Whaley interviewing for Steelers GM

[Saxum]

22 hours ago, Rico said:

Agreed that the Steelers should stay away, but the main reason was they were working for Ralph

 

Donahoe had complete control of the team something no GM has had until Beane.

Beane however does not need to listen to Jim Overdorf which ever other GM needed to do.

When GM could say "Thanks for advice Jim but I am going another way" is when things improved.

[Rico]

55 minutes ago, Limeaid said:

 

Donahoe had complete control of the team something no GM has had until Beane.

Beane however does not need to listen to Jim Overdorf which ever other GM needed to do.

When GM could say "Thanks for advice Jim but I am going another way" is when things improved.

Things started to improve the day Terry Pegula took over, and continued to get better and better each time one of Ralph’s stooges was dumped.
 

As for Donahoe, he was a great football mind who was ruined by excessive micro-managing from the worst owner in football.

 

I don’t have a definitive take on Jimmy O. I can only surmise that he either kept his job as a condition of the sale of the team, or he is a supreme a**-kisser. Can’t say either for sure though.

Edited May 10, 2022 by Rico

[Saxum]

4 minutes ago, Rico said:

Things started to improve the day Terry Pegula took over, and continued to get better and better each time one of Ralph’s stooges was dumped.
 

As for Donahoe, he was a great football mind who was ruined by excessive micro-managing from the worst owner in football.

 

I don’t have a definitive take on Jimmy O. I can only surmise that he either kept his job as a condition of the sale of the team, or he is a supreme a**-kisser. Can’t say either for sure though.

 

It was stated in an interview that it was Beane's choice to keep or release and that he was not required to utilize him.  Beane says he consults with him when he feels need.  He was the one who approved Marcell Dareaus contract despite those in office who did not believe it was a good idea to sign him for a long term contract.   He did not insist on clauses to reclaim bonuses which later came to bite the Bills.

 

Donahoe had complete control of team which Ralph gave to him something he did not do for John Butler for Butler did not want to do some the non-football things.

When things did not go well he became venomous towards fans which is why he was let go and Marv Levy was brought in to help smooth things out with fans and supporters.  Levy had no requirements in many areas including draft but his input was welcomed.

 

 

[Rico]

14 minutes ago, Limeaid said:

 

It was stated in an interview that it was Beane's choice to keep or release and that he was not required to utilize him.  Beane says he consults with him when he feels need.  He was the one who approved Marcell Dareaus contract despite those in office who did not believe it was a good idea to sign him for a long term contract.   He did not insist on clauses to reclaim bonuses which later came to bite the Bills.

 

Donahoe had complete control of team which Ralph gave to him something he did not do for John Butler for Butler did not want to do some the non-football things.

When things did not go well he became venomous towards fans which is why he was let go and Marv Levy was brought in to help smooth things out with fans and supporters.  Levy had no requirements in many areas including draft but his input was welcomed.

 

 

Re: TD,

I would’ve been in a bad mood too if I had to deal with Ralph on the phone all day long.

 

Re: Beane/Jimmy O,

Like I said, I’m just not sure, but I wouldn’t necessarily believe any interview that doesn’t fit my narrative. 

Edited May 10, 2022 by Rico

[Saxum]

3 minutes ago, Rico said:

Re: TD,

I would’ve been in a bad mood too if I had to deal with Ralph on the phone all day long.

 

Re: Beane/Jimmy O,

Like I said, I’m just not sure, but I wouldn’t necessarily believe any interview that doesn’t fit my narrative. 

 

Ralph was not calling every day; it is why he put Tom Donahoe in charge but that does not fit your narrative of hanging a dummy of Ralph over a bonfire.

He wanted JB to do what work Donahoe was given but declined including attending meetings.

 

[BullBuchanan]

12 hours ago, eball said:

@GunnerBill  But some of the decisions he made were just awful — such as trading up to draft Sammy Watkins.

 

This is just such a constantly horrible take. The decision to trade up for Watkins was in no way awful. It's what tons of GMs, including our own did. Sammy Watkins was universally seen as a generational talent that should have been a bigger star than Hopkins. He had all the making of it. Apparently he also had a drug problem and add in some injuries and well - there goes the top of the potential of a promising career - a career that's still going for how "awful" that pick was.

