   

 

At the end of the day, the most qualified candidate should get the position.  In your hypothetical of two equally qualified candidates(one minority and one not) you can't really call it racial bias if the team hires the white person, it coulda came down to the GM just simply liking his personality better.  When you look at the staffing of the team as a whole though, if a teams total coaching staff is 90% white and yet 50% of the applicants seeking position in the organization are minority then that would be a probable sign of bias happening.   

 

[RangerDave]

I agree with the concept of getting more diversity in management positions that have historically lacked such diversity.  I have to wonder, though, exactly what is considered a "minority", especially as we get more and more multicultural people.  Most federal hiring rules say anyone with 1/16 African American heritage can claim to be African American when applying for jobs or contracts.  How does one prove that?  My mother was adopted, and we know nothing about her side of the family.  Maybe one of her grandparents was African American, or Asian, or Hispanic, who knows?  And maybe that grandparent was only 1/16 minority, but records record them as "X" minority.  Does that make me 1/16 "X" minority?  Do we go by who "looks" like a minority?  That's obviously very dangerous.  And do we only go by race as the minority factor?  What about religion?  How many Jewish head coaches do we have in the NFL?  How many Muslims?  I lived in the southeastern US.  As a Catholic, I was definitely a minority there and did encounter some forms of discrimination.  Same when I lived in Utah.  Can I claim to be a minority?  What about national origin?  How many Icelandic coaches do we have?

 

Again, I applaud efforts to include people who have legitimately been denied opportunities for employment or advancement.  It is an unfortunate reality that some people are treated unfairly based on being in the minority.  Not just here in the US, but worldwide.  It would be so much better if people treated everyone with equity, but that is hard to do, and even harder to enforce as a rule.

 

I hope the NFL can find a way.

[RangerDave]

30 minutes ago, njbuff said:

So, the NFL is telling minorities they are too stupid to get these jobs on their own merit?

 

Ok

Wow.  My take on it is that the NFL acknowledges that equally qualified, or better qualified, minorities are unfairly being denied opportunities based on their skin color (or other minority attribute) and they are trying to rectify that problem.

 

But you do you.

[DCofNC]

6 minutes ago, RangerDave said:

I agree with the concept of getting more diversity in management positions that have historically lacked such diversity.  I have to wonder, though, exactly what is considered a "minority", especially as we get more and more multicultural people.  Most federal hiring rules say anyone with 1/16 African American heritage can claim to be African American when applying for jobs or contracts.  How does one prove that?  My mother was adopted, and we know nothing about her side of the family.  Maybe one of her grandparents was African American, or Asian, or Hispanic, who knows?  And maybe that grandparent was only 1/16 minority, but records record them as "X" minority.  Does that make me 1/16 "X" minority?  Do we go by who "looks" like a minority?  That's obviously very dangerous.  And do we only go by race as the minority factor?  What about religion?  How many Jewish head coaches do we have in the NFL?  How many Muslims?  I lived in the southeastern US.  As a Catholic, I was definitely a minority there and did encounter some forms of discrimination.  Same when I lived in Utah.  Can I claim to be a minority?  What about national origin?  How many Icelandic coaches do we have?

 

Again, I applaud efforts to include people who have legitimately been denied opportunities for employment or advancement.  It is an unfortunate reality that some people are treated unfairly based on being in the minority.  Not just here in the US, but worldwide.  It would be so much better if people treated everyone with equity, but that is hard to do, and even harder to enforce as a rule.

 

I hope the NFL can find a way.

All very fair.  
 

Not trying to be a wise guy, but in today’s climate, couldn’t one simply “identify” as a minority and it would stand? 

[UKBillFan]

43 minutes ago, DCofNC said:

Well stated, I have one nitpick, all of this is assuming the quality of the candidates is equal.  To arbitrarily force a hire based on skin tone is racism at its core.  If a white man is best qualified for the position available, why should they be dismissed, based solely on not being a minority? 
 

To take this to another extreme, Cooper Kupp has shown that white men can be top flight WRs, yet he is in the vast minority, would the NFL ever institute a rule to force teams to take a white WR regardless of skill set?  It’s effectively the same rule.

 

Furthermore, the unintended effect of this will be check box hirings where people are hired to roles simply to meet the requirement.  Those individuals are going to miss out on legitimate opportunities because they are locked to a contract that was a forced mandate.  Thus, the advancement they deserve will likely be inhibited.

Not sure about in America but, regarding your first paragraph, in the U.K. it’s known as positive discrimination.

[Big Turk]

39 minutes ago, DCofNC said:

I think THIS right here is very true.  People like to surround themselves with people like themselves.   If all things were equal (they never are), I think you would be correct.  Women face the same battle in the work place. 

 

I mean to some degree with women yes, but I'd say the hotter the women is, the less likely it is she faces it...in fact I'd say she jumps over other candidates because...well, I think it's obvious why.

 

The bigger issue for that situation would be salary being lower than that of her male counterparts.