SoCal Deek Posted April 15, 2022 Posted April 15, 2022 36 minutes ago, BillsFan4 said: I totally get that they could move the team and make a LOT more money in a bigger market, and I definitely appreciate that they kept the team here. and I like the Pegulas as owners. They’ve done a lot for Buffalo and spent a lot of their own money on the Bills/Sabres in order to try and win + make Buffalo more of a destination. I still think we are lucky to have them. Even the Sabres! 😂 Again, I just don’t like PSL’s. For any team. I’ve thought they were somewhat of a scam ever since they were introduced. Now, if they were optional as a way to get more perks, that would be different. But as they work now, I think they are kind of preying on passionate sports fans. They know they have a monopoly and they take advantage of that. I think it’s kind of BS that NY is going to own the stadium, being built mostly with taxpayer dollars, yet NY residents can’t buy the same season tickets they used to without paying this large fee directly to the Pegulas (who don’t even own the stadium). I guess I just feel that fans kind of already paid for the right to buy tickets to the stadium they are mostly funding. And I also feel like you’re already paying for the right to that seat when you buy season tickets. anyway… I don’t want it to sound like I’m not happy about this new stadium, because I am. I’m very happy the Bills will be in Buffalo probably for the rest of my life now (or most of it). These are complicated Finance discussions to have on a message board. But in short, the PSLs aren’t paying back the taxpayer portion of the funding. If they were, they’d be a LOT larger. The PSL charge only pays back the Team’s portion. In some way or fashion the cost of the new stadium has to be recouped. It’s not pretty but it’s how things work. 1
Mr. WEO Posted April 15, 2022 Posted April 15, 2022 1 hour ago, SoCal Deek said: Huh? Why would the Pegulas want to treat you to a football stadium? Why would the owner of any business? This is just silly talk. Now…if you’re desperate to go to a football game for cheaper prices you might want to request that preseason games be reduced admission (I’ve always been in favor of that). Or, maybe you can attend UB games, or CFL, or the local high school, or junior college. Why would a business owner want to build (or at least significantly contribute the building of) the facility that will house his business? You're right--that would just be silly. Business owner just do not build buildings. Anyway, that silly question aside....the Pegula's aren't treating me or anyone else to a stadium (hence, this thread). The topic of this discussion is should they not soak the season ticket holders for the balance of their portion of the "privately funded" construction costs. They certainly don't need to. After the state, county and NFL/G4 contributions, they are on the hook for about $350 million. They can swing that easily and it is a small amount to pay for the financial benefits they (alone) will reap from the new stadium. It would be a hardship for many season ticket holders 1
BillsFan4 Posted April 15, 2022 Posted April 15, 2022 (edited) 18 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said: These are complicated Finance discussions to have on a message board. But in short, the PSLs aren’t paying back the taxpayer portion of the funding. If they were, they’d be a LOT larger. The PSL charge only pays back the Team’s portion. In some way or fashion the cost of the new stadium has to be recouped. It’s not pretty but it’s how things work. I think you misunderstood me. I know PSLs pay back the Pegulas portion of the money. That’s my whole issue with it. I was saying that taxpayers are already contributing $850 million. They should not have to contribute another $50+ million in PSL fees to help pay for the Pegulas small portion of the stadium funding (well, small relative to the overall cost). Taxpayers are already footing enough of the cost. And they’ll foot even more of it with the increased prices they pay for everything at the new stadium (tickets, parking, concessions, etc). Edited April 15, 2022 by BillsFan4
SoCal Deek Posted April 15, 2022 Posted April 15, 2022 56 minutes ago, BillsFan4 said: I think you misunderstood me. I know PSLs pay back the Pegulas portion of the money. That’s my whole issue with it. I was saying that taxpayers are already contributing $850 million. They should not have to contribute another $50+ million in PSL fees to help pay for the Pegulas small portion of the stadium funding (well, small relative to the overall cost). Taxpayers are already footing enough of the cost. And they’ll foot even more of it with the increased prices they pay for everything at the new stadium (tickets, parking, concessions, etc). We’re clearly at an impasse. The Team is going to get paid back for their investment one way or the other. It’s an investment….not a gift to the fans. Go Bills 1
Mr Info Posted April 15, 2022 Posted April 15, 2022 1 hour ago, BillsFan4 said: I think you misunderstood me. I know PSLs pay back the Pegulas portion of the money. That’s my whole issue with it. I was saying that taxpayers are already contributing $850 million. They should not have to contribute another $50+ million in PSL fees to help pay for the Pegulas small portion of the stadium funding (well, small relative to the overall cost). Taxpayers are already footing enough of the cost. And they’ll foot even more of it with the increased prices they pay for everything at the new stadium (tickets, parking, concessions, etc). I will state what I stated recently upthread. The Bills are already charging a PSL of ~60% of ticket price for club seat holders. It is listed as that on the invoice. PSL cost will be new only for non-club seat holders. But PSL cost is not deterring demand for current club seats. Demand has increased as the team has improved. PSL cost will increase for club seat holders in the new stadium. Do not purchase if you cannot afford that additional expense. Sure, it can be considered greedy by the owners but as the owner you can charge whatever additional fees you would like until consumers no longer are willing to pay that much. This is entertainment…not a necessity. 2
