Question on PSL's

[wjag]

32 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

You have to think of PSL's as a user's contribution to the cost of construction. I mean if you are a season ticket holder you get more benefit from a new stadium than someone who doesn't.

 

How's that grape Kool-aid taste?  🙂  Jerry Jones built his own stadium.    So did Stan Kroenke.  In those scenarios, I can accept the place and product belong to the owners.  Contrast that to NYS and Erie County dumping 800M in only to be charged for the right to purchase season tickets.  And outside of aesthetics and more modern bathrooms, how will a prospective season ticket holder know if his seats are better?  Will they be better protected from the wind or not?  Folks won't know that until the stadium sees a few seasons.  

 

I'll give you an example of what happened to someone I know who got suckered (aka PSL'ed) in Baltimore.  He bought a ticket on the ten yard line, lower bowl.  He even scooped up the aisle seat.  As a prior season ticket holder, he was give a few weeks to decide. 

 

He sold me a ticket to a preseason Bills v Ravens a few years ago.  With the aisle to his left and 90 yards of the field to his left, he had to angle his body to the left for most of the game.  But that was not the worst of it.  Because the aisle was there, a constant stream of fans would come down the aisle and block your POV.  And some people would hang out for a play or two to watch or chat up friends.  If they were my seats, I would have hated that.  But he was now locked in.  

Edited March 29, 2022 by wjag

[corta765]

32 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

And the real problem with seat licenses, as you point out, is that they often become worthless.   The Jets forced a lot of people to buy seat licenses, and three years later they were selling season tickets in the same section without requiring a PSL.   So why did those people have buy them?

 

Honestly I'd rather the team just straight up say its a stadium tax and it will be in place for the next 3-4 seasons and that is it. As a fan I could appetize that better then the PSL crap

[Stroke 17]

Thanks for all the input.  It seems I will be buying (paying for the PSL) and I can keep the seats as long as I keep buying tickets so it doesn't seem as if anybody, young or old, has an advantage. The disadvantage is that I usually buy 2 seats for my daughters, grandkids or friends but he PSL will end that. Sad that we won"t be together going forward. I'm sure I will not be the only one who will be affected by the change

 

Back in 99 when the Stadium was renovated and seating was changed I was offered to keep my seats in the old section ( H-2) now the Van Miller Club. At that time If I wanted to stay there I had to commit to a 5 yr plan that cost thousands per ticket plus the cost of the seats. I couldn"t afford it then. I had been there for 20 years and just like hat I was forced to leave. We were able to relocate by seniority but was a bit of a rush job.

 

So while I love this Stadium, all the games, the players and the people I have met through the years I realize its not up to me whether they build new or not. What I do know is I love Buffalo Bills football and all that goes with it, it is my addiction so with that said, God willing, I will be moving.

 

My hope is that the Bills treat my 42 years of loyalty in a fair manner when it comes time for the move.

[Shaw66]

18 minutes ago, corta765 said:

 

Honestly I'd rather the team just straight up say its a stadium tax and it will be in place for the next 3-4 seasons and that is it. As a fan I could appetize that better then the PSL crap

I don't disagree.   The cost should be the cost, period.   

[Greg S]

31 minutes ago, BUFFALOBART said:

The question that I have, is are we going to pay PSL's in 2023, or will that happen, when the new facility opens for business?

 

If the Bills do it like the Jets your PSL fee starts when the new stadium opens. The Jets gave three options to pay the PSL fee. Pay in one shot, pay over 10 years, or pay over 15 years. I have 2 seats and my PSL fee is $5000 per seat. No way I could do $10000 in one shot. I chose to pay over 10 years. The Jets also separate the PSL fee from the season ticket fee. For season tickets the Jets give options. Pay in full by Feb 1st. Either by CC or check, pay over 4 months starting Feb 1st but this is by CC only, or pay over 12 months also by CC only. PSL fees are due Nov 1st. They give two options on the PSL fee. Pay in full by check or CC due Nov 1st or pay over 4 months starting Nov 1st by CC only.

31 minutes ago, BUFFALOBART said:

The question that I have, is are we going to pay PSL's in 2023, or will that happen, when the new facility opens for business?

