Josh Allen’s bad two years

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

12 hours ago, billvernsays said:

The media loves talking about how much better Josh Allen is now compared to his 1st 2 years, like it came outta nowhere and in my opinion that’s simply lazy on their part.

its called a learning curve on a team depleted of offensive talent 

 

if people don’t see that then they are idiots 

 

[Orlando Buffalo]

I will admit that I thought his progress would be slower, though in my defense I thought the team around him was much better than it was in 2018. I did not see him as special until the first dolphin game when he threw the game winner to Charles Clay perfectly, who then dropped it. It was at that point I knew he was gonna be fun to watch. In his second year it was the Pitt game were I knew he was gonna be special when he threw the dagger to Brown right after they played "Renegade". 

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

Josh was great with what he had to work with.  Fans use the ‘josh Allen theorem’ to explain why they should keep their mediocre young qbs around way too long but it is almost always falsely applied because it doesn’t account for how absolutely trash that bills roster was.  Our ‘receivers’ were first in the league in drops and last in the league in separation.  The dude still made Robert foster look like an all pro 

[SoTier]

41 minutes ago, dhgold said:

I remember JA's year two as a mixed bag, showing considerable improvement from year one but still quite lacking as far as precision, consistency and poise. I loved his leadership and intangibles and the fact that he got the heretofore suck-ass Bills to the playoffs but at the end of the season I was on the fence as to whether he was the long term answer. 

 

Sometime around the end of the 2019 regular season (JA's year 2), I had a conversation with a relative who'd recently played in the NFL at a pro-bowl level and who spent a good part of his retirement watching the league. I asked him what he thought of Josh and he said "dude can't play". I tried to defend Josh on the basis of intangibles and improvement while acknowledging he still had much room for improvement, but my relative wasn't buying it. (At the end of Josh's year three, the same relative considered him an elite NFL QB.)

 

The only person I can think of who was convinced JA was the answer after year was Adam Schein.

 

I think your relative was voicing a very common opinion, especially by professionals.   Allen was so far behind the QBs taken before him in 2018 that even the great strides he made in 2019 just made him somewhat "above average".  He was still being dismissed coming into 2020.   There were even some at the beginning of last season who were convinced that he would "regress" in 2021.   What's Allen's done is really remarkable. 

[Chandler#81]

13 hours ago, mrags said:

I knew Josh was the QB I wanted before the draft. The only other QB I had any interest in, was Mayfield. Which I think got a crap deal in Cleveland. His coaching has been terrible. Story of Cleveland’s life. 
 

With all that said, the Minnesota game is what sealed it for me that he was going to be special. Not just the hurdle. But the scramble and dive to the corner of the end zone. At that point you could just see that he would do anything to win. Anything to carry the team on his back. And he hasn’t disappointed. I actually feel bad for him that he’s been let down by his defense at times and coaching at times. Josh will go down as one of the best to ever play this game when all is said and done. 

Mayfield is a crap deal. His own worst enemy and that’s not gonna change.

Allen, on the other hand, is GOD!

[DabillsDaBillsDaBills]

3 hours ago, TheBrownBear said:

Sorry, but you're wrong.  Given the roster, he was absolutely NOT TERRIBLE in his final six starts of his rookie season.  He put up 13 TDs, averaged 287 ypg and went 3-3 during that season ending stretch with Robert Foster and Zay Jones as his receivers.  (And it would have been a 4-2 record if Clay doesn't drop that gimme at the goal line in Miami).  It wasn't revisionist history or us just relying on the "eyeball test", his stats back up the claim that he was improving and actually fairly good by the end of his rookie year.  Yes, there were still hero ball moments and the accuracy wasn't the best, but, assuming your viewing wasn't colored by a pre-existing agenda, you could clearly see that Josh was going to be a very good player at a minimum.

 

1) I was talking about his rookie season as a whole, not just a 6 game stretch.