BillsFan4 Posted April 15, 2022 Posted April 15, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Mr Info said: I will state what I stated recently upthread. The Bills are already charging a PSL of ~60% of ticket price for club seat holders. It is listed as that on the invoice. PSL cost will be new only for non-club seat holders. But PSL cost is not deterring demand for current club seats. Demand has increased as the team has improved. PSL cost will increase for club seat holders in the new stadium. Do not purchase if you cannot afford that additional expense. Sure, it can be considered greedy by the owners but as the owner you can charge whatever additional fees you would like until consumers no longer are willing to pay that much. This is entertainment…not a necessity. Are you sure? I can’t find anything showing that they already charge PSL’s, and every article I’ve read states it’s a new thing. https://www.wgrz.com/article/sports/nfl/future-of-the-bills/what-are-psls-personal-seat-license-and-what-does-that-mean-to-bills-fans-nfl-buffalo/71-aef57364-757f-4153-af79-2838d5112b7c Quote While PSLs are new to Bills fans, 20 of the 32 NFL teams currently have some form of a personal seat license. Seating licenses are supposed to be a one time up front fee that you pay before you can purchase season tickets and then you “own” the license as long as you keep buying season tickets each year. You can also resell the license. Here is the company that sells/handles PSA’s for most pro teams: https://www.pslsource.com/buy_nfl_psl i don’t see any option to buy/sell Buffalo Bills PSL’s. Here are the other sites where you can buy/sell PSL’s: https://www.strmarketplace.com http://www.seatdibs.com/Buy-A-PSL-Seat-License.html The Bills aren’t listed on any of them. Here is a list of all teams with PSL fees: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_seat_license#National_Football_League Edited April 15, 2022 by BillsFan4 1
Mr Info Posted April 15, 2022 Posted April 15, 2022 26 minutes ago, BillsFan4 said: Are you sure? I can’t find anything showing that they already charge PSL’s, and every article I’ve read states it’s a new thing. https://www.wgrz.com/article/sports/nfl/future-of-the-bills/what-are-psls-personal-seat-license-and-what-does-that-mean-to-bills-fans-nfl-buffalo/71-aef57364-757f-4153-af79-2838d5112b7c Seating licenses are supposed to be a one time up front fee that you pay before you can purchase season tickets and then you “own” the license as long as you keep buying season tickets each year. You can also resell the license. Here is the company that sells/handles PSA’s for most pro teams: https://www.pslsource.com/buy_nfl_psl i don’t see any option to buy/sell Buffalo Bills PSL’s. Here are the other sites where you can buy/sell PSL’s: https://www.strmarketplace.com http://www.seatdibs.com/Buy-A-PSL-Seat-License.html The Bills aren’t listed on any of them. Here is a list of all teams with PSL fees: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_seat_license#National_Football_League On the invoice it says “Club License Fee” which is in addition to the ticket fee. Perhaps that may be for season ticket holder’s use of the club area. Though you are still responsible for your beverage and food purchases. Perhaps club seat holders will receive another Seat License Fee besides the Club License Fee in the new stadium.
Rochesterfan Posted April 15, 2022 Posted April 15, 2022 4 hours ago, BillsFan4 said: I think you misunderstood me. I know PSLs pay back the Pegulas portion of the money. That’s my whole issue with it. I was saying that taxpayers are already contributing $850 million. They should not have to contribute another $50+ million in PSL fees to help pay for the Pegulas small portion of the stadium funding (well, small relative to the overall cost). Taxpayers are already footing enough of the cost. And they’ll foot even more of it with the increased prices they pay for everything at the new stadium (tickets, parking, concessions, etc). The taxpayers are contributing 850 million with the expectations being that the State is going to collect enough money via fees associated with parking, tickets, food, and the lease to the Bills to play in the stadium to pay back the 850 million loan in 24 years. The Pegula’s are not paying upfront, but over time with the lease. The Pegula’s are doing the same thing - they are asking the users to help pay for the stadium that you are using. The Pegula’s are leasing the stadium - just as most businesses lease their buildings - they then have to recoup that cost. The PSLs are a way to recoup some of the cost that stay in Buffalo. The difference is if the Pegulas do not charge a PSL - then they have to hike the cost of a seat significantly to cover the cost of the lease and actually have to increase it higher because the seating is not given to the home team it is split revenue with the visiting team. Therefore with the PSLs - the Pegulas can actually allow the ticket prices to be lower than needed to recoup because the PSLs go directly to them unshared. No matter how you want to do it - you going to the game will be covering the cost. The PSLs keep more money with the local owner - higher ticket prices gives more revenue elsewhere. 1 hour ago, BillsFan4 said: Are you sure? I can’t find anything showing that they already charge PSL’s, and every article I’ve read states it’s a new thing. https://www.wgrz.com/article/sports/nfl/future-of-the-bills/what-are-psls-personal-seat-license-and-what-does-that-mean-to-bills-fans-nfl-buffalo/71-aef57364-757f-4153-af79-2838d5112b7c Seating licenses are supposed to be a one time up front fee that you pay before you can purchase season tickets and then you “own” the license as long as you keep buying season tickets each year. You can also resell the license. Here is the company that sells/handles PSA’s for most pro teams: https://www.pslsource.com/buy_nfl_psl i don’t see any option to buy/sell Buffalo Bills PSL’s. Here are the other sites where you can buy/sell PSL’s: https://www.strmarketplace.com http://www.seatdibs.com/Buy-A-PSL-Seat-License.html The Bills aren’t listed on any of them. Here is a list of all teams with PSL fees: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_seat_license#National_Football_League It is a fee - they charge it outside of the ticket price so the money is not part of the shared revenue. Either way by definition it is a PSL - a set amount charged to season ticket holders in addition to the cost of the seat for the right to purchase that seat. I believe the current phrasing is club seat license and fans have talked about it for years. The concept is not new to Buffalo - the process of an essentially 30 year ownership of the seat is a new concept.
