JoPoy88 Posted March 19, 2023 Posted March 19, 2023 4 hours ago, mrags said: Great. A stadium in the middle of no where Orchard Park definitely seems like the answer Yes, it is. They don’t drive development either way, so it doesn’t matter where they put it. Sorry you don’t like it. 2
May Day 10 Posted March 19, 2023 Posted March 19, 2023 A football stadium accomplishes almost zero downtown. The arena is capable of hosting 99% of events people envision for this hypothetical $2 billion downtown football facility. What we desperately need are fortune 500s anchoring downtown, so we can have a proper and robust affluent downtown self-sustaining community. 1
Rock-A-Bye Beasley Posted March 19, 2023 Posted March 19, 2023 5 hours ago, JoPoy88 said: Yes, it is. They don’t drive development either way, so it doesn’t matter where they put it. Sorry you don’t like it. You and others keep parroting this. However, I think it’s misguided. Buffalo is a unique situation, and the comprehensive study on the impact of football stadiums on economies doesn’t directly apply. reasons they say the economic impact is negligible for the stadiums studied: ”As for the rosy economic projections conjured up to support stadium subsidies? They are doomed by design. Easy-to-observe spending on tickets, concessions, and other related consumption in and around stadiums comes largely from local residents who were already spending their income locally. A family that buys hot dogs, peanuts, and popcorn at the game would have otherwise spent that money at some other local business, perhaps going out to dinner or a movie. Stadiums don’t boost host economies, because stadium-related spending mostly isn’t new spending. It’s the same spending reallocated to a different location.” You tell me, does that sound like Buffalo? a lot of Buffalo’s problems are due to how spread out everything is. People are traveling from all over the region and Canada to the middle of nowhere for games currently. Hopefully you can agree that putting the stadium near other attractions and hotels would capture more tourist and local spending. If not, then I suspect this is a clear case of confirmation bias. You didn’t want a downtown stadium, then you heard about a study, and now you won’t stop talking about it. Also, all of the stadiums studied don’t share the state with the largest city in the country. Getting the state to invest more in Buffalo is a good thing. Otherwise that money is just going to build another courthouse in Brooklyn or something.
PBF81 Posted March 19, 2023 Posted March 19, 2023 15 hours ago, LeGOATski said: Instead of a big expensive building barely being used out in the suburbs, you'd have an even bigger, more expensive building barely being used downtown. Oh, and on top of that, the football/tailgating experience would suck now too. That's my big thing, the tailgating experience would be permanently changed. I think it's going to drastically change anyway, although not as much as with a downtown stadium. Some have pointed out tho that the NFL wants to change our tailgating experience. i.e., get rid of the "lowbrow" attendees and Carter more towards the white collar crowd. Get rid of the table-jumping and dubious shenanigans that pop up on social media, and the drunkenness, etc. They argue that PSLs and twice the pricing for tix so will do that. The crazy higher prices will probably help achieve that, but I suppose it's moot to the possibility of a downtown stadium.
LeGOATski Posted March 19, 2023 Posted March 19, 2023 10 minutes ago, Rock-A-Bye Beasley said: You and others keep parroting this. However, I think it’s misguided. Buffalo is a unique situation, and the comprehensive study on the impact of football stadiums on economies doesn’t directly apply. reasons they say the economic impact is negligible for the stadiums studied: ”As for the rosy economic projections conjured up to support stadium subsidies? They are doomed by design. Easy-to-observe spending on tickets, concessions, and other related consumption in and around stadiums comes largely from local residents who were already spending their income locally. A family that buys hot dogs, peanuts, and popcorn at the game would have otherwise spent that money at some other local business, perhaps going out to dinner or a movie. Stadiums don’t boost host economies, because stadium-related spending mostly isn’t new spending. It’s the same spending reallocated to a different location.” You tell me, does that sound like Buffalo? a lot of Buffalo’s problems are due to how spread out everything is. People are traveling from all over the region and Canada to the middle of nowhere for games currently. Hopefully you can agree that putting the stadium near other attractions and hotels would capture more tourist and local spending. If not, then I suspect this is a clear case of confirmation bias. You didn’t want a downtown stadium, then you heard about a study, and now you won’t stop talking about it. Also, all of the stadiums studied don’t share the state with the largest city in the country. Getting the state to invest more in Buffalo is a good thing. Otherwise that money is just going to build another courthouse in Brooklyn or something. What exactly here is unique to Buffalo? You don't think other stadiums have fans traveling from all over? Do you have specific numbers to compare? They did do a study specific to Buffalo prior to deciding where the stadium should go. You think if the study showed the economic benefit and ROI was great, that the Pegulas still wouldn't want a more expensive domed palace downtown? On the contrary, I'm sure they would absolutely love to build that if it was actually a smart move. 8 minutes ago, PBF81 said: That's my big thing, the tailgating experience would be permanently changed. I think it's going to drastically change anyway, although not as much as with a downtown stadium. Some have pointed out tho that the NFL wants to change our tailgating experience. i.e., get rid of the "lowbrow" attendees and Carter more towards the white collar crowd. Get rid of the table-jumping and dubious shenanigans that pop up on social media, and the drunkenness, etc. They argue that PSLs and twice the pricing for tix so will do that. The crazy higher prices will probably help achieve that, but I suppose it's moot to the possibility of a downtown stadium. It may change a little, but I doubt it's drastically going to change. Regardless what the upfront price is, I imagine people are still going to be able to get resale tickets reasonably cheap.
