Whaley interviewing for Steelers GM

[BADOLBILZ]

6 hours ago, Dr. K said:

I have not read all the responses here, but I expect that many if not most rank on him.

 

I don't think he deserves to be run down that much. He produced a roster of good players. I believe he would not have hired Rex if it was strictly up to him. It was the Pegulas who didn't want to let Rex get out of the building. 

 

Yes, the cap was a mess and there were some dicey draft picks. But some good ones too, and he brought some fine players to the team. If the Pegulas had let him hire the coach after Saint Doug quit he might have survived.

 

He didn't, and in the long run that proved best for the Bills. I'm very happy with McDermott & Beane. But I don't think he was the disaster many here have made him out to be. 

 

 

The cap wasn't a mess.   That was just a story Beane made up to confidence man the fans into not questioning whether what they were going to do was necessary.

 

They were actually like $32M below the cap going into the 2017 offseason with very few commitments in 2018 or 2019.   

 

In UFA Whaley was strong.........he had been the pro personnel guy before getting the GM job..........he scored some larcenous deals in UFA..........Tyrod for peanuts,  Incognito, Lorax, Zach Brown. 

 

The draft picks he made were compromised by scheme/system changes.........he had 2 very different offenses and 3 different defensive systems to stock in his brief reign.

 

If you could call it a reign..........because he had no power.

 

That was his weakness...........he didn't know how to get clout in the organization and so he had both ownership and coaches sabotaging his endeavors from the get-go to the get-out.    

 

The situation was totally dysfunctional and he didn't have the personality/power to do anything about it.........he HAD to go.

 

The first key thing that Beane and McDermott were able to do was take full control away from the Pegula's.

 

The Pegula's reportedly hate that they agreed to that........but their track record with the Sabres and the Bills prior to McBeane's arrival proves that it's warranted.

 

When you get a franchise QB and the HC and GM are working in unison and unencumbered by ownership............. you don't need much of a batting average wrt to decisions to win division titles.

[BADOLBILZ]

10 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

C'mon Man

 

McDermott hired Zay Jones college coach to be the Bills WR coach.  He wanted his guy.

 

 

 

Unclear how much credit Whaley gets for that draft.  The rumor is McDermott may have used Panthers scouting info, and that Whaley built the board but McDermott made the picks.

 

Be that as it may, Whaley was (and probably is) a decent talent evaluator IMO.   Building a team, salary cap management etc - maybe not so much.

 

 

Correct.   Phil McGeoghan.   

 

We don't trust any of these long time scouts that put a very talented roster together.............but in Phil McGeoghan we trust. 

[Aussie Joe]

8 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

2) 4 months is an eternity to put a bunch of high profile college QB's like Mahomes and Watson under the microscope.     Trading that pick to the Chiefs with 2 high profile QB prospects on the board like that is the most regrettable personnel mistake in franchise history.   It made 13 seconds possible.  It has blocked them from 2 SB appearances and counting.    That's the net result of McDecision making and he and the Pegula's playing it inexplicably coy with their GM spot.   

 

Several other teams passed on Mahomes too.. one of them was the Bengals who I believe selected John Ross instead in that draft (.. who??)

 

And guess which team ( bengals v chiefs)  has blocked the other from a superbowl appearance?

 

The draft should never be the be all and end all..

 

Be thankful that the Bills got another guy that can take them to the Superbowl ( we hope..) . Just like what happened to the Bengals...

 

As I have said to you before.. Allen V Mahomes has been going for 4 years now.. we are probably at the end of the first quarter ..

 

Lets see how the final score board reads at the end of their careers..

 

 

 

Edited May 10, 2022 by Aussie Joe

[GunnerBill]

4 hours ago, Mr. Wonderful said:

He's respected around the league.  Kept hearing that PR cliché response with zero basis when he was hired by the Bills.  Only thing he was known for was emailing porn.  LOL.

 

Despite his struggles with elements of the job in Buffalo he has not been interviewed three times for other GM vacancies by NFL teams. Which I would suggest does speak at least a bit to him being respected across the league. 

Edited May 10, 2022 by GunnerBill

[eball]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Despite his struggles with elements of the job in Buffalo he has now been interviewed three times for other GM vacancies by NFL teams. Which I would suggest does speak at least a bit to him being respected across the league. 

 

FTFY.  Yes, Whaley is respected as a judge of talent.  He brought talent to the Bills.  He just never grasped how to build a team (culture, salary cap).