SoCal Deek Posted April 15, 2022 Posted April 15, 2022 I literally have no idea what some of you are talking about on here anymore. Let make it really simple. Private individuals and corporations expect a return on an investment. Government, on the other hand, doesn't invest....it spends. Neither one is bad. It's just how our system works. Quote 1 1
LabattBlue Posted April 19, 2022 Posted April 19, 2022 Article about stadium PLA... https://buffalonews.com/business/local/some-contractors-feel-left-out-of-deal-for-bills-stadium-construction/article_70a41db4-bc2d-11ec-b75d-97c14276c808.html#tracking-source=home-top-story
Doc Posted April 19, 2022 Posted April 19, 2022 1 hour ago, BTB said: Article about stadium PLA... https://buffalonews.com/business/local/some-contractors-feel-left-out-of-deal-for-bills-stadium-construction/article_70a41db4-bc2d-11ec-b75d-97c14276c808.html#tracking-source=home-top-story Nonunion contractors are SOL.
ALF Posted April 19, 2022 Posted April 19, 2022 Non union should be able to bid if they agree to prevailing wage if that is required I would think.
LabattBlue Posted April 19, 2022 Posted April 19, 2022 58 minutes ago, ALF said: Non union should be able to bid if they agree to prevailing wage if that is required I would think. They will be, but will claim they can't afford to. 1
Tenhigh Posted April 19, 2022 Posted April 19, 2022 2 hours ago, BTB said: They will be, but will claim they can't afford to. Why would they lie about it?
SoCal Deek Posted April 19, 2022 Posted April 19, 2022 6 hours ago, BTB said: Article about stadium PLA... https://buffalonews.com/business/local/some-contractors-feel-left-out-of-deal-for-bills-stadium-construction/article_70a41db4-bc2d-11ec-b75d-97c14276c808.html#tracking-source=home-top-story I cannot speak to all of the details of how a PLA works in NY but here in California it's widely understood to add between 10 and 20% to the construction cost of a public project. Given the large amount of taxpayer funding, this would not be a good thing on the new stadium. You essentially will be getting less stadium for the same amount of money.
eball Posted April 19, 2022 Posted April 19, 2022 I CAN'T WAIT FOR THE FRIGGIN' DRAWINGS!!!!! (sorry, had to get that out) 1 1
LabattBlue Posted April 19, 2022 Posted April 19, 2022 2 hours ago, Tenhigh said: Why would they lie about it? I didn’t say they would be lying.
Doc Posted April 19, 2022 Posted April 19, 2022 19 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said: I cannot speak to all of the details of how a PLA works in NY but here in California it's widely understood to add between 10 and 20% to the construction cost of a public project. Given the large amount of taxpayer funding, this would not be a good thing on the new stadium. You essentially will be getting less stadium for the same amount of money. I figured that the PLA was already factored-into the cost. And the Pegulas I believe are on the hook for any cost overruns.
LeGOATski Posted April 19, 2022 Posted April 19, 2022 17 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said: I cannot speak to all of the details of how a PLA works in NY but here in California it's widely understood to add between 10 and 20% to the construction cost of a public project. Given the large amount of taxpayer funding, this would not be a good thing on the new stadium. You essentially will be getting less stadium for the same amount of money. Can't blame them for doing what's worked for them in the past. I'm not saying you are, but generally to this topic, people can't promote the stadium as "benefitting the local economy" and then turn around to criticize the Pegulas/government for ensuring that the jobs go to local workers.
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