Going out and getting Sammy after they got their QB is no different at all than going out and getting Diggs the way we did. It's no different than the Bengals getting their WRs. Teams with Young QBs like to surround them with talent. If Sammy turned into the 1500 yard, 15TD monster he was supposed to be, and EJ didn't flame out, no one would would ever make this argument.

Judging capability based on results is lazy and ineffective, because it's not reproducible. creating and executing a repeatable process for success is far more useful. GMs get graded almost exclusively on whether or not the QB works out. It's a reality, but if we want to consider ourselves smarter than the average fan, we should recognize that there's far more important things that go into evaluating GMs.

[Aussie Joe]

4 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Andy Dalton had taken the Bengals to the playoffs in 5 of his first 6 seasons going into the 2017 draft.........they had their sights set on winning WITH Dalton at that point.

 

The Bills hadn't been to the playoffs in 17 years and NOBODY thought Tyrod was a long term solution..........the QB draft speculation was rampant.   Especially here.

 

 It had actually been that way since spring of 2016 when people like Bandit were talking up Mahomes and @GunnerBill was adamant about Watson going to be great.

 

As for the draft never being the "be all and end all".............like it or not, when you pass on a great QB in the draft it can cost you for a LONG time.

 

The Bills went 10 years between passing on Drew Brees to not selecting Russell Wilson.  

 

Basically they had just 2 clear cracks at elite QB talents in the draft despite 15 long and painful years of playoff banishment.

 

Then Mahomes and Watson fell into their laps at the same time and they passed.

 

It is beyond lucky that they even got the shot at Allen the next year.

 

But that rare fortune is how you can make maybe the worst decision in franchise history one year.........and survive to tell about it............by making maybe the best draft pick in franchise history the next.

 

As for the Mahomes v Allen stuff...........I was talking up that rivalry when people here were still wondering if they hated Josh Allen or not.

 

It was that way or bust for this regime.

 

McBeane wouldn't even be here if it didn't turn into a rivalry.

 

The weight of the Mahomes miss would have crushed their regime long ago.

 

Allen saved their bacon and as I said then.......HOPEFULLY it just started out like Marino v Kelly.........initially Marino had a 50 TD pass season and went to a SB like Mahomes did and made the Bills look like fools for passing on him.

 

But 6 years after that draft the tide turned and Kelly ended up dominating Marino for the next 8 years and going to 4 SB's etc..

 

 

Yes.. in hindsight they should have not traded the pick and taken Mahomes ( or even Watson ) in 2017...

 

My point about the draft is thats its never going to be an exact science.. .you would know this better than most so I dont get why we are still hand wringing over this decision 5 years later.. particular when the Bills have had a three year run the likes of what we havent seen in 30 years..

 

Whether it was "lucky" they picked Allen the next year ( you wouldnt have known it at the time based on the hysterical media reaction around "wrong Josh"  and from most here who thought he was going to be a bust..) or not .. well .. so be it..  Maybe the Bills were due a bit of luck for once.. I think you would have to say that it was a brave decision to pick him.. they also had to maneuver their way up the list to get him so he didnt fall into their laps..  

 

Also if you want to look at these draft day decisions through the lens of hindsight.. then the Bengals should have realised come 2017 that Dalton was on his last legs and it was time then to move on...they went 15-33 with him the three years he was there after this draft...

 

But doubt they are fretting too much now... They just made Mahomes look like a stooge in the Second half of the Championship  game.. Seriously on that performance versus how Josh played in his two playoff appearances I think you can be optimistic about the future...

 

 

 

 

[Rico]

1 hour ago, Limeaid said:

 

Ralph was not calling every day; it is why he put Tom Donahoe in charge but that does not fit your narrative of hanging a dummy of Ralph over a bonfire.

He wanted JB to do what work Donahoe was given but declined including attending meetings.

 

Now I don’t remember who wrote that article way back when about the decline of TD & Ralph harassing him all day, don’t think it was Sully or Bucky… but it made perfect sense. 