2) If we want to cherry pick stats, we can ignore the season finale against Dolphins and then he had 8 TDs in the last 5 games. While an improvement over the first 5 starts prior to the injury that's still nothing to write home about.   

3) In his rookie season Josh had 1 elite game (season finale vs Dolphins), and a number of elite plays scattered throughout the season. I don't think that outweighs the numerous dreadful games (Packers, Titans, Texans, Patriots) or all the rookie mistakes in other games. 

 

I think any objective analysis of his season, as a whole, would show he had a bad year; and that a review of his highlights would show the potential to be an elite QB. 

[BillsFanSD]

7 hours ago, streetkings01 said:

My biggest issue used to be where Allen could throw 10 perfect passes in a row and then throw 1 bad pass and the media and opposing fans would be like “See….see that’s the real Josh Allen right there”…….it definitely used to trigger me!

My son and I used to play "What would people say if Josh Allen had thrown that pass" whenever we were watching non-Bills games.  Certain members of the sports media seem to think that Allen is the only guy to ever throw back across his body or try to drill one into double coverage.

2 hours ago, Utah John said:

I like to compare Allen's attitude to that of other Bills' QBs.  

 

There was a game near the end of Kyle Orton's time here (please don't say that name three times, or he'll come back) when the Bills were down near the end of a game, and Orton had to scramble to the right and get a first down, or the Bills were going to lose.  As this player ran toward the line to gain, two defenders came up to challenge him, and he ran out of bounds short of the line to gain.

 

Put Allen in that situation, and at least one of the defenders will have to make a business decision right there on the spot.

The game against the Bengals early in year 2 was the game that showed me that Allen is one of those guys who simply refuses to lose games.  Now granted, that was not his best game, and they needed a fourth quarter comeback in part because of some of his mistakes.  But that last drive was absolutely clutch.  It also included Knox trucking those guys.

[Buffalo716]

2 hours ago, Utah John said:

I like to compare Allen's attitude to that of other Bills' QBs.  

 

There was a game near the end of Kyle Orton's time here (please don't say that name three times, or he'll come back) when the Bills were down near the end of a game, and Orton had to scramble to the right and get a first down, or the Bills were going to lose.  As this player ran toward the line to gain, two defenders came up to challenge him, and he ran out of bounds short of the line to gain.

 

Put Allen in that situation, and at least one of the defenders will have to make a business decision right there on the spot.

First Everybody brings up that play... 

 

Second, comparing what Josh would do,  to an old Kyle Orton is apples to oranges 

 

Third it was in the second quarter of the Denver broncos game... Plenty of time left on the clock and like three games left in the season

 

Fourth we were only in playoff contention because kyle Orton saved our season 

 

Fifth, if Orton played hero on that play like you wanted.. he gets carted off the field on a stretcher because he got destroyed and our seasons over anyways 

 

He could have went for the first down but the season would probably be over because his old body would be destroyed

 

 

 

 

Edited March 24, 2022 by Buffalo716

[Albany,n.y.]

8 minutes ago, DabillsDaBillsDaBills said:

 

1) I was talking about his rookie season as a whole, not just a 6 game stretch.

2) If we want to cherry pick stats, we can ignore the season finale against Dolphins and then he had 8 TDs in the last 5 games. While an improvement over the first 5 starts prior to the injury that's still nothing to write home about.   

3) In his rookie season Josh had 1 elite game (season finale vs Dolphins), and a number of elite plays scattered throughout the season. I don't think that outweighs the numerous dreadful games (Packers, Titans, Texans, Patriots) or all the rookie mistakes in other games. 

 

I think any objective analysis of his season, as a whole, would show he had a bad year; and that a review of his highlights would show the potential to be an elite QB. 

Once you even mentioned stats you lost me.  I hate opinions backed up by QB stats, because stats don't tell me anything.  Let me tell you what i SAW.  I saw glimpses of brilliance, which is what I look for in a rookie QB.  I saw a team that was devoid of offensive talent that as a rookie, Josh carried to 5 wins in 11 starts and it should have been 6 if Peterman didn't lose the Houston game for him. 5 wins in 11 starts with that team was almost a miracle.  I saw him turn an obscure, undrafted WR, Robert Foster, into an NFL receiver.  No other QB in the league, including Aaron Rodgers, has gotten anything out of Foster.  

