TheFunPolice Posted April 5, 2022 Posted April 5, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said: There's a difference between paying a relatively small amount out of pocket and "financing it themselves", right? So why bring that into your argument? We are talking about paying proportionally more for a building that they will essentially be the only tenant in---and which is ONLY being constructed so that the Pegulas (and, less so, the other owners) can make some more money. Every team that will be sold will be sold for the highest amount ever. So what? LV put up the second highest public funding for a stadium ($750 million), but the Raider still had to put up 1.1 billion. PSE will skate by with a couple hundred million. People here are moaning about the stadiums downstate, but if they were serious, they would be calling for Erie County, not the State, to be putting up the bulk of the public funding (say...600 million), as that was the model for the Yankees, Mets, etc. Let the locals, the ones who, besides the Pegulas, get the benefit from the asset pay for the asset. We didn't "moan about" downstate stadiums because most of us didn't even notice, and it took research to even find the numbers. That's kind of the point. We go to work and pay our taxes and most of us don't have time to monitor the state budget. Either way we are going to pay X amount as individual taxpayers. If the team stays we pay X, and if they leave we pay X. X doesn't change either way. We don't all get a discount if the team leaves. We don't pay extra if it stays. Most of the state $$ is coming from the Seneca casinos in WNY, BTW. Instead, "it will be a shame" and we lose an iconic part of life in WNY. At least people will feel really, really bad for us though! Maybe 3 "reallys" depending. Except Florio, he will be in heaven. I would bet he already has that article written and ready to go. Edited April 5, 2022 by TheFunPolice 2
nucci Posted April 5, 2022 Posted April 5, 2022 2 minutes ago, TheFunPolice said: We didn't "moan about" downstate stadiums because most of us didn't even notice, and it took research to even find the numbers. That's kind of the point. We go to work and pay our taxes and most of us don't have time to monitor the state budget. Either way we are going to pay X amount as individual taxpayers. If the team stays we pay X, and if they leave we pay X. X doesn't change either way. We don't all get a discount if the team leaves. We don't pay extra if it stays. Most of the state $$ is coming from the Seneca casinos in WNY, BTW. Instead, "it will be a shame" and we lose an iconic part of life in WNY. At least people will feel really, really bad for us though! Maybe 3 "reallys" depending. Except Florio, he will be in heaven. https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/fd7b42c7-36b5-4aef-b967-d5a88153ff1c
TheFunPolice Posted April 5, 2022 Posted April 5, 2022 1 minute ago, nucci said: https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/fd7b42c7-36b5-4aef-b967-d5a88153ff1c Didn't click because the URL looks suspicious. Summary?
nucci Posted April 5, 2022 Posted April 5, 2022 Just now, TheFunPolice said: Didn't click because the URL looks suspicious. Summary? it's legit, quote from "The Jerk" about X amount
TheFunPolice Posted April 5, 2022 Posted April 5, 2022 Just now, nucci said: it's legit, quote from "The Jerk" about X amount LOL Sorry I'm just overly cautious!
nucci Posted April 5, 2022 Posted April 5, 2022 9 minutes ago, TheFunPolice said: LOL Sorry I'm just overly cautious! that's ok, I understand
Mr. WEO Posted April 5, 2022 Posted April 5, 2022 35 minutes ago, TheFunPolice said: We didn't "moan about" downstate stadiums because most of us didn't even notice, and it took research to even find the numbers. That's kind of the point. We go to work and pay our taxes and most of us don't have time to monitor the state budget. Either way we are going to pay X amount as individual taxpayers. If the team stays we pay X, and if they leave we pay X. X doesn't change either way. We don't all get a discount if the team leaves. We don't pay extra if it stays. Most of the state $$ is coming from the Seneca casinos in WNY, BTW. Instead, "it will be a shame" and we lose an iconic part of life in WNY. At least people will feel really, really bad for us though! Maybe 3 "reallys" depending. Except Florio, he will be in heaven. I would bet he already has that article written and ready to go. Scroll back... It's not about getting "a discount" as a taxpayer (but it would be nice to get that back in smaller taxes, such as on gasoline); it's about better ways to spend the money. Using it to pay off a billionaire so he doesn't move his sports team should be way down on the list. Or let Buffalo pay for it. 1
LeGOATski Posted April 5, 2022 Posted April 5, 2022 1 hour ago, SoCal Deek said: Populous, the design architects, are generally best known for more contemporary designs...as opposed to historically referenced...like those in Indy, or Seattle, or Baltimore's Camden Yards (which started the whole historic reference stadium-craze for baseball). So, I'm guessing they'll continue that 'look' with the new Bills Stadium. A little while back I posted some pictures I took of Tottenham, which is very contemporary, even though it sits in a residential neighborhood that reminded me of old WNY. They put a big gold rooster on the top. That type of stuff.