Rock-A-Bye Beasley Posted March 19, 2023 Posted March 19, 2023 5 minutes ago, LeGOATski said: What exactly here is unique to Buffalo? You don't think other stadiums have fans traveling from all over? Do you have specific numbers to compare? They did do a study specific to Buffalo prior to deciding where the stadium should go. You think if the study showed the economic benefit and ROI was great, that the Pegulas still wouldn't want a more expensive domed palace downtown? On the contrary, I'm sure they would absolutely love to build that if it was actually a smart move. It may change a little, but I doubt it's drastically going to change. Regardless what the upfront price is, I imagine people are still going to be able to get resale tickets reasonably cheap. Well the study says most fans spending at these stadiums are local. If you're contending that point, fine I guess. Buffalo is more spread out than most cities. I'm saying even someone coming from as close as East Aurora might get a hotel and dinner/shopping outside the stadium. Not to mention the Canadians wanting to drink during the game and not have to cross the border immediately after. So even if the benefit is minimal it's still a unique case compared to most of the stadiums studied.
PBF81 Posted March 19, 2023 Posted March 19, 2023 59 minutes ago, Rock-A-Bye Beasley said: Getting the state to invest more in Buffalo is a good thing. Otherwise that money is just going to build another courthouse in Brooklyn or something. Look, it's naive to think that dropping a stadium downtown is going to all of a sudden get the state to start "investing" in Buffalo. It just is. I mean what's the basis for it besides wishful thinking. There is none if were going to be honest. Buffalo will never be a hotspot for "conventions." Larger conventions are held in either nice weather cities or cities where there are a ton of things to do downtown. "Bars, shopping, and restaurants" are in every city, and Canalside isn't that kind of large enough of a draw. Look at the cities that host them, them compare them to Buffalo, even with a downtown stadium if you prefer. There's no comparison. Secondly, they require significant hotel s and public transportation. Buffalo doesn't stack up there either. Look, we love it, it's our region, were know it's hidden secrets, things that you can't find anywhere else, but those aren't going to draw masses from around the country compared to immediately available in the surrounding area in other cities. As to stadium economics, the only studies that indicate that these stadiums "pay for themselves" are thrown up without any proof by politicians, developers, and others with self-interests in seeing them built. There isn't a credible economist anywhere that will even remotely back up that notion. They cost, they don't pay. But people believe what they want, again, in their self interests. People avoid them, but here are the facts. Buffalo is a shrinking city, the people born here leave once they finish school in large measure. The regional population is being sustained by immigration, not the good kind. Sure there are some great things going on in the region. But "bars, restaurants, and shopping" are hardly unique to the region. Taxes are crazy high with services for them light. So many people already come from well outside the immediate region for games. The new pricing structure will price many locals out. Many have even said so here. As for me, it's a matter of principle that I would never pay for a PSL, I don't care what it's for. So I guess it's secondary market for me. Full disclosure, I'm no longer a STH anyway since I moved to far away to attend most games. It's been secondary market anyway. But I've read, that the new pricing model takes this into account, and they're planning that the ticket agencies will be buying many tix and the PSLs, which I find to be disappointing. I hope it's not true. Anyway, Buffalo will never be the hotbed of economic activity that many seem to think it will be, regardless of what they build. The single biggest impediment is the high taxes. That's what's driven both people and businesses away to begin with. Trying to lure them back with a stadium to look at, bars, restaurants, and breweries, which exist everywhere else too, isn't going to happen. Canalside and a few other things aren't going to cut it, not by a longshot. The fact of the matter is that we're simply lucky to still have a team. There are many other places that an owner could move this team and instantly increase its value. I'll say it again, if we didn't currently have a team, the chances of us getting one would be slim to nil. We would never make the short list for consideration for a team moving or for an expansion team. I get it, we all love this region, it's truly "home" for many of us. I regret not being able to live in WNY today, now, but it is what it is. To pretend that it's not doesn't change anything. I've also noticed that the biggest believers in a downtown stadium are locals. I'm also speculating that most of them have never lived outside of Buffalo in another metro area for any extended period of time. The few that I know haven't. If they did, perhaps that would provide a different perspective. Just sayin'. 46 minutes ago, LeGOATski said: It may change a little, but I doubt it's drastically going to change. Regardless what the upfront price is, I imagine people are still going to be able to get resale tickets reasonably cheap. Don't know about that. According to their survey we can expect ticket prices to double or so. That doesn't include the PSLs. I guess if resellers don't mind losing money. They'll sell according to demand. With a healthy Allen demand is high. Without a healthy Allen, ... ? 1 1
