Bills match Bears Offer Sheet for Ryan Bates, 4 yr deal

[BullBuchanan]

50 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

I don't see the argument that this was a bad move. Why would you take a solid OLman for 1 year $4m and then they hit free agency, over 4 years $17m? Is it just the small sample size or what?

This place is goofy when it comes to Beane. He can do no wrong apparently. It's not enough that he's very good - he has to be the craftiest and smartest football mind anyone has ever seen - despite a not insignificant number of missteps.

I really like Ryan bates and I have since i first watched him play his rookie year. That aside, the way he's been handled has been bizarre his entire time here.

If Beane valued Bates so highly and wanted him as part of his long term plan, he could have signed him to an extension at any point over the last year to lock him up without him testing free agency and they would have been able to control the terms. If he wasn't sure about it up until the tender period, he probably should have put more than the minimum tender on him, because the opportunity cost of losing him would be too great.

If he didn't value him that highly, then committing to him for 4 years doesn't seem like a wise move either. Did he make a move out of short term desperation because he didn't wnat to walk into the season with his hands tied to draft a guard early to compete with Ford?

To give Beane credit that he wanted Bates all along, but he chose to expose him to the open market knowing that all 31 other NFL GMs that watch all the same tape as he does would drive down Bates' value, because they don't see what he sees and then he could swoop in and snap him up at a discount  - is completely asinine. We're talking about the same guy that traded Wyatt teller away for a bag of footballs. He's not omnipotent.

5 hours ago, Buddo said:

 

When do you think we would be making that offer 'on our terms?'

At any point during the previous or upcoming season. He hadn't talked with any other teams until we opened that door for him.

[BruceVilanch]

8 hours ago, HOUSE said:

Holy Visa card...

 

 

I think this off season required the AMEX Black card.

[HappyDays]

2 minutes ago, BullBuchanan said:

If Beane valued Bates so highly and wanted him as part of his long term plan, he could have signed him to an extension at any point over the last year to lock him up without him testing free agency and they would have been able to control the terms.

 

Bates isn't the caliber of player that you sign mid-season, or even before free agency. Nobody thought that was ever an option. Those signings are reserved for the core players, the ones you can't replace without a significant drop off. That isn't Bates.

 

It's already been explained to you by multiple posters but Beane played it perfectly. Once you've established that Bates is going to be an RFA and that you will have enough cap space to re-sign him to a reasonable deal, the best case scenario is that another team offers him a multi-year extension that you have a right to match. If some team way overpays him, you wish them well and work to replace him. If a team gives him a contract that you think meets his value the work is done for you.

 

If your argument is that he should have been signed before FA that's crazy. He's in the Isaiah McKenzie tier of players that you keep around only if you don't need to use salary cap elsewhere, and after they've gotten a realistic sense of their value around the league. The silly thing is you're quibbling over a difference of maybe $250K against the cap in 2022... A 2nd round tender would have been a terrible idea. No team would even bother making him an offer at that tender and we'd have to accept having him under our control for just one more year.

 

11 minutes ago, BullBuchanan said:

We're talking about the same guy that traded Wyatt teller away for a bag of footballs. He's not omnipotent.

 

Wyatt Teller wasn't a case of salary or contract mismanagement. It was a case of poor talent evaluation and development by the now departed OL coach, and possibly OC. I have admitted Beane is not the best talent evaluator. That has nothing to do with how he played Bates' situation perfectly.

[Locomark]

1 hour ago, ColoradoBills said:

Shout out for the Sabres with a game winning goal with 10 seconds left.

 

Team is turning around!

We are 13 points out of dead last and 40 from the top of the league, let’s not overreact to our team now. With that said, that was the craziness ending goal I have ever seen. 

5 hours ago, Doc said:

 

Actually Crowder's best season was in 2016 (67, 847, 12.6, 7, 67.7%, don't know).  And it was better than Beasley's best season prior to joining the Bills.  The question is staying healthy.

Basically Beasley hasn’t played healthy for the last 2 years so he can’t be any less durable…. 

[Locomark]

9 hours ago, FFadpecr said:

 

 

 

9 hours ago, FFadpecr said:

 

 

So at $17 mil they got Bates for 4 years for the same price as what Williams would have cost us for 2 years or what Feliciano was costing us for 3 years to sit on the bench. Plus Bates can play all 3 positions. 

