mrags Posted March 20, 2023 Posted March 20, 2023 3 hours ago, FrenchConnection said: Because a good football team that sells out every game only plays ax maximum 11 homes games a year. Let’ say the stadium holds 60,000. Even at 9 games that’s 540,000 a year. If a bad baseball team draws 15,000 a game. at 81 games that’s 1,215,000 a season. There is also a tradition of tailgating at football games that baseball games don’t have. I’m not saying that stadiums are a bad investment. But I am saying that NFL stadiums are a bad investment. At most, a team plays 11 home games. The worst baseball team plays 81 home games with a minimum of 15,000 tickets sold. Here in Cincinnati the Reds have a much more positive impact in the downtown economy even though the Bengals are SB contenders and the Reds are a last place team. Bad investment or not. A stadium in a place with more possibility for growth is much better than in a place that will never grow. Your right. It’s a bad investment. Why not put it in a place that may do some good. 1 hour ago, Buffalo716 said: Lmao just stop It’s keeping the Buffalo Bills in business…. Everybody who talks junk… It’s just junk pseudo The bills did decades of research…. There is no Positive influence, From a downtown stadium compared to one in Orchard Park Decades of research show the financial difference is minute …. A brand new NFL stadium brings about the same economic revenue as a new target A brand new Bill stadium downtown compared to Orchard Park brings in about the same as a new target… And that is from decades of research The bills get to keep one thing playing in WNY…. And that’s the Buffalo bills! Seriously half the people who are clamoring for a downtown stadium don’t live in Buffalo Because real Buffalonians are extremely fine with the Bill staying in Western New York Ummm, I am a real buffalonian. Live in the suburbs now and have for all. It 2 years of my life. I love my city. Just wish every once in a while we made the right decisions and tried to better ourselves instead of going the cheap small minded route. I am happy they are staying here. But a stadium smack dab in the middle of nowhere is just dumb. Always has been. Do a lookup in every NFL team and tell me how many have stadiums in the suburbs. I guarantee it’s less than 10 and likely more like 5. Bad investment or not, the rest of the nfl puts their stadiums in their cities. Not East bumf$&k nowhere with no potential for growth. you guys can call me wrong all you want. But a stadium in the middle of nowhere doesn’t make sense other than doing it for less money. The Bills studies proved it was less money and that’s why it was chosen to go that route. Because Terry didn’t want to buck up another $500m or more. Poor Terry, if he paid that he wouldn’t be able to afford gas for his yatch. 1
JoPoy88 Posted March 20, 2023 Posted March 20, 2023 17 minutes ago, mrags said: Bad investment or not. A stadium in a place with more possibility for growth is much better than in a place that will never grow. Your right. It’s a bad investment. Why not put it in a place that may do some good. Ummm, I am a real buffalonian. Live in the suburbs now and have for all. It 2 years of my life. I love my city. Just wish every once in a while we made the right decisions and tried to better ourselves instead of going the cheap small minded route. I am happy they are staying here. But a stadium smack dab in the middle of nowhere is just dumb. Always has been. Do a lookup in every NFL team and tell me how many have stadiums in the suburbs. I guarantee it’s less than 10 and likely more like 5. Bad investment or not, the rest of the nfl puts their stadiums in their cities. Not East bumf$&k nowhere with no potential for growth. you guys can call me wrong all you want. But a stadium in the middle of nowhere doesn’t make sense other than doing it for less money. The Bills studies proved it was less money and that’s why it was chosen to go that route. Because Terry didn’t want to buck up another $500m or more. Poor Terry, if he paid that he wouldn’t be able to afford gas for his yatch. I live in Buffalo too. I’ve also lived in Boston. No one complained about the stadium in Foxborough, beyond the obvious complaints about traffic. Especially when they were winning all the time, everything was cool.
LeGOATski Posted March 20, 2023 Posted March 20, 2023 25 minutes ago, mrags said: Do a lookup in every NFL team and tell me how many have stadiums in the suburbs. I guarantee it’s less than 10 and likely more like 5. This is a prime example of a false perspective that maybe a lot of people share, which leads to unrealistic expectations. Start in the east and you have 5 teams right off the bat: Patriots, Giants/Jets, Washington, Bills 5 stadiums all in the suburbs and that's not even looking at the rest of the NFL. Off the top of my head I know Arizona and GB (obviously) are in suburbs. Isn't Cowboys stadium in Arlington? That's 8.... Should we keep going? 1
LeGOATski Posted March 20, 2023 Posted March 20, 2023 Still going because I got curious. Levi Stadium is in North San Jose, not even in San Francisco... Chicago is planning to build there's in the suburbs Arrowhead is outside of the East Side suburbs. Definitely not downtown. Houston is definitely not downtown, but relatively short jaunt down the highway, so that seems nice.... The Chargers in San Diego and Raiders in Oakland were out in the suburbs until they moved to huge cities. But let's not forget that the Chargers don't even have they're own stadium now.