Rock-A-Bye Beasley Posted March 19, 2023 Posted March 19, 2023 3 minutes ago, PBF81 said: Look, it's naive to think that dropping a stadium downtown is going to all of a sudden get the state to start "investing" in Buffalo. It just is. I mean what's the basis for it besides wishful thinking. There is none if were going to be honest. Buffalo will never be a hotspot for "conventions." Larger conventions are held in either nice weather cities or cities where there are a ton of things to do downtown. "Bars, shopping, and restaurants" are in every city, and Canalside isn't that kind of large enough of a draw. Look at the cities that host them, them compare them to Buffalo, even with a downtown stadium if you prefer. There's no comparison. Secondly, they require significant hotel s and public transportation. Buffalo doesn't stack up there either. Look, we love it, it's our region, were know it's hidden secrets, things that you can't find anywhere else, but those aren't going to draw masses from around the country compared to immediately available in the surrounding area in other cities. As to stadium economics, the only studies that indicate that these stadiums "pay for themselves" are thrown up without any proof by politicians, developers, and others with self-interests in seeing them built. There isn't a credible economist anywhere that will even remotely back up that notion. They cost, they don't pay. But people believe what they want, again, in their self interests. People avoid them, but here are the facts. Buffalo is a shrinking city, the people born here leave once they finish school in large measure. The regional population is being sustained by immigration, not the good kind. Sure there are some great things going on in the region. But "bars, restaurants, and shopping" are hardly unique to the region. Taxes are crazy high with services for them light. So many people already come from well outside the immediate region for games. The new pricing structure will price many locals out. Many have even said so here. As for me, it's a matter of principle that I would never pay for a PSL, I don't care what it's for. So I guess it's secondary market for me. Full disclosure, I'm no longer a STH anyway since I moved to far away to attend most games. It's been secondary market anyway. But I've read, that the new pricing model takes this into account, and they're planning that the ticket agencies will be buying many tix and the PSLs, which I find to be disappointing. I hope it's not true. Anyway, Buffalo will never be the hotbed of economic activity that many seem to think it will be, regardless of what they build. The single biggest impediment is the high taxes. That's what's driven both people and businesses away to begin with. Trying to lure them back with a stadium to look at, bars, restaurants, and breweries, which exist everywhere else too, isn't going to happen. Canalside and a few other things aren't going to cut it, not by a longshot. The fact of the matter is that we're simply lucky to still have a team. There are many other places that an owner could move this team and instantly increase its value. I'll say it again, if we didn't currently have a team, the chances of us getting one would be slim to nil. We would never make the short list for consideration for a team moving or for an expansion team. I get it, we all love this region, it's truly "home" for many of us. I regret not being able to live in WNY today, now, but it is what it is. To pretend that it's not doesn't change anything. I've also noticed that the biggest believers in a downtown stadium are locals. I'm also speculating that most of them have never lived outside of Buffalo in another metro area for any extended period of time. The few that I know haven't. If they did, perhaps that would provide a different perspective. Just sayin'. I agree with the overall sentiment here, but a couple things: 1) The State putting $600mil toward the stadium is what I meant by investing in Buffalo. Currently it's scheduled to go to Orchard Park. Still a win for upstate, but I think a wasted opportunity. 2) I never said bars, restaurants and shopping are unique to Buffalo. Not sure if you were implying that. 3) Yes, Buffalo is never going to be a top destination city. I think you're overstating what I think a downtown stadium would do. To me it's just trying to build some semblance of a respectable city center. Not saying the stadium would have done that all by itself. 4) I left Buffalo not too long after college, came back briefly then left again, but I am 100% for a stadium downtown.