 

If the Bills do it like the Jets your PSL fee starts when the new stadium opens. The Jets gave three options to pay the PSL fee. Pay in one shot, pay over 10 years, or pay over 15 years. I have 2 seats and my PSL fee is $5000 per seat. No way I could do $10000 in one shot. I chose to pay over 10 years. The Jets also separate the PSL fee from the season ticket fee. For season tickets the Jets give options. Pay in full by Feb 1st. Either by CC or check, pay over 4 months starting Feb 1st but this is by CC only, or pay over 12 months also by CC only. PSL fees are due Nov 1st. They give two options on the PSL fee. Pay in full by check or CC due Nov 1st or pay over 4 months starting Nov 1st by CC only.

[BarleyNY]

1 hour ago, djp14150 said:

 

this is the key in the legal spdocument…

 

if yiu win a PSL, do you also have to buy season tickets or can you pass on it for a season.

 

this is subject to NY stsate law

In other cases I have seen, the PSLs are immediately forfeited if season tickets are not renewed.  NYS would get some props from me if they disallowed that practice.  I have not heard of any such law and Google is giving me nothing on it.  Please link to that info if you have it.  Or are you just speculating?

59 minutes ago, BUFFALOBART said:

The question that I have, is are we going to pay PSL's in 2023, or will that happen, when the new facility opens for business?

It would be at the time people reserve their season tickets at the new stadium.  I am sure there will be payment plans. 

[longtimebillsfan]

3 hours ago, RyanC883 said:

 

exactly.  there will be increased travel to games because they are inside, wait, nevermind.  The whole thing is ill conceived.  I don’t live in NYS (Pgh) but this stadium will only serve Buffalo at most late April to October for non-football and the rest of the time is used once a week.  

 

that study seems suspect given that Soldier Field is still around.   Wrigley, etc.  

The renovation of the existing stadium would have cost 1 billion dollars.  Wrigley Field was last remodeled in 2014.  Soldiers Field was remodeled in 2002 - 2003. The remodels have not lasted 30 years.  I used to live in Chicago.  Both have been remodeled several times.  Would you spend 71% of the cost of a new care to repair an out of date car?  Most likely not.  That is what the report was presenting with the options.

 

Also, keep in mind that the financial support for the new stadium is an investment by the state of New York.  They will have been repaid their original investment by year 22 of the lease.  by the end of the 30 year lease they will have made a profit on their investment.  The $250 million from Erie county will not cause a raise in taxes.  $75 million will be funded from the excess funds from the 2021 budget.  The $125 million will be a loan.  I assume they will be bonds.

 

Not sure what your issue is.  If you want to have an NFL team this is what needs to be done.  If the State of New York and Erie County didn't step up, another city would have.  Would you rather loose the Bills franchise or are you just having a bad day.

 

Either way, smile, the Bills are here to stay for 2056 at least.

 

You should be more worried whether we will still be wishing for our first Super Bowl win by the end of the new lease.

[BarleyNY]

1 minute ago, BUFFALOBART said:

The issue for me, may be Moot. I'll be on the cusp of 73 years of age, when the '26 season opens. The round trips from one end of the State, to the other are becoming more difficult.

That being said, I intended on closing my season ticket account, after my 30th season. - Then came Josh Allen.... 

I’m sure you’ll be here for quite awhile. Still, I’m glad for all of us who get to see this run.

[Matt_In_NH]

11 hours ago, ProcessTruster said:

Guess I need to get to more games in the next 4 years... that's the Bills window anyway.  

Erie County can choke on the 15 event per year, big albatross , after that.     

 

Still not buying that a tiny market like WNY benefits from a $1.4+B stadium ,relative to the cost.   For example, I don't see the NFL banging on Green Bay to build something new.   How is it that Green Bay gets away with it, but WNY needs to cave in to the NFL to the detriment of the average fan, the county and the state? 

Is this more “disrespect” for Buffalo?   We are getting picked on?

[MPT]

11 hours ago, ProcessTruster said:

Guess I need to get to more games in the next 4 years... that's the Bills window anyway.  

Erie County can choke on the 15 event per year, big albatross , after that.     

 

Still not buying that a tiny market like WNY benefits from a $1.4+B stadium ,relative to the cost.   For example, I don't see the NFL banging on Green Bay to build something new.   How is it that Green Bay gets away with it, but WNY needs to cave in to the NFL to the detriment of the average fan, the county and the state? 