 

Some puff piece by a hack like Tyler Dunne continuing to defend the indefensible like Jimmy O… I’m not buying it.  Not to say it was completely fabricated, cause Beane’s not throwing anyone under the bus.

12 minutes ago, BullBuchanan said:

This is just such a constantly horrible take. The decision to trade up for Watkins was in no way awful. It's what tons of GMs, including our own did. Sammy Watkins was universally seen as a generational talent that should have been a bigger star than Hopkins. He had all the making of it. Apparently he also had a drug problem and add in some injuries and well - there goes the top of the potential of a promising career - a career that's still going for how "awful" that pick was.

Going out and getting Sammy after they got their QB is no different at all than going out and getting Diggs the way we did. It's no different than the Bengals getting their WRs. Teams with Young QBs like to surround them with talent. If Sammy turned into the 1500 yard, 15TD monster he was supposed to be, and EJ didn't flame out, no one would would ever make this argument.

Judging capability based on results is lazy and ineffective, because it's not reproducible. creating and executing a repeatable process for success is far more useful. GMs get graded almost exclusively on whether or not the QB works out. It's a reality, but if we want to consider ourselves smarter than the average fan, we should recognize that there's far more important things that go into evaluating GMs.

Agreed, go to the bottom line.

3 years as assistant GM + 4 years as GM =

7 years with no playoffs=
FAILURE.

[BullBuchanan]

5 minutes ago, Rico said:

Agreed, go to the bottom line.

3 years as assistant GM + 4 years as GM =

7 years with no playoffs=
FAILURE.

That's pretty much the exact opposite of what I suggested.

[Rico]

7 minutes ago, BullBuchanan said:

That's pretty much the exact opposite of what I suggested.

Oh i read you wrong, when you said results, i thought you meant results of some of the moves he made like Sammy.

 

I won't pick on those too much, I always go to the bottom line, this is the NFL, he should've been gone long before 2017.

Edited May 10, 2022 by Rico

[Don Otreply]

Not trying to be mean spirited, but why does anyone care? Other than he is a bad GM candidate, and will likely F up the Steelers cap management, and that’s good for every team that would play them over the period of time he is employed by them, which likely won’t be long.

[GunnerBill]

10 hours ago, Rico said:

Oh i read you wrong, when you said results, i thought you meant results of some of the moves he made like Sammy.

 

I won't pick on those too much, I always go to the bottom line, this is the NFL, he should've been gone long before 2017.

 

And Whaley's bottom line, while not good enough was better than the GMs who came before him. He had improved the team somewhat. Just not enough. 

[Rico]

59 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

And Whaley's bottom line, while not good enough was better than the GMs who came before him. He had improved the team somewhat. Just not enough. 

Not close to enough. FAILURE.
 

Unfortunately for him, there are no participation trophys in the NFL

[Kirby Jackson]

I can hopefully shed a little light on the last 20 years in terms of what was really happening vs. perception of what was happening. Donahoe had complete control. That complete control though came with oversight from Grosse Pointe (which basically means Jeff Littmann who was the real boss). After Donahoe left Ralph (and Littmann) were reluctant to give that much control to anyone. They replaced him with John Guy on the pro side (disaster) and Modrak on the college side. At the point Russ Brandon was running the business side. They operated as 3 silos under an aging Ralph (and Littmann). Marv Levy was technically the GM but was only there because Ralph wanted someone that he could trust on the football side. Marv had about as much GM responsibility as a TBD poster though. He didn’t scout. He didn’t sign players. He was a figurehead and ONLY a figurehead. 
 

As Ralph’s health got worse he appointed Russ Brandon as the de facto owner. I don’t know how else to describe the role. It was the first time that someone didn’t need to get approval from Littmann or Ralph to make decisions. To be clear RUSS BRANDON WAS NOT INVOLVED IN MAKING PERSONNEL DECISIONS. He was acting in the same role that Terry Pegula is now. He was overseeing the business side and signing off on what Nix, and later Whaley wanted. Nix and Whaley made the football decisions and worked alongside Jim Overdorf to bang out the contract details. This held true until McDermott and Beane arrived. 