 

After his rookie year, that you think was bad, I was so impressed that I made future bets on the 2019 Bills including making the playoffs and cashed every one.  See, I watched him light it up against Miami in his rookie finale & because I'm not a stat slave, it reminded me a lot of another QB who had some rough times as a rookie & then the light came on at the end of his rookie year-Eli Manning.  I still remember the people here in 2006 who didn't see Manning play proclaiming JP Losman was better than him-I told them they were very wrong because when I watched Manning play & watched JP play, Manning was a far superior QB.  I guess the stat boys thought becauuse JP had completed 62.5% of his passes in 2006 & Eli had completed 57.7% that JP was better.  

[Pabstblueribbon]

2 hours ago, Utah John said:

There was a game near the end of Kyle Orton's time here (please don't say that name three times, or he'll come back) when the Bills were down near the end of a game, and Orton had to scramble to the right and get a first down, or the Bills were going to lose.  As this player ran toward the line to gain, two defenders came up to challenge him, and he ran out of bounds short of the line to gain.

 

 

I remember this play. I remembered saying out loud "Fitz would have dove for that". Josh has that same quality. It's been apparent since his rookie year. 

 

 

[Shaw66]

4 hours ago, TheBrownBear said:

There were posters that legitimately believed he would be unseated by JAKE FROMM!!!  LOL.

 

Admittedly, I was a "wrong Josh" guy on draft night, but was over it and on the Allen train by the time the season kicked off.   I was a true believer by the end of his first year and believed it was only a matter of time until he became a star in the league.  Look at the putrid offensive roster in 2018.  He was a one man offense down the stretch of that season and still produced a winning (or was it .500) record after the midway point.

I've said it before.  I thought the Bills had something when Allen hit Ray Ray for a TD against the Panthers as a rookie in preseason.  It's here at around 8:40.  Obviously, he had a lot to learn, but when I saw that throw, I knew the Bills had something.   Four years later, we've seen dozens of throws like that.   We still shake our heads and ask how he did that.

 

[mrags]

2 hours ago, Chandler#81 said:

Mayfield is a crap deal. His own worst enemy and that’s not gonna change.

Allen, on the other hand, is GOD!

Yeah. I pretty much said Allen was a god already. 
 

doesn’t diminish Baker in the least. It Baker is definitely better than what he’s been on the Browns. That organization has screwed him up beyond fixing most likely. 

[Gugny]

2 minutes ago, mrags said:

Yeah. I pretty much said Allen was a god already. 
 

doesn’t diminish Baker in the least. It Baker is definitely better than what he’s been on the Browns. That organization has screwed him up beyond fixing most likely. 

 

I gotta disagree with you on Lil' Baker.

 

I do agree that the Browns are a shitshow.  However, that didn't stop Matt Stafford from putting up 5K yards/year whilst in Detroit.  Sure, the team never won, but Stafford still managed to be what I consider elite.

 

Baker is too small, too slow and too much of a douche to be any good in this league.  I do think he's a starter somewhere, but a bottom tier one at best.

[billvernsays]

11 hours ago, EasternOHBillsFan said:

 

The media? Talk about lazy, blaming the media for stating what has become obvious... he literally did make great strides in his game by working extremely hard and getting great coaching and workouts from people like Jordan Palmer. Even if he would have had a lot better weapons, he still would have had growing pains and would have been making bonehead decisions like any young QB would make. So yeah, ease up on the crusade against the media.

I’m aware. I never said he was a finished product as a rookie. My issue is the narrative that this was such a surprise. That his progress is so incredible considering how BAD he was in the 1st 2 years. They made fun of Buffalo for trading up to draft him at 7 overall, yet it was clear Josh had real talent. That’s what I’m saying. 
 