Beast Posted March 19, 2023 Posted March 19, 2023 13 hours ago, Buffalo716 said: Yep every study says that’s not true And downtown Buffalo actually has a really good scene of Trendy bars and restaurants… Hipster places Sheas district is great I mean, I don’t want to come off as a jerk but does the Bills fanbase seem like the kind of fanbase, as a whole, that likes “trendy” or “Hipster”? JMO, but it seems they like to drink beer out of a can or tap and bar-b-que and eat fried foods and party hard in the great outdoors.
LeGOATski Posted March 19, 2023 Posted March 19, 2023 1 hour ago, Rock-A-Bye Beasley said: Well the study says most fans spending at these stadiums are local. If you're contending that point, fine I guess. Buffalo is more spread out than most cities. I'm saying even someone coming from as close as East Aurora might get a hotel and dinner/shopping outside the stadium. Not to mention the Canadians wanting to drink during the game and not have to cross the border immediately after. So even if the benefit is minimal it's still a unique case compared to most of the stadiums studied. Based on what? This doesn't seem factual. How is Buffalo "more spread out than most cities"?
PBF81 Posted March 19, 2023 Posted March 19, 2023 50 minutes ago, Rock-A-Bye Beasley said: I agree with the overall sentiment here, but a couple things: 1) The State putting $600mil toward the stadium is what I meant by investing in Buffalo. Currently it's scheduled to go to Orchard Park. Still a win for upstate, but I think a wasted opportunity. 2) I never said bars, restaurants and shopping are unique to Buffalo. Not sure if you were implying that. 3) Yes, Buffalo is never going to be a top destination city. I think you're overstating what I think a downtown stadium would do. To me it's just trying to build some semblance of a respectable city center. Not saying the stadium would have done that all by itself. 4) I left Buffalo not too long after college, came back briefly then left again, but I am 100% for a stadium downtown. re: 1) Well, I suppose, but back to my points, a wasted opportunity to do what? Spend more money and provide a few more things for Buffalonians? Because again, if it's an opportunity to "draw people" for conferences or whatever, that's not going to happen. If it's the State investing in Buffalo, also not going to happen. It hasn't happened for decades and that's not about to change. They only put money into Albany and NYC. I guess I'm not understanding specifically, and within factual parameters, which "opportunity" we're missing out on other than some more choices for locals. The whole thing reminds me of that ridiculous Fast Ferry that Rochester did. Same there, they told us that once it was there that Ontarians would flock to Rochester for the shopping and experiences. LMAO That's not too far off of what we're talking about here. You have to remember, that if these things were lucrative, private investors would be lining up to do them. That's not the case nearly to the extent that it is elsewhere. At the end of the day it's all economics and the economics all revolve around taxes. What would you propose tho, specifically? re: 2) Yeah, I know, I was also responding generally to some other posts. But this "bars and restaurants ..." thing is ridiculous. Building more and more things to attract people simply doesn't work when your taxes are as high as NYS' are. 3) Per above, what do you think it would do? How would you envision it unfolding? ... As for me, I was against a downtown stadium. It would have altered the tailgating permanently, and not in a good way. Parking garages would have been necessary and tailgating in them would be nonexistent. The ingress/egress would be ridiculous. A few feet of snow would be far worse than it is at OP. Going to games wouldn't be the same, not in a good way. The appeal for many Bills fans is the tailgating, which is equally important as the game. If it meant just showing up and going to the game, I think I'd rather just watch it at home or at a Bills bar and eat and drink what I want in perfect comfort. A lot of people think that way. I'm not quite sure what those that preferred a downtown stadium have a realistic picture of how it would actually be. They seem to try to transplant downtown stadiums in other cities into Buffalo, but we can't do that. Those cities are so much different than ours. I would be in favor of having a roof that closed, if for no other reason than to keep it closed until gamedays. If it snows 3 ft. then at least the seats are covered in snow and need to be cleared out. If it's too miserably cold or crappy outside, close the roof, otherwise, open it on gamedays. We're all just pissing into the wind here. LOL Let's face it, we're lucky to even have a team still. Buffalo is by far the smallest financially and economically sized NFL city in the league. Smaller that Cincinnati even by a significant amount. IMO Pegula is the last Buffalo Bills owner that we'll have. Even he has said that it's all about the money first. If it works, then he'll stick around. i.e., he's essentially said if we build it then he'll come. There's a reason why he said he won't sign a lease extension at the current stadium until he sees a formalized Stadium Agreement.