Matt_In_NH Posted March 20, 2023 Posted March 20, 2023 4 hours ago, Buffalo716 said: The bills did decades of research…. There is no Positive influence, From a downtown stadium compared to one in Orchard Park Does this assume the additional cost that would be needed, it just doesn't pay back? There are a lot of people here who sound like toddlers who want their fancy toy but there are limits to what Daddy (onwer, state, county) will spend. There are many people who want nothing to do with it, the fact is you are getting good chunk of public money. Things cost money, stadiums cost lots of money, it has to come from somewhere, in this case Daddy doesn't have it or is unwilling to pay it, so we all need to accept that. The alternative could be the Bills were gone from the region. People have "ideas" about what the impact would be if it was a dome or downtown and some of that just sounds good, its not factual. At the end of the day, no decision was going to make people happy. If it was downtown and a dome, there would be backlash. At some point need to just accept what it is and move on. You ain't changing it. 1
K-9 Posted March 20, 2023 Posted March 20, 2023 2 hours ago, LeGOATski said: This is a prime example of a false perspective that maybe a lot of people share, which leads to unrealistic expectations. Start in the east and you have 5 teams right off the bat: Patriots, Giants/Jets, Washington, Bills 5 stadiums all in the suburbs and that's not even looking at the rest of the NFL. Off the top of my head I know Arizona and GB (obviously) are in suburbs. Isn't Cowboys stadium in Arlington? That's 8.... Should we keep going? Lambeau Field is located in an urban residential neighborhood. It may not be in downtown Green Bay, but it’s not in the suburbs either. As to the larger point being made about stadium locations, a third are located in downtown areas, another third are located in the city but not downtown, and a third are located in suburban areas. I believe Gillette is considered to be in an exurban area.
May Day 10 Posted March 20, 2023 Posted March 20, 2023 (edited) The downtown stadium would have been a lot of extra cost and time. It wasn't specifically mentioned, but I would bet lots of red tape: studies, committees, resistance, etc. Especially down near cobblestone/Perry. You are crowbarring a stadium down there. A lot of acquisition, demo, and major infrastructure work. As it is, traffic for Sabres games can get REALLY bad. This is for 10-ish dates a year. If their studies bore that they could have had a magnetic draw like Atlanta or Dallas, then it is a different story. The competition for all those events is getting intense now that we have LA and Vegas joining the fray, and soon Nashville. We would be competing for secondary events against Minnesota, Detroit, Indy, and now the renovated Skydome. The delta between the time and money required vs possible revenue was clearly not in favor of building downtown. The State/County/City/Pegulas can probably put a fraction of that delta into renovating the Key Bank center and continue to attract plenty of events to keep those businesses down there (mostly restaurants and pubs) sustained. I would love to see a permanent Molson Amphitheatre style concert venue downtown by the water. Could put Darien Lake out of business, and probably host 40+ events from the Spring to Fall. I said it upthread, but the key to downtown development is business. We need large companies anchored downtown with people living, commuting, and spending down there. They wouldn't be able to develop and build stuff fast enough. We are a region where much of the $ is in the 2nd ring suburbs and it kind of works its way inward (Not saying the closer to the city, the poorer you are, I know very well off people who live in the city)... Edited March 20, 2023 by May Day 10 1
LeGOATski Posted March 20, 2023 Posted March 20, 2023 2 hours ago, K-9 said: Lambeau Field is located in an urban residential neighborhood. It may not be in downtown Green Bay, but it’s not in the suburbs either. As to the larger point being made about stadium locations, a third are located in downtown areas, another third are located in the city but not downtown, and a third are located in suburban areas. I believe Gillette is considered to be in an exurban area. "Urban residential neighborhood" is different than suburb?Just look at a map and images of the area. Anyway, that's two thirds of the league. Not 5 teams, like @mragsand probably some other people assume.