SoCal Deek Posted April 5, 2022 Posted April 5, 2022 17 minutes ago, LeGOATski said: They put a big gold rooster on the top. That type of stuff. Denver has a big horse. ....and...??? 1
Rochesterfan Posted April 5, 2022 Posted April 5, 2022 4 hours ago, Mr. WEO said: This isn't a serious belief or statement. People can disagree with the amount of the funding without "actively working to torpedo the deal" resulting in the Bills leaving WNY. That's certainly what PSE wants you to say. Perhaps people who object to the amount just wanted more from Pegula, instead of the most generous public contribution to any NFL stadium in the history of the US. Pretty simple. The public knows he can afford more toward the construction. Those who object can rightly conclude that the state didn't really play hardball with this extremely generous deal. If this was an item on a public ballot, there's no chance it would pass. Again this is only a partial truth - the money being proposed for this stadium is still significantly less than the public contributions to build and house MetLife stadium, Yankees Stadium, Barclays Center, etc. The money proposed is just being funded differently. Compared to the funds given to the Yankees - that are worth significantly more than the Bills - the money provided by the state is a tiny fraction. If any of those stadiums had been on a public ballot - they would of failed and the outcome would end up the same as Cleveland, Baltimore, St. Louis, and San Diego - where teams left and then the cities decided they could fund stadiums and teams came back once the cities put up the money. 1 1 1
TheFunPolice Posted April 5, 2022 Posted April 5, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, Mr. WEO said: Scroll back... It's not about getting "a discount" as a taxpayer (but it would be nice to get that back in smaller taxes, such as on gasoline); it's about better ways to spend the money. Using it to pay off a billionaire so he doesn't move his sports team should be way down on the list. Or let Buffalo pay for it. 100%, the money could be better spent in an ideal world. No argument there. Subsidizing these stadiums feels a bit gross. We're not LA or NYC. Most NFL cities aren't. But the competition for a "free agent" NFL team would be insane, and "you're rich so you build it yourself" wouldn't seal the Bills staying here. That can work in LA because LA is LA. The money grows on trees for Kroenke in that market due to its sheer size and wealth. The economics of WNY dictate a much bigger public investment in keeping the team. We all know this. Due to the lease expiring, WNY is competing against other cities that want an NFL team. That's why I say it and still say it: if you're against this deal then you are in favor of the Bills moving. They don't stay for less, and they don't stay in their current stadium. It's just not going to happen, even if we write books of totally solid arguments for it. In a way, WNY is paying for it via the Seneca casino revenues that are being used to cover most of the state's portion. Edited April 5, 2022 by TheFunPolice 2 6
LeGOATski Posted April 5, 2022 Posted April 5, 2022 1 hour ago, SoCal Deek said: Denver has a big horse. ....and...??? Bills are getting a big Buffalo 1
SoCal Deek Posted April 5, 2022 Posted April 5, 2022 23 minutes ago, LeGOATski said: Bills are getting a big Buffalo Excellent…some on here would prefer a large chicken wing. 😉
Mr. WEO Posted April 5, 2022 Posted April 5, 2022 1 hour ago, Rochesterfan said: Again this is only a partial truth - the money being proposed for this stadium is still significantly less than the public contributions to build and house MetLife stadium, Yankees Stadium, Barclays Center, etc. The money proposed is just being funded differently. Compared to the funds given to the Yankees - that are worth significantly more than the Bills - the money provided by the state is a tiny fraction. If any of those stadiums had been on a public ballot - they would of failed and the outcome would end up the same as Cleveland, Baltimore, St. Louis, and San Diego - where teams left and then the cities decided they could fund stadiums and teams came back once the cities put up the money. Again, this is incorrect. I'm not going to repost the article (one of several easily found via google) that spells out the NYS contribution to each of these stadiums. The majority of "public money came through federal and NYC tax exempt bonds. State cash was a small fraction. For Yankee stadium it was "$115 million, including $61 million for parking garages, $32 million in construction and mortgage recording tax savings and $4 million capital replacement reserves." And Metlife was built on land owned by NJ and as they did put millions into improved area infrastructure, including highway work (which benefits anyone who has to drive in the area), that stave's real contribution was giving up parking and concession revenue. NYS and Erie are putting up $850 million for construction, plus another 160 million for maintenance and periodic improvements. 