Buffalo716 Posted March 19, 2023 Posted March 19, 2023 (edited) 4 hours ago, Beast said: I mean, I don’t want to come off as a jerk but does the Bills fanbase seem like the kind of fanbase, as a whole, that likes “trendy” or “Hipster”? JMO, but it seems they like to drink beer out of a can or tap and bar-b-que and eat fried foods and party hard in the great outdoors. Life isn’t black-and-white For as many blue collared hard-working roofers there are The city of Buffalo is filled with an under 35 crowd…. Allentown , sheas district, Elmwood Village,.. Tons of Happening places… That is not a dive… tons of breweries and distilleries that are trendy My point was people were saying maybe a stadium downtown could revitalize it and bring more shops and restaurants…. There are already tons of mom and pop shops and cool trendy bars and restaurants downtown Downtown is not a dump it’s kind of hip already and been on the up and up Edited March 19, 2023 by Buffalo716
Mr. WEO Posted March 19, 2023 Posted March 19, 2023 5 hours ago, Rock-A-Bye Beasley said: Well the study says most fans spending at these stadiums are local. If you're contending that point, fine I guess. Buffalo is more spread out than most cities. I'm saying even someone coming from as close as East Aurora might get a hotel and dinner/shopping outside the stadium. Not to mention the Canadians wanting to drink during the game and not have to cross the border immediately after. So even if the benefit is minimal it's still a unique case compared to most of the stadiums studied. Buffalo has plenty of empty hotels rooms as it is for the Canadians to sleep off a bender. Buffalo is "spread out"? Have you been to other cities? Atlanta is spread out. So is LA. NYC to some degree suit public transportation moots that for the most part.
Mr. WEO Posted March 19, 2023 Posted March 19, 2023 On 3/18/2023 at 3:49 PM, brianthomas said: I know here in Buffalo for decades i've heard of the need for a new & larger convention center & the economic boon to the city we'd get if larger conventions could be held here. I'm no engineer or developmental planner but integrating the 2 concepts together could've been a wonderful opportunity. Isn't that what they did with the AT&T Stadium in Dallas? They use it to bring in big events during the off-season which in-turn brings in millions in revenue each year? Not just to the stadium itself, but to all the local hotels & businesses now booked due to the influx of visitors? What a great idea or concept! Wish we would've thought of it. Its just 1 example of the contrast between smart forward thinking planning & whatever we had. ATT is booked for "big events" only 10 nights between now and October.