 

I assume that Green Bay gets away with it because they are publicly owned and would just vote against a stadium that costs them taxpayer money as long as they were content with the quality of their stadium. The NFL no longer allows this ownership model but they were grandfathered in. They did spend $300 million in 2003 and $400 million in 2015 on major renovations of the stadium though.

 

And from what I understand, the cost of the lease on the current stadium in Buffalo combined with the cost of renovating it would have been almost as much as building a new one.

Edited March 29, 2022 by MPT

[djp14150]

8 hours ago, BarleyNY said:

In other cases I have seen, the PSLs are immediately forfeited if season tickets are not renewed.  NYS would get some props from me if they disallowed that practice.  I have not heard of any such law and Google is giving me nothing on it.  Please link to that info if you have it.  Or are you just speculating?

It would be at the time people reserve their season tickets at the new stadium.  I am sure there will be payment plans. 

 

its not the payment of the seat license I’m talking about.  It’s the ability to keep it if you don’t buy season tickets.  I don’t know what ny state has in terms of property law that could prevent the need to sell property you don’t use.

 

im thinking grandfather buys this for grand kids who now might be 10 now.

 

another issue is ny state inheritance laws and the longer legal process over assets. In real estate and divorce it’s a very litigious process…some of these regulations coukd be applied to these.

 

will there be controls on who can buy these such as scalpers can’t.

Edited March 30, 2022 by djp14150

[Richard Noggin]

12 hours ago, Dopey said:

Between the 65" TV, blue tooth sound system, furniture and bar I built, I'm in for $5500 for my man cave. I get to choose my neighbor (not some drunk @&#) and the weather is always nice. September and October games on the back deck with my grill and smoker set up. If you have a medical weed card, you get parking preference and we can do the tailgating festivities like beer pong, cornhole etc. No table jumping! This will be the 7th straight season. I do try to make 1 home game. I'm September or October.  Sooo much better, IMO.

I hear this approach. Sounds like an awesome setup. 

 

Over the course of this past season, though, I'd argue that something special happened inside the stadium. From frustrating losses, to improbably and memorably bad weather ALL season long, to a late season surge punctuated by an epically cold and generationally joyous playoff win, the Buffalo Bills organization and its fans RECLAIMED HOME FIELD ADVANTAGE. Truly. After decades of homefield futility and crushing defeats, after Josh Allen's early-career yips at home, after 2020's barren stadiums, and after comically bad weather on MNF, this current Bills team finally figured out how to win in Orchard Park when it matters most. And in doing so, they reconnected with the gameday fans. 

 

So while I LOVE a good gameday backyard, garage, basement, or cave bar experience, the stadium experience was special by season's end. Everyone in attendance had to EARN IT this year. 

[BarleyNY]

22 minutes ago, djp14150 said:

 

its not the payment of the seat license I’m talking about.  It’s the ability to keep it if you don’t buy season tickets.  I don’t know what ny state has in terms of property law that could prevent the need to sell property you don’t use.

 

im thinking grandfather buys this for grand kids who now might be 10 now.

 

another issue is ny state inheritance laws and the longer legal process over assets. In real estate and divorce it’s a very litigious process…some of these regulations coukd be applied to these.

 

will there be controls on who can buy these such as scalpers can’t.

Every PSL I have seen works as I described.  They each give the owner the right to buy the season ticket for that seat.  They are immediately forfeited if the owner does not purchase a season ticket.

[Richard Noggin]

9 hours ago, wjag said:

 

How's that grape Kool-aid taste?  🙂  Jerry Jones built his own stadium.    So did Stan Kroenke.  In those scenarios, I can accept the place and product belong to the owners.  Contrast that to NYS and Erie County dumping 800M in only to be charged for the right to purchase season tickets.  And outside of aesthetics and more modern bathrooms, how will a prospective season ticket holder know if his seats are better?  Will they be better protected from the wind or not?  Folks won't know that until the stadium sees a few seasons.  

 

I'll give you an example of what happened to someone I know who got suckered (aka PSL'ed) in Baltimore.  He bought a ticket on the ten yard line, lower bowl.  He even scooped up the aisle seat.  As a prior season ticket holder, he was give a few weeks to decide. 