1.1 billion. You can keep saying what you're saying, but that won't make it less incorrect or more convincing. 50 minutes ago, TheFunPolice said: 100%, the money could be better spent in an ideal world. No argument there. Subsidizing these stadiums feels a bit gross. We're not LA or NYC. Most NFL cities aren't. But the competition for a "free agent" NFL team would be insane, and "you're rich so you build it yourself" wouldn't seal the Bills staying here. That can work in LA because LA is LA. The money grows on trees for Kroenke in that market due to its sheer size and wealth. The economics of WNY dictate a much bigger public investment in keeping the team. We all know this. Due to the lease expiring, WNY is competing against other cities that want an NFL team. That's why I say it and still say it: if you're against this deal then you are in favor of the Bills moving. They don't stay for less, and they don't stay in their current stadium. It's just not going to happen, even if we write books of totally solid arguments for it. In a way, WNY is paying for it via the Seneca casino revenues that are being used to cover most of the state's portion. If NFL money "grows on trees" in LA, why in the almost 30 years since there was a team there, despite the fact that 2 teams have moved and 2 more have been created--- none of them moved to or began in LA? Wouldn't any billionaire owner want to pluck the all that money growing on all those trees? It was there for taking, yet none of them wanted all that money? The Seneca settlement is between a sovereign tribal government. WNY has zero to do with that.
Rochesterfan Posted April 5, 2022 Posted April 5, 2022 23 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: Again, this is incorrect. I'm not going to repost the article (one of several easily found via google) that spells out the NYS contribution to each of these stadiums. The majority of "public money came through federal and NYC tax exempt bonds. State cash was a small fraction. For Yankee stadium it was "$115 million, including $61 million for parking garages, $32 million in construction and mortgage recording tax savings and $4 million capital replacement reserves." And Metlife was built on land owned by NJ and as they did put millions into improved area infrastructure, including highway work (which benefits anyone who has to drive in the area), that stave's real contribution was giving up parking and concession revenue. NYS and Erie are putting up $850 million for construction, plus another 160 million for maintenance and periodic improvements. 1.1 billion. You can keep saying what you're saying, but that won't make it less incorrect or more convincing. If NFL money "grows on trees" in LA, why in the almost 30 years since there was a team there, despite the fact that 2 teams have moved and 2 more have been created--- none of them moved to or began in LA? Wouldn't any billionaire owner want to pluck the all that money growing on all those trees? It was there for taking, yet none of them wanted all that money? The Seneca settlement is between a sovereign tribal government. WNY has zero to do with that. Yes, but you are stating Public money. It is the biggest expenditure of state money, but it is not the biggest public funding by a long shot. The NYT put out an article talking about the Number of seats in stadiums in and surrounding NYC and the amount of public money just tied to tax breaks alone that pull money from city and state coffers. So did the State provide the immediate funds - No, but that is just the lazy way to look at the financial aspect. If the State and the municipalities around NYC provide nearly 2 billion in tax breaks - that is exactly the same money being used - just filed in a different slot. Would it make you happier if the Pegula’s built the Stadium, but then got 2 Billion in breaks and funding? As PSE stated before - there were options, but this cost the State less in the long run than giving tax breaks free land - additionally it provides the state with a limited revenue stream to add fees to to have the users payback at least a portion of the money over the investment period via ticket and parking payments. People are complaining because lazy arguments get made about how it should be funded, but the truth lies someplace in the middle once you look at other deals made. Public money comes in many forms and the amount being spent by the state and county is a fraction of amount spent on other projects - it is just being spent upfront and the amount is more fixed. 1 3 2