Augie Posted March 19, 2023 Posted March 19, 2023 4 hours ago, Rock-A-Bye Beasley said: I agree with the overall sentiment here, but a couple things: 1) The State putting $600mil toward the stadium is what I meant by investing in Buffalo. Currently it's scheduled to go to Orchard Park. Still a win for upstate, but I think a wasted opportunity. 2) I never said bars, restaurants and shopping are unique to Buffalo. Not sure if you were implying that. 3) Yes, Buffalo is never going to be a top destination city. I think you're overstating what I think a downtown stadium would do. To me it's just trying to build some semblance of a respectable city center. Not saying the stadium would have done that all by itself. 4) I left Buffalo not too long after college, came back briefly then left again, but I am 100% for a stadium downtown. My personal preference would have been a dome downtown. Second choice was open air downtown. We got my third choice, so I’ll just have to live with that. The Bills will remain in WNY, and that was my ultimate goal. Period. I come to town for one game a year on average. It would be awesome to have a downtown stadium I could walk to from my hotel like you can in cities like Nashville, Cincinnati, etc. Walk around, hit the restaurants and bars, stroll over to the stadium, perfect. That would be better for me personally, but I’m short about a billion in the effort to make that happen. It sounds a bit like you still think there is a chance that this is open for discussion, but I think it’s a done deal with just a few details to iron out. For those who didn’t get exactly what you wanted, I suggest focusing on our Bills remaining in WNY, and without fecal rivers in the concourses. 1
Jrb1979 Posted March 19, 2023 Posted March 19, 2023 4 minutes ago, Augie said: My personal preference would have been a dome downtown. Second choice was open air downtown. We got my third choice, so I’ll just have to live with that. The Bills will remain in WNY, and that was my ultimate goal. Period. I come to town for one game a year on average. It would be awesome to have a downtown stadium I could walk to from my hotel like you can in cities like Nashville, Cincinnati, etc. Walk around, hit the restaurants and bars, stroll over to the stadium, perfect. That would be better for me personally, but I’m short about a billion in the effort to make that happen. It sounds a bit like you still think there is a chance that this is open for discussion, but I think it’s a done deal with just a few details to iron out. For those who didn’t get exactly what you wanted, I suggest focusing on our Bills remaining in WNY, and without fecal rivers in the concourses. Since I didn't get a downtown domed stadium my focus is on the amenities that the new stadium will have. For me personally location is not a deal breaker as much as the new stadium having similar amenities to what other new stadiums have. If all they do is basically just update at Highmark stadium has then that's a deal breaker. 1
Augie Posted March 19, 2023 Posted March 19, 2023 34 minutes ago, Jrb1979 said: Since I didn't get a downtown domed stadium my focus is on the amenities that the new stadium will have. For me personally location is not a deal breaker as much as the new stadium having similar amenities to what other new stadiums have. If all they do is basically just update at Highmark stadium has then that's a deal breaker. Deal breaker? Will you be done? Forever? Some people are like that. 🤷♂️ I go to games for the football and the tailgate. I don’t need a museum or arcades like they have in some places. To each their own. I will not have any angst over this until we see the final product. I was fine at the old place, so I’ll be fine at the new place. Just WIN! 3
Jrb1979 Posted March 19, 2023 Posted March 19, 2023 6 minutes ago, Augie said: Deal breaker? Will you be done? Forever? Some people are like that. 🤷♂️ I go to games for the football and the tailgate. I don’t need a museum or arcades like they have in some places. To each their own. I will not have any angst over this until we see the final product. I was fine at the old place, so I’ll be fine at the new place. Just WIN! I will go to check out the new stadium but if it's just an improved version of Highmark then I will most likely just stay home instead. For me personally, the game itself isn't enough to draw me to any stadium now. At one time it was. Now with the cost of going to a game and the fact I can watch it home with a better view it's hard to justify going.
Augie Posted March 19, 2023 Posted March 19, 2023 11 minutes ago, Jrb1979 said: I will go to check out the new stadium but if it's just an improved version of Highmark then I will most likely just stay home instead. For me personally, the game itself isn't enough to draw me to any stadium now. At one time it was. Now with the cost of going to a game and the fact I can watch it home with a better view it's hard to justify going. I enjoy attending a home game, preferably the opener, and one road game a year. The at home HD experience is amazing, so I get wanting to enjoy it that way. It’s comfortable, cheap and easy. But I don’t go for the stadium or the amenities. I go to see friends at the tailgate and feel that energy you can only get live. If I were local I still probably wouldn’t be a season ticket holder. It wouldn’t be a financial thing, I just don’t want to do it all season long. That’s a personal decision everyone gets to make. I go for the energy, the live football and the camaraderie. How much you value that vs the convenience of home is a great decision to be able to make. To each their own, as long as they remain in WNY. If they left, I would be done. 1
mrags Posted March 19, 2023 Posted March 19, 2023 1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said: ATT is booked for "big events" only 10 nights between now and October. 8 More than the 2 that Highmark might have in the sane timeframe. Just saying
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