 

[GunnerBill]

4 minutes ago, eball said:

 

FTFY.  Yes, Whaley is respected as a judge of talent.  He brought talent to the Bills.  He just never grasped how to build a team (culture, salary cap).

 

 

Ha thanks... yes. I think it is a legit criticism of Whaley that he lacked the big picture strategy. We have seen with Beane how valuable that can be. Beane came from a football ops background first and only really learned about player evaluation much later in his career when Gettleman arrived in Carolina. And while Beane clearly can evaluate he is a strategist first and an evaluator second. That leadership and strategic vision is his strongest asset, it's what sets him apart. 

 

The only defence I'd make of Whaley on that point is he was working in an organisation that was in a state of upheaval. When he took over the reigns he did so with a newly appointed Head Coach that he hadn't hired and an absentee owner. Then the owner died, the team was up for sale, new ownership came in and hired another coach he didn't select. I think the situation he was put in to an extent influenced his propensity for short term thinking and tactical rather than strategic decision making. Even on the salary cap we don't know they extent of influence he had on that as the GM. We do know that the awful Charles Clay contract was basically Rex and Roman insisting and then forcing Overdorff to find a way to make it work. None of which is to exonerate Whaley entirely. You are supposed to be a leader you have to stand up and lead in those situations and insist on a strategy regardless. Bill Polian often tells the story of Kay Stephenson in 1985 when the Bills had loads of draft capital and a bad team. As Polian tells it he said to Stephenson "look you need to win we could use these picks for some short term guys who can help" and Stephenson refused and said "nope we should put the franchise first we need to execute these picks and rebuild."

 

That is the kind of strength Whaley should have shown and didn't. If I was a team considering him as my GM that would be the biggest concern I'd have. General Manager is a leadership position, but with Whaley's limitations as a public speaker and indecisive, muddled strategic thinking I'm not sure you can buy into him as a leader. Pittsburgh is a slightly different case study though. The leader of that organisation is clearly Mike Tomlin. This feels a bit like get a GM Tomlin knows and is comfortable with. It is probably Doug's last chance of getting a second crack at the job in the NFL. 

[eball]

@GunnerBill yeah, I used to defend Whaley to a certain extent as well, in that he didn’t get to hire “his own” HC.  But some of the decisions he made were just awful — such as trading up to draft Sammy Watkins.  I know at the time I was excited about that move but that was the fan in me, not somebody responsible for building an organization.  I think that incident shows Whaley actually was given the power to run the franchise, because we all know how Saint Doug felt about it.

 

I agree with your sentiments about Pittsburgh under Tomlin likely being his last shot at being an NFL GM.

 

[GunnerBill]

Just now, eball said:

@GunnerBill yeah, I used to defend Whaley to a certain extent as well, in that he didn’t get to hire “his own” HC.  But some of the decisions he made were just awful — such as trading up to draft Sammy Watkins.  I know at the time I was excited about that move but that was the fan in me, not somebody responsible for building an organization.  I think that incident shows Whaley actually was given the power to run the franchise, because we all know how Saint Doug felt about it.

 

I agree with your sentiments about Pittsburgh under Tomlin likely being his last shot at being an NFL GM.

 

 

He had the power to make the Sammy decision, for sure. My argument wasn't that he didn't have power. It was that the instability encouraged him to think short term tactics rather than long term strategy. That is pretty typical when you have organisational instability. But short term thinking almost always dooms franchises. You should only ever do it when you have a franchise QB in his final 3 or 4 years and you are trying to eek out another title. 

[GunnerBill]

To add - apparently there are three known finalists who have had second interviews (another former Bill, Panthers Assistant GM, Dan Morgan was on the initial interview list). Of the three (the others are John Spytek, VP Player Personnel Buccs and Ryan Cowden, VP Player Personnel Titans) Whaley is the only one who has worked with Kevin Colbert before and given the Steelers are keen to retain Colbert in some capacity I think he might even have the inside track on the job. Colbert was on the panel for the initial round of interviews but Tomlin and Art Rooney are the panel for the 2nd round of interviews and they will make the decision. 

Edited May 10, 2022 by GunnerBill

[Bill from NYC]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

To add - apparently there are three known finalists who have had second interviews (another former Bill, Panthers Assistant GM, Dan Morgan was on the initial interview list). Of the three (the others are John Spytek, VP Player Personnel Buccs and Ryan Cowden, VP Player Personnel Titans) Whaley is the only one who has worked with Kevin Colbert before and given the Steelers are keen to retain Colbert in some capacity I think he might even have the inside track on the job. Colbert was on the panel for the initial round of interviews but Tomlin and Art Rooney are the panel for the 2nd round of interviews and they will make the decision. 