[GreggTX]

I hope we aren't overpaying him. He's a career backup. I assume the 4 year deal was to lure him away. We still have a gaping hole at RG. Brown is terrible in pass protection and not much better as a run blocker. I'd love to see us draft a CB in round 1 and go OL twice on day 2 or go OL/CB/RB. If Singletary goes down, our run game goes down with him. Moss and Johnson don't give me any confidence. Neither do Bates or Boettger. We will pay a price for our biggest salaries with a few more holes in other starting spots.

[GreggTX]

41 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Bates isn't the caliber of player that you sign mid-season, or even before free agency. Nobody thought that was ever an option. Those signings are reserved for the core players, the ones you can't replace without a significant drop off. That isn't Bates.

 

It's already been explained to you by multiple posters but Beane played it perfectly. Once you've established that Bates is going to be an RFA and that you will have enough cap space to re-sign him to a reasonable deal, the best case scenario is that another team offers him a multi-year extension that you have a right to match. If some team way overpays him, you wish them well and work to replace him. If a team gives him a contract that you think meets his value the work is done for you.

 

If your argument is that he should have been signed before FA that's crazy. He's in the Isaiah McKenzie tier of players that you keep around only if you don't need to use salary cap elsewhere, and after they've gotten a realistic sense of their value around the league. The silly thing is you're quibbling over a difference of maybe $250K against the cap in 2022... A 2nd round tender would have been a terrible idea. No team would even bother making him an offer at that tender and we'd have to accept having him under our control for just one more year.

 

 

Wyatt Teller wasn't a case of salary or contract mismanagement. It was a case of poor talent evaluation and development by the now departed OL coach, and possibly OC. I have admitted Beane is not the best talent evaluator. That has nothing to do with how he played Bates' situation perfectly.

I agree with this except the comparison between McKensie and Bates. McKensie is an average WR -- Borderline starter/backup. Bates is nowhere near that level.

[BullBuchanan]

1 hour ago, HappyDays said:

It's already been explained to you by multiple posters but Beane played it perfectly. Once you've established that Bates is going to be an RFA and that you will have enough cap space to re-sign him to a reasonable deal, the best case scenario is that another team offers him a multi-year extension that you have a right to match. If some team way overpays him, you wish them well and work to replace him. If a team gives him a contract that you think meets his value the work is done for you.

Oh, it was "explained", but not in any way that is actually rational. People are deriving the process that best suits their agenda based on the result that already occurred. The problem is that the core principle of the argument doesn't hold up under even mild scrutiny. Just because a bunch of folks like the way it sounds to them doesn't make it logical.

Everyone's trying so hard to prove how right they are and how wrong I am, that you don't even see it anymore. Beane could have just as easily offered Bates the same deal at any point prior to today while preventing other teams from being able to offer him a contract without compensation. Why didn't he? Did he think his value was less? Does Bates want out and this was the only way we could trap him into a long term contract? Did he not know what it would take to close the deal? (I believe this could actually be possible based on his contract history).

How does it result in the best possible outcome by letting the entire market "do your negotiating for you"? In my experience, that's never true. Is Beane that bad of a negotiator that the only price he could get someone to agree to was tying the absolute top of the market? He literally could not have paid more for Bates than he did and yet somehow he played it "perfectly" according to you guys.
 

Edited March 29, 2022 by BullBuchanan

[BullBuchanan]

7 hours ago, Malazan said:

 

The other thing I think people underplay here is that Beane literally just got another team negotiate a deal for him and he absolutely knows what Bates could get in FA. If you put a 2nd round tender on him.. no other team even sniffs around.

That's not a good thing. That's why it's being underplayed.

[John from Riverside]

All this teeth nashing bates his back and that’s all that matters

 

He’s young versatile and smart

[Malazan]

14 minutes ago, BullBuchanan said:

That's not a good thing. That's why it's being underplayed.

 

Sometimes, when everyone disagrees with you.. it's not because you're a secret genius.. it might going the other way. 

[BullBuchanan]

2 minutes ago, Malazan said:

 

Sometimes, when everyone disagrees with you.. it's not because you're a secret genius.. it might going the other way. 

Let me know when you run out of ad hominems and decide to try to justify your weak arguments. People tend to rally to dumb ideas because they're easy to wrap your head around and write slogans for. It doesn't make them good ideas.

If you think it takes a "secret genius" to posit an off the wall position that it's sub-optimal to allow as many suitors as possible to outbid you before closing, then I would be happy to be your realtor or middle man in any financial transaction where I get a cut of the total cost you pay.