Rochesterfan Posted April 5, 2022 Posted April 5, 2022 42 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: Again, this is incorrect. I'm not going to repost the article (one of several easily found via google) that spells out the NYS contribution to each of these stadiums. The majority of "public money came through federal and NYC tax exempt bonds. State cash was a small fraction. For Yankee stadium it was "$115 million, including $61 million for parking garages, $32 million in construction and mortgage recording tax savings and $4 million capital replacement reserves." And Metlife was built on land owned by NJ and as they did put millions into improved area infrastructure, including highway work (which benefits anyone who has to drive in the area), that stave's real contribution was giving up parking and concession revenue. NYS and Erie are putting up $850 million for construction, plus another 160 million for maintenance and periodic improvements. 1.1 billion. You can keep saying what you're saying, but that won't make it less incorrect or more convincing. If NFL money "grows on trees" in LA, why in the almost 30 years since there was a team there, despite the fact that 2 teams have moved and 2 more have been created--- none of them moved to or began in LA? Wouldn't any billionaire owner want to pluck the all that money growing on all those trees? It was there for taking, yet none of them wanted all that money? The Seneca settlement is between a sovereign tribal government. WNY has zero to do with that. Yankee Stadium is still a much bigger cost to the public. The stadium cost 1.5 Billion to construct and most articles peg the Yankees at putting in 670 million. That leaves 800 million in construction costs alone. Overall 1.2 Billion of construction and infrastructure cost was covered by public funding - some of that via tax free loans, but it was picked up via State and County funding. Yes the state was a smaller amount that the new Bills stadium, but it is all still public funding that ends up getting spread out from other state funding.
Mr. WEO Posted April 5, 2022 Posted April 5, 2022 15 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said: Yes, but you are stating Public money. It is the biggest expenditure of state money, but it is not the biggest public funding by a long shot. The NYT put out an article talking about the Number of seats in stadiums in and surrounding NYC and the amount of public money just tied to tax breaks alone that pull money from city and state coffers. So did the State provide the immediate funds - No, but that is just the lazy way to look at the financial aspect. If the State and the municipalities around NYC provide nearly 2 billion in tax breaks - that is exactly the same money being used - just filed in a different slot. Would it make you happier if the Pegula’s built the Stadium, but then got 2 Billion in breaks and funding? As PSE stated before - there were options, but this cost the State less in the long run than giving tax breaks free land - additionally it provides the state with a limited revenue stream to add fees to to have the users payback at least a portion of the money over the investment period via ticket and parking payments. People are complaining because lazy arguments get made about how it should be funded, but the truth lies someplace in the middle once you look at other deals made. Public money comes in many forms and the amount being spent by the state and county is a fraction of amount spent on other projects - it is just being spent upfront and the amount is more fixed. I don’t know how else to make it simpler for you. NYC money and federal bonds funded the vast majority of those public commitments, not the state. The states contribution to Yankee stadium was 115 million, no more. If Erie county was putting up 600 million instead of NYS , your argument might have some cogency. But they aren’t, so your yankee stadium is absolutely nothing like the cash being handed to the Bills stadium. Nor was the MetLife financing remotely akin to PSE building the stadium and getting it all back in “breaks”. You’re making this up. I can’t argue against fabricated facts. Good luck 2 1
Old Coot Posted April 6, 2022 Posted April 6, 2022 With all the bitching about its cost, I thought I'd post an artist's rendition of the new $1.4 billion stadium. Corporate suites in the white building on the right 1
Lost Posted April 6, 2022 Posted April 6, 2022 5 hours ago, Mr. WEO said: Scroll back... It's not about getting "a discount" as a taxpayer (but it would be nice to get that back in smaller taxes, such as on gasoline); it's about better ways to spend the money. Using it to pay off a billionaire so he doesn't move his sports team should be way down on the list. Or let Buffalo pay for it. Why do you hate the Pegulas so much?
PromoTheRobot Posted April 6, 2022 Posted April 6, 2022 15 minutes ago, Lost said: Why do you hate the Pegulas so much? The Bills leaving is one of WEO's ultimate fantasies. 2 1
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