PBF81 Posted March 20, 2023 Posted March 20, 2023 2 hours ago, May Day 10 said: I said it upthread, but the key to downtown development is business. We need large companies anchored downtown with people living, commuting, and spending down there. Great point! But that goes hand in hand with the notion that NYS has been chasing those very businesses, while ensuring that others never come, due to their ridiculously high taxes. In short, file under never going to happen. 2
K-9 Posted March 20, 2023 Posted March 20, 2023 56 minutes ago, LeGOATski said: "Urban residential neighborhood" is different than suburb?Just look at a map and images of the area. Anyway, that's two thirds of the league. Not 5 teams, like @mragsand probably some other people assume. Yes, it is different because the stadium is located within the Green Bay city limits. As I mentioned above, one third of the league’s stadiums are considered to be located in suburban areas. Certainly more than the five @mragsmentioned but far less than the two thirds that are located in either downtown areas or within actual city limits. 1
BillStime Posted March 20, 2023 Posted March 20, 2023 13 hours ago, JoPoy88 said: exactly what it would do if it was downtown. Keep the team in Buffalo. That’s ALL it does I have no more words for you people that don’t understand it. Christ. So, you're telling us that a stadium in the city would do jack for the region? We should spend $1B+ in OP and get nothing for our investment for the region? Let me guess - die hard tailgater? 1 1
FieldGeneral Posted March 20, 2023 Posted March 20, 2023 What's the point in arguing about roof/no roof or downtown/OP? The plans are what they are, they aren't changing.
Bob Jones Posted March 20, 2023 Posted March 20, 2023 5 minutes ago, FieldGeneral said: What's the point in arguing about roof/no roof or downtown/OP? The plans are what they are, they aren't changing. Construction worker here. Theoretically, until the foundation is in the ground, anything & everything *could* be changed. Yes, it doesn’t seem likely here, but it's not impossible. Of course, as with most everything, it's all about the $$$. 2 1
Gregg Posted March 20, 2023 Posted March 20, 2023 3 minutes ago, Bob Jones said: Construction worker here. Theoretically, until the foundation is in the ground, anything & everything *could* be changed. Yes, it doesn’t seem likely here, but it's not impossible. Of course, as with most everything, it's all about the $$$. The Bills have the most powerful person in NY on their side. They aren't going anywhere except into their new stadium.
mrags Posted March 21, 2023 Posted March 21, 2023 16 hours ago, JoPoy88 said: I live in Buffalo too. I’ve also lived in Boston. No one complained about the stadium in Foxborough, beyond the obvious complaints about traffic. Especially when they were winning all the time, everything was cool. Didn’t they build like an entire city center around Gillette? You’ll have to excise me because I’ve never been there but looking at their website it says there’s 19 restaurants, shopping, nightlife, bowling, top golf, movies, etc the 2 aren’t the same. Sounds like there’s more to do at Patriot Place campus than all of Orchard Park combined. 16 hours ago, LeGOATski said: This is a prime example of a false perspective that maybe a lot of people share, which leads to unrealistic expectations. Start in the east and you have 5 teams right off the bat: Patriots, Giants/Jets, Washington, Bills 5 stadiums all in the suburbs and that's not even looking at the rest of the NFL. Off the top of my head I know Arizona and GB (obviously) are in suburbs. Isn't Cowboys stadium in Arlington? That's 8.... Should we keep going? 16 hours ago, LeGOATski said: Still going because I got curious. Levi Stadium is in North San Jose, not even in San Francisco... Chicago is planning to build there's in the suburbs Arrowhead is outside of the East Side suburbs. Definitely not downtown. Houston is definitely not downtown, but relatively short jaunt down the highway, so that seems nice.... The Chargers in San Diego and Raiders in Oakland were out in the suburbs until they moved to huge cities. But let's not forget that the Chargers don't even have they're own stadium now. Lol. Every single one of those “suburbs” has probably 3x as many people as all of downtown Buffalo. They aren’t the same.