Basically, Ralph (and Littmann) had control until maybe the last 3 or 4 years of Ralph’s life. At that point Russ Brandon filled that role through the sale to the Pegula’s. The people playing the Beane role along the way were: Donahoe, Guy, Modrak, Nix, and Whaley. Obviously, you know all of the coaches. 
 

With all of that said, Whaley was Colbert’s right hand man in Pittsburgh before coming to Buffalo. They thought of him as a rising star as an evaluator. I’m not saying that they were right, just the perception of him in Pittsburgh. It’s no surprise that he is being considered, especially considering that Colbert and Tomlin are involved in the decision making. He’s the favorite.

Edited May 11, 2022 by Kirby Jackson

[GunnerBill]

18 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

I can hopefully shed a little light on the last 20 years in terms of what was really happening vs. perception of what was happening. Donahoe had complete control. That complete control though came with oversight from Grosse Pointe (which basically means Jeff Littmann who was the real boss). After Donahoe left Ralph (and Littmann) were reluctant to give that much control to anyone. They replaced him with John Guy on the pro side (disaster) and Modrak on the college side. At the point Russ Brandon was running the business side. They operated as 3 silos under an aging Ralph (and Littmann). Mark Levy was technically the GM but was only there because Ralph wanted someone that he could trust on the football side. Marv had about as much GM responsibility as a TBD poster though. He didn’t scout. He didn’t sign players. He was a figurehead and ONLY a figurehead. 
 

As Ralph’s health got worse he appointed Russ Brandon as the de facto owner. I don’t know how else to describe the role. It was the first time that someone didn’t need to get approval from Littmann or Ralph to make decisions. To be clear RUSS BRANDON WAS NOT INVOLVED IN MAKING PERSONNEL DECISIONS. He was acting in the same role that Terry Pegula is now. He was overseeing the business side and signing off on what Nix, and later Whaley wanted. Nix and Whaley made the football decisions and worked alongside Jim Overdorf to bang out the contract details. This held true until McDermott and Beane arrived. 

Basically, Ralph (and Littmann) had control until maybe the last 3 or 4 years of Ralph’s life. At that point Russ Brandon filled that role through the sale to the Pegula’s. The people playing the Beane role along the way were: Donahoe, Guy, Modrak, Nix, and Whaley. Obviously, you know all of the coaches. 
 

With all of that said, Whaley was Colbert’s right hand man in Pittsburgh before coming to Buffalo. They thought of him as a rising star as an evaluator. I’m not saying that they were right, just the perception of him in Pittsburgh. It’s no surprise that he is being considered, especially considering that Colbert and Tomlin are involved in the decision making. He’s the favorite.

 

I remember you explaining all of this multiple times Kirby and was always grateful for your insight. But it doesn't stop people creating their own version of the truth. 

[Rico]

52 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

I can hopefully shed a little light on the last 20 years in terms of what was really happening vs. perception of what was happening. Donahoe had complete control. That complete control though came with oversight from Grosse Pointe (which basically means Jeff Littmann who was the real boss). After Donahoe left Ralph (and Littmann) were reluctant to give that much control to anyone. They replaced him with John Guy on the pro side (disaster) and Modrak on the college side. At the point Russ Brandon was running the business side. They operated as 3 silos under an aging Ralph (and Littmann). Mark Levy was technically the GM but was only there because Ralph wanted someone that he could trust on the football side. Marv had about as much GM responsibility as a TBD poster though. He didn’t scout. He didn’t sign players. He was a figurehead and ONLY a figurehead. 
 

As Ralph’s health got worse he appointed Russ Brandon as the de facto owner. I don’t know how else to describe the role. It was the first time that someone didn’t need to get approval from Littmann or Ralph to make decisions. To be clear RUSS BRANDON WAS NOT INVOLVED IN MAKING PERSONNEL DECISIONS. He was acting in the same role that Terry Pegula is now. He was overseeing the business side and signing off on what Nix, and later Whaley wanted. Nix and Whaley made the football decisions and worked alongside Jim Overdorf to bang out the contract details. This held true until McDermott and Beane arrived. 