I hope that Whaley gets the job so there that there will be an idiot in the AFC, willing to trade away his best draft choices for little return. At draft time, Whaley was like an undisciplined kid in a candy store. Trading up for WR Watkins (on a team with no QB mind you) and giving away the store was really one of the dumbest moves I have ever seen by the Bills, and this is saying quite a bit. It rivals Levy turning down numerous big trade offers for the #8 pick (which he admitted receiving) and drafting Whitner. 

Whaley would make a good scout. He is NOT a good GM and if he was, there would have been at least a hint of interest in him many years ago. To each his or her own but I fail to see any basis to think that Whaley would be anything less than an awful GM, once again.

Go get 'em Steelers!

[GunnerBill]

3 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said:

I hope that Whaley gets the job so there that there will be an idiot in the AFC, willing to trade away his best draft choices for little return. At draft time, Whaley was like an undisciplined kid in a candy store. Trading up for WR Watkins (on a team with no QB mind you) and giving away the store was really one of the dumbest moves I have ever seen by the Bills, and this is saying quite a bit. It rivals Levy turning down numerous big trade offers for the #8 pick (which he admitted receiving) and drafting Whitner. 

Whaley would make a good scout. He is NOT a good GM and if he was, there would have been at least a hint of interest in him many years ago. To each his or her own but I fail to see any basis to think that Whaley would be anything less than an awful GM, once again.

Go get 'em Steelers!

 

There has been. He was a finalist in Green Bay when Thompson retired and had an interview for the Browns job too.

[Bill from NYC]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

There has been. He was a finalist in Green Bay when Thompson retired and had an interview for the Browns job too.

I don't know, Rooney rule type situation, or teams trying to feign an interest in order to look better in some way? If a team wanted him they had many years to hire him.

The man is a proven failure as a GM. 

Edited May 10, 2022 by Bill from NYC

[GunnerBill]

9 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said:

I don't know, Rooney rule type situation, or teams trying to feign an interest in order to look better in some way. If a team wanted him they had many years to hire him.

The man is a proven failure as a GM. 

 

Ah now you are shifting the goalposts. You said there hadn't been a "hint of interest". There had. This is the 3rd General Manager interview process he has been involved in since the Bills fired him. He hasn't been hired. That is self evident. But there has been interest. 

 

That he failed in Buffalo is also beyond doubt.

Edited May 10, 2022 by GunnerBill

[SoTier]

 

15 hours ago, Call_Of_Ktulu said:

Whaley and Brandon are the main reason we sucked for 20 years. The Steelers would be wise to steer clear of him.

 

Your claim isn't supported by actual facts.  Ralph Wilson was the reason the Bills sucked for most of years that he owned the team between 1970 and 2013, a total of 44 years. 

• Between 1970 and 1987, the Bills had 12 losing seasons, 5 winning seasons, and 1 8-8 season.   They made the playoffs 3 times and had 0  playoff  wins.
• Between 1988 and 1999 the Bills reeled off 10 winning seasons and 2 losing seasons, made playoffs 10 times and went to the Super Bowl 4 times. 
• From 2000 through 2013, the Bills had 11 losing seasons, 1 winning season, and 2 8-8 tied seasons.
• That's 25 losses, 16 winning seasons, and 3 tie seasons.

 

Russ Brandon was hired by the Bills in 2004 or 2005 IIRC during which time he became Ralph Wilson's right-had man.  He was promoted to GM in 2006.  Ralph Wilson effectively stop actively participating in running the team during the 2009 season, so Brandon was effectively in total charge of the team until after the 2013 season.   Brandon remained Bills president under Pegula until May, 2018.  Under Brandon, 2006-2018, the Bills had 10 losing seasons, 2 winning seasons, and 1 8-8 seasons. 

Doug Whaley was Bills assistant GM between 2010 and 2013.  He was named GM after the 2013 draft, and was fired after the 2017 draft.

 

You might try to make a case for Brandon being responsible for much of losing between 2000 and 2018, but Whaley's tenure was simply too short.  He essentially ran 3 drafts -- 2014, 2015, and 2016.  The buck always stops at the top, and Wilson was the man in charge for 44 years since 1970 and hired/promoted Brandon.