 

He sold me a ticket to a preseason Bills v Ravens a few years ago.  With the aisle to his left and 90 yards of the field to his left, he had to angle his body to the left for most of the game.  But that was not the worst of it.  Because the aisle was there, a constant stream of fans would come down the aisle and block your POV.  And some people would hang out for a play or two to watch or chat up friends.  If they were my seats, I would have hated that.  But he was now locked in.  

But don't Dallas and LA charge PSLs anyways?

 

And aren't the State and County contributions considered loans/investments because over the course of the lease the taxes remitted back to those entities more than pays for the initial outlay? 

[PromoTheRobot]

9 hours ago, wjag said:

 

How's that grape Kool-aid taste?  🙂  Jerry Jones built his own stadium.    So did Stan Kroenke.  In those scenarios, I can accept the place and product belong to the owners.  Contrast that to NYS and Erie County dumping 800M in only to be charged for the right to purchase season tickets.  And outside of aesthetics and more modern bathrooms, how will a prospective season ticket holder know if his seats are better?  Will they be better protected from the wind or not?  Folks won't know that until the stadium sees a few seasons.  

 

I'll give you an example of what happened to someone I know who got suckered (aka PSL'ed) in Baltimore.  He bought a ticket on the ten yard line, lower bowl.  He even scooped up the aisle seat.  As a prior season ticket holder, he was give a few weeks to decide. 

 

He sold me a ticket to a preseason Bills v Ravens a few years ago.  With the aisle to his left and 90 yards of the field to his left, he had to angle his body to the left for most of the game.  But that was not the worst of it.  Because the aisle was there, a constant stream of fans would come down the aisle and block your POV.  And some people would hang out for a play or two to watch or chat up friends.  If they were my seats, I would have hated that.  But he was now locked in.  

 

Both were done in markets where the chances of making back the investment were high. Dozens on non-football events are staged in AT&T and SoFi stadiums. COuld you say the same about WNY? The Final Four? A Super Bowl? Neither would come here. Without public money Buffalo would have no pro sports at all.

[Richard Noggin]

18 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

Both were done in markets where the chances of making back the investment were high. Dozens on non-football events are staged in AT&T and SoFi stadiums. COuld you say the same about WNY? The Final Four? A Super Bowl? Neither would come here. Without public money Buffalo would have no pro sports at all.

I was living and working in hospitality in uptown Dallas when that first George Strait concert was held. It was like the biggest concert event in the history of music for a considerable demographic of the U.S., and the celebrities, athletes, and ultra-wealthy corporations and private citizens who flocked to it must have generated enough revenue, and the promise of future revenue, to exponentially reward the Jones clan on a scale most of us cannot really grasp. 

 

As you note, WNY isn't playing on the same field as markets like Dallas and LA. While I don't wish to forgive our MEGA RICH owners for their lack of comparable skin in the game, I also know the State and County essentially are forced to play ball. And of course it's not an investment without merit, considering consequential revenues collected over the 30-year term. Just sad that this is where things stand. 

[BobbyC81]

15 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

Read the articles.  It's not economically feasible to rebuild the stadium  It would cost nearly as much to rebuild the stadium as to build the new one, the rebuild stadium would have a shorter life span, and it wouldn't be as nice.  

 

The options are build a stadium or lose the team.  Pretty simple.  Sounds like you're prepared to lose the team.  I'm not a New York State taxpayer, so I'm all for a new stadium.   I can see how some state and local taxpayers might feel differently.  

I know I mentioned Oakland earlier, but their mayor and City Council have been stubborn about using public money on stadiums/arenas.  As a result, the Warriors moved across the bay to San Francisco, the Raiders moved to Vegas and the A’s have one foot out the door to Vegas.  Apparently the mayor has focused on spending on other needs and despite losing those first two teams, she was re-elected.  I guess they don’t have as many sports fans as they used to.

[bigduke6]

PSL = pay for a seat twice.  its a great scam.

[Chaos]

On 3/29/2022 at 1:08 AM, ExiledInIllinois said:

Like a pyramid scheme. 

Explain

 

[ExiledInIllinois]

35 minutes ago, Chaos said:

Explain

 

From 2009:

https://nypost.com/2009/03/01/about-that-psl/

 

Keep on calling down the list. 

 

Seems like a great, sustainable plan for a place and economy like BFLo.

 

Give it a few years... 😏