mrags Posted March 21, 2023 Posted March 21, 2023 9 hours ago, FieldGeneral said: What's the point in arguing about roof/no roof or downtown/OP? The plans are what they are, they aren't changing. Because this is a message board and that’s what we do? 1
Buffalo716 Posted March 21, 2023 Posted March 21, 2023 (edited) 30 minutes ago, mrags said: Didn’t they build like an entire city center around Gillette? You’ll have to excise me because I’ve never been there but looking at their website it says there’s 19 restaurants, shopping, nightlife, bowling, top golf, movies, etc the 2 aren’t the same. Sounds like there’s more to do at Patriot Place campus than all of Orchard Park combined. Lol. Every single one of those “suburbs” has probably 3x as many people as all of downtown Buffalo. They aren’t the same. Ummm Kansas City has 500000k And their stadium is 100% not downtown seeing I was there last season Buffalo has 280, 000 people in the city …. And another 300,000* in the surrounding suburbs… well over 1,000,000 metro Absolutely not 3x less than the city of KC lol… In fact… Kansas City smelled, Food was overrated The people were the only good thing Rather be in Buffalo Edited March 21, 2023 by Buffalo716 1
mrags Posted March 21, 2023 Posted March 21, 2023 17 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said: Ummm Kansas City has 500000k And their stadium is 100% not downtown seeing I was there last season Buffalo has 280, 000 people in the city …. And another 300,000* in the surrounding suburbs… well over 1,000,000 metro Absolutely not 3x less than the city of KC lol… In fact… Kansas City smelled, Food was overrated The people were the only good thing Rather be in Buffalo Ok. So there’s one off that list. By the way, I never brought up Kansas City. But since I had to look it up. It’s listed as having surrounding areas of over 1.7m in population. So, still pretty much 75% more than Buffalo and it’s surrounding areas. Giants and Jets play in a metropolis compared to Orchard Park and are only a 20 minute drive to Manhattan with access to 20m in population in the New York metro area. ever been to Santa Clara? I have multiple times. It’s 15 minutes from San Jose which has a population of 1.8m. And 45 minutes from San Francisco and Oakland with a population of over 1.4m between them. It’s in the middle of Silicon Valley which is like the 10th largest areas in the US. There’s not a single area of downtown Buffalo that could compete with any of it. Regardless of having their own stadium or not, the Chargers now reside in LA where the Rams built the biggest and baddest stadium that will likely ever be in the NFL. Even split up between the 2 teams they come in way over what any other stadium has. never been to Arlington but I’d imagine it’s similar in that even the suburbs are larger, and more populated than downtown Buffalo. Oh, just checked. According to wiki it’s over 300k. And it’s smack dab in the middle of Fort Worth (1m) and Dallas (6m+) FedEx Field? It’s a 25min drive from Washington DC. With a population of almost 1m. Arizona? Glendale itself has a population of 250k. But let’s not kid ourselves, the stadium is located in Maricopa County which boasts a population of over 4.4m between Phoenix, Tempe, Scottsdale, and Mesa. again, I didn’t bring these places up. Yes they are in suburbs, but let’s be real here, most of the “suburbs” are larger than Downtown Buffalo, if you throw in surrounding areas to the mix, Buffalo likely doesn’t even belong in the league with almost every team in the league. screw it, let’s just sell the team. I’m sick of arguing about this. 1 2
Buffalo716 Posted March 21, 2023 Posted March 21, 2023 5 minutes ago, mrags said: Ok. So there’s one off that list. By the way, I never brought up Kansas City. But since I had to look it up. It’s listed as having surrounding areas of over 1.7m in population. So, still pretty much 75% more than Buffalo and it’s surrounding areas. Giants and Jets play in a metropolis compared to Orchard Park and are only a 20 minute drive to Manhattan with access to 20m in population in the New York metro area. ever been to Santa Clara? I have multiple times. It’s 15 minutes from San Jose which has a population of 1.8m. And 45 minutes from San Francisco and Oakland with a population of over 1.4m between them. It’s in the middle of Silicon Valley which is like the 10th largest areas in the US. There’s not a single area of downtown Buffalo that could compete with any of it. Regardless of having their own stadium or not, the Chargers now reside in LA where the Rams built the biggest and baddest stadium that will likely ever be in the NFL. Even split up between the 2 teams they come in way over what any other stadium has. never been to Arlington but I’d imagine it’s similar in that even the suburbs are larger, and more populated than downtown Buffalo. Oh, just checked. According to wiki it’s over 300k. And it’s smack dab in the middle of Fort Worth (1m) and Dallas (6m+) FedEx Field? It’s a 25min drive from Washington DC. With a population of almost 1m. Arizona? Glendale itself has a population of 250k. But let’s not kid ourselves, the stadium is located in Maricopa County which boasts a population of over 4.4m between Phoenix, Tempe, Scottsdale, and Mesa. again, I didn’t bring these places up. Yes they are in suburbs, but let’s be real here, most of the “suburbs” are larger than Downtown Buffalo, if you throw in surrounding areas to the mix, Buffalo likely doesn’t even belong in the league with almost every team in the league. screw it, let’s just sell the team. I’m sick of arguing about this. Just To be fair You said the surrounding suburbs of these cities mostly have three times as many population as the city of Buffalo Which is just not true at all go bills! I would watch them at Buffalo State Stadium 1
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