Basically, Ralph (and Littmann) had control until maybe the last 3 or 4 years of Ralph’s life. At that point Russ Brandon filled that role through the sale to the Pegula’s. The people playing the Beane role along the way were: Donahoe, Guy, Modrak, Nix, and Whaley. Obviously, you know all of the coaches. 
 

With all of that said, Whaley was Colbert’s right hand man in Pittsburgh before coming to Buffalo. They thought of him as a rising star as an evaluator. I’m not saying that they were right, just the perception of him in Pittsburgh. It’s no surprise that he is being considered, especially considering that Colbert and Tomlin are involved in the decision making. He’s the favorite.

Will you FINALLY agree that everyone you mentioned in the above post from the Bills with the exception of McBeane & Pegs failed at their jobs?

Edited May 11, 2022 by Rico

[freddyjj]

22 hours ago, SoTier said:

 

Your claim isn't supported by actual facts

 

22 hours ago, SoTier said:

Russ Brandon was hired by the Bills in 2004 or 2005 IIRC during which time he became Ralph Wilson's right-had man

Brandon was hired November 1, 1997 by the Bills in a Marketing role

[Bill from NYC]

41 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

 Marv Levy was technically the GM but was only there because Ralph wanted someone that he could trust on the football side. Marv had about as much GM responsibility as a TBD poster though. He didn’t scout. He didn’t sign players. He was a figurehead and ONLY a figurehead. 
 

 

I appreciate your post and thank you for the insight. That said, I strongly disagree with the above.

 

I am sure that Levy had more of a say as GM than you described. First of all, he brought in his clone in Dick Jauron. Together, they were two clueless men who had NO chance at winning, and I don't give a damn about their college degrees. My daughter is an Ivy League Grad too. I love her but would not want her running the Bills.

Levy for many years stressed just how much he valued the secondary and special teams. The first thing he did as GM was devote the 2006 draft to the secondary (despite other glaring needs), trading away a premium draft pick while doing so. 

When our great players like Kelly, Andre, Bruce and Thurman were getting old, Marv (as coach) was not drafting their replacements, the Bills were drafting cornerbacks. Do you think that Marv had no say in this? 

During the season when we were so bad that we wound up with the #4 pick in the draft, a reporter asked Marv what he thought was wrong with the Bills. His reply: "special teams."

Count me as one who believes that the Bills didn't reach those 4 super bowls because of Levy. I think that we reached them in spite of Levy.

I am sorry if the above offends anyone but it is jmo, and I guess this is what we are here to express.

 

[Not at the table Karlos]

11 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said:

I appreciate your post and thank you for the insight. That said, I strongly disagree with the above.

 

I am sure that Levy had more of a say as GM than you described. First of all, he brought in his clone in Dick Jauron. Together, they were two clueless men who had NO chance at winning, and I don't give a damn about their college degrees. My daughter is an Ivy League Grad too. I love her but would not want her running the Bills.

Levy for many years stressed just how much he valued the secondary and special teams. The first thing he did as GM was devote the 2006 draft to the secondary (despite other glaring needs), trading away a premium draft pick while doing so. 

When our great players like Kelly, Andre, Bruce and Thurman were getting old, Marv (as coach) was not drafting their replacements, the Bills were drafting cornerbacks. Do you think that Marv had no say in this? 

During the season when we were so bad that we wound up with the #4 pick in the draft, a reporter asked Marv what he thought was wrong with the Bills. His reply: "special teams."

Count me as one who believes that the Bills didn't reach those 4 super bowls because of Levy. I think that we reached them in spite of Levy.

I am sorry if the above offends anyone but it is jmo, and I guess this is what we are here to express.

 

What premium pick was traded away for secondary help? During Marv's years the only premium pick that was traded was to move up for John McCargo who was a DT. 

[Bill from NYC]

1 hour ago, Not at the table Karlos said:

What premium pick was traded away for secondary help? During Marv's years the only premium pick that was traded was to move up for John McCargo who was a DT. 

Yes, it was in the same stupid 2006 draft.  We walked into that draft with the #8, 2 early seconds and 2 early thirds.  Those 5 picks resulted in Donte Whitner, John McCargo, Ashton Youboty, and Ko Simpson. This was Rich Kotite level idiocy.