As many posters have said, because of his work ethic and determination Josh has significantly improved each part of every season but at a very steady pace that was easy to see if you actually watched the games, it didn’t come out of nowhere.  

[BRH]

7 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

First Everybody brings up that play... 

 

Second, comparing what Josh would do,  to an old Kyle Orton is apples to oranges 

 

Third it was in the second quarter of the Denver broncos game... Plenty of time left on the clock and like three games left in the season

 

Fourth we were only in playoff contention because kyle Orton saved our season 

 

Fifth, if Orton played hero on that play like you wanted.. he gets carted off the field on a stretcher because he got destroyed and our seasons over anyways 

 

He could have went for the first down but the season would probably be over because his old body would be destroyed

 

 

 

 

I’m pretty sure he made the decision to retire right then and there.  And for him it was the right decision.  I liked Orton that year.  He gave us everything he had.  

[letsgoteam]

8 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

I've said it before.  I thought the Bills had something when Allen hit Ray Ray for a TD against the Panthers as a rookie in preseason.  It's here at around 8:40.  Obviously, he had a lot to learn, but when I saw that throw, I knew the Bills had something.   Four years later, we've seen dozens of throws like that.   We still shake our heads and ask how he did that.

 

Watching that video, it goes to show game 1 that the dude could juke out players, stiff arm guys, and flick it a mile. He has come a long way but JA still looked like JA in that video

[In Summary]

19 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

Josh Allen was bad his rookie year but only in the way a lot of rookies are bad their rookie year. I actually thought it was a very encouraging season because all the playmaking ability was there to see. He struggled with the processing a bit and he took off to run too often but there was lots to like about his rookie year.

Ducasse, Bovine, and Mills were not who you would field to help your rookie QB.  That Allen improved rather than implode that year was very impressive. 

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

18 hours ago, Niagara Dude said:

 Since leaving Buffalo John Brown has not been able to stick with any team that he was our top option in Allen's second season

 

I know Allen has only been in the league for four years so it's a small sample size but I don't think there's a single WR/TE that has left Allen and gone on to have a better statistical season without Allen. And yeah, Brown, Beasley and Diggs all had their career best seasons with Allen and these were guys that played in the league a combined 17 years before teaming up with Allen.

[LABILLBACKER]

On 3/23/2022 at 10:06 PM, mrags said:

I knew Josh was the QB I wanted before the draft. The only other QB I had any interest in, was Mayfield. Which I think got a crap deal in Cleveland. His coaching has been terrible. Story of Cleveland’s life. 
 

With all that said, the Minnesota game is what sealed it for me that he was going to be special. Not just the hurdle. But the scramble and dive to the corner of the end zone. At that point you could just see that he would do anything to win. Anything to carry the team on his back. And he hasn’t disappointed. I actually feel bad for him that he’s been let down by his defense at times and coaching at times. Josh will go down as one of the best to ever play this game when all is said and done. 

I was basically going to write this exact post. From the Viking game on, it was clearly apparent we had a superstar in Buffalo. Now if we could just find a playoff defense and coaching that doesn't meltdown. 

[HardyBoy]

23 hours ago, Ethan in Portland said:

Fair amount of revisionist history in this thread. There were a number of posters that had their doubts about Allen after year 2. You know who you are. That said there were legit concerns. His deep ball accuracy was still a major issue after year two.  And the stats don’t lie. 58.8% completion in year 2 is horrible. What was a sign of future success was his TD/INT ratio improvement in year 2.  Keep in mind Lamar Jackson is winning the MVP,Allen losing to Watson in the playoffs with worries about hero ball, and Mahommes is going to the SuperBowl at the same time. 
I believe we all saw glimpses of greatness from Allen. But to say it was obvious he was going to make the massive improvement from year 2 to year 3 is disingenuous.

 

They had more high wind games in 2019 than this year iirc. Completion percentage compared to the qbs they played against might be a better stat.

Edited March 25, 2022 by HardyBoy