[Nihilarian]

2 hours ago, HappyDays said:

Wyatt Teller wasn't a case of salary or contract mismanagement. It was a case of poor talent evaluation and development by the now departed OL coach, and possibly OC. I have admitted Beane is not the best talent evaluator. That has nothing to do with how he played Bates' situation perfectly.

This! 

 

GM's need to get the opinions of his scouts along with team coaches on players. It's not just his opinion they go with.

 

Not to mention that very few players walk on a pro field and are ready to start and those are usually early draft picks. Sometimes it takes a few seasons of game experience to fully develop a player. 

 

I for one am happy that Bates is back as I watched him pancake opponents in the playoffs...where it counts!  Hope he keeps up that intensity.

[Buffalo Barbarian]

Yay !!

[John from Riverside]

2 hours ago, GreggTX said:

I agree with this except the comparison between McKensie and Bates. McKensie is an average WR -- Borderline starter/backup. Bates is nowhere near that level.

What exactly do you base this on

[GunnerBill]

4 hours ago, HappyDays said:

Wyatt Teller wasn't a case of salary or contract mismanagement. It was a case of poor talent evaluation and development by the now departed OL coach, and possibly OC. I have admitted Beane is not the best talent evaluator. That has nothing to do with how he played Bates' situation perfectly.

 

Yea Beane's real strength as a GM is as a strategist rather than as an evaluator. He came from a football ops background. He only started to learn about scouting when Dave Gettleman arrived in Carolina. The best talent evaluator on the staff was Joe Schoen. Will be interested to see who Beane has in that kinda 2nd chair role this year. 

[GolfandBills]

3 hours ago, GreggTX said:

I hope we aren't overpaying him. He's a career backup. I assume the 4 year deal was to lure him away. We still have a gaping hole at RG. Brown is terrible in pass protection and not much better as a run blocker. I'd love to see us draft a CB in round 1 and go OL twice on day 2 or go OL/CB/RB. If Singletary goes down, our run game goes down with him. Moss and Johnson don't give me any confidence. Neither do Bates or Boettger. We will pay a price for our biggest salaries with a few more holes in other starting spots.

Brown was also a project 3rd round pick thrown into the fire.  To say he was terrible is plain false.  

[John from Riverside]

4 hours ago, GreggTX said:

I hope we aren't overpaying him. He's a career backup. I assume the 4 year deal was to lure him away. We still have a gaping hole at RG. Brown is terrible in pass protection and not much better as a run blocker. I'd love to see us draft a CB in round 1 and go OL twice on day 2 or go OL/CB/RB. If Singletary goes down, our run game goes down with him. Moss and Johnson don't give me any confidence. Neither do Bates or Boettger. We will pay a price for our biggest salaries with a few more holes in other starting spots.

…………….

[LyndonvilleBill]

7 hours ago, Big Turk said:

 

Except your theory about run blocking seems a little strange considering the Bills started running the ball at a pace near the top of the NFL in yards per game once he started playing...clearly he had a very positive effect on the run game because Singletary started looking really good at about the same time as well.

I am not saying he didn't do his 1/11th. He did great in a limited sample size and hardly any wear on his body at the end of a season. I Was trying to find an old article back from the playoffs that said pretty much what I did and if I come across it, I'll post the link. But an ESPN article stated that Bates had a 93% pass win rate but only a 59% rush win rate (link below). I'd like a little more balance. I love having him, it just seems most people think he's the missing link and I don't agree (at least at this point). He was the mightiest of the midgets we had on the team and that wasn't a high bar to reach. I still think we need to draft a t/g that has some meat to him. At just over 300lbs, seems pretty lean to me for a starting guard. Weren't people unhappy when Feliciano came in lighter than expected and he was still heavier than Bates?

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/33586248/chicago-bears-sign-buffalo-bills-og-ryan-bates-offer-sheet-source-says%3fplatform=amp

[Rochesterfan]

7 hours ago, Limeaid said:

 

I disagree there was not a chance no one would make an offer.  Teams do make offers I cannot believe.

But odds were better this way.

 

Well maybe, but the best deal he got was 250 thousand over the 2nd round tender and the bears would have had to give up a 2nd round pick.

 

I doubt very much they make that offer with having to give up the pick potentially.  
 

The NFL seemed to agree his worth was right near that higher tender and the 2nd round pick would have been a steep price for a team - maybe someone does it, but I highly doubt it for Bates - a UDFA with 5 games worth of experience.