Since Pegula purchased the team, 2014-2021, the Bills have 5 winning seasons, 2 losing seasons, and 1 8-8 season, making the playoffs 4 times.

 

 

 

9 hours ago, JESSEFEFFER said:

Why would the Pegulas let their lame duck GM take the next shot at a franchise QB?  That was clearly going to be the next GM's primary mission.  That's the way I saw it anyways.  The Bills almost screwed that up by making the playoffs meaning Beane needed two trades to get to #7 and draft Josh.

 

[Thurman#1]

16 hours ago, Dr. K said:

I have not read all the responses here, but I expect that many if not most rank on him.

 

I don't think he deserves to be run down that much. He produced a roster of good players. I believe he would not have hired Rex if it was strictly up to him. It was the Pegulas who didn't want to let Rex get out of the building. 

 

Yes, the cap was a mess and there were some dicey draft picks. But some good ones too, and he brought some fine players to the team. If the Pegulas had let him hire the coach after Saint Doug quit he might have survived.

 

He didn't, and in the long run that proved best for the Bills. I'm very happy with McDermott & Beane. But I don't think he was the disaster many here have made him out to be. 

 

 

Most of the fine players who were on those Whaley teams were actually brought in during Nix's term as GM.

 

The offense wasn't that good, but the defense really was ... almost every one of those defensive guys were brought in under Nix.

 

And the salary cap really was a disaster for a team that produced no playoff seasons.

 

Agreed that the Rex decision appears to have been the consensus. But IMO the Pegulas would have listened if Whaley had said, "Look, I can't work with this guy. He puts on a great show but I don't see substance there," or something along those lines. He didn't. 

[The Jokeman]

5 hours ago, eball said:

 

FTFY.  Yes, Whaley is respected as a judge of talent.  He brought talent to the Bills.  He just never grasped how to build a team (culture, salary cap).

 

GM isn't response for culture, that's on the coaching. In terms of the cap, he's not at Beane's level but appears most GMs aren't. 

[Thurman#1]

13 minutes ago, SoTier said:

 

 

Your claim isn't supported by actual facts.  Ralph Wilson was the reason the Bills sucked for most of years that he owned the team between 1970 and 2013, a total of 44 years. 

• Between 1970 and 1987, the Bills had 12 losing seasons, 5 winning seasons, and 1 8-8 season.   They made the playoffs 3 times and had 0  playoff  wins.
• Between 1988 and 1999 the Bills reeled off 10 winning seasons and 2 losing seasons, made playoffs 10 times and went to the Super Bowl 4 times. 
• From 2000 through 2013, the Bills had 11 losing seasons, 1 winning season, and 2 8-8 tied seasons.
• That's 25 losses, 16 winning seasons, and 3 tie seasons.

 

Russ Brandon was hired by the Bills in 2004 or 2005 IIRC during which time he became Ralph Wilson's right-had man.  He was promoted to GM in 2006.  Ralph Wilson effectively stop actively participating in running the team during the 2009 season, so Brandon was effectively in total charge of the team until after the 2013 season.   Brandon remained Bills president under Pegula until May, 2018.  Under Brandon, 2006-2018, the Bills had 10 losing seasons, 2 winning seasons, and 1 8-8 seasons. 

Doug Whaley was Bills assistant GM between 2010 and 2013.  He was named GM after the 2013 draft, and was fired after the 2017 draft.

 

You might try to make a case for Brandon being responsible for much of losing between 2000 and 2018, but Whaley's tenure was simply too short.  He essentially ran 3 drafts -- 2014, 2015, and 2016.  The buck always stops at the top, and Wilson was the man in charge for 44 years since 1970 and hired/promoted Brandon.

Since Pegula purchased the team, 2014-2021, the Bills have 5 winning seasons, 2 losing seasons, and 1 8-8 season, making the playoffs 4 times.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I could be wrong, but I believe that when he said Whaley and Brandon were the main reason we sucked for 20 years, he was being sarcastic.

 

 

1 minute ago, The Jokeman said:

GM isn't response for culture, that's on the coaching. In terms of the cap, he's not at Beane's level but appears most GMs aren't. 

 

 

GM is absolutely part of the mix in terms of culture. He brings in the kind of players that the coach wants. And if that includes culture guys, process guys, the GM can either succeed or botch bringing in the right kind of guys. Beane has killed it. Whaley was OK but his big shot was Sammy Watkins, who kind of looked OK for a while but very much did not prove a process guy.

[Rc2catch]

Whaley I think unfairly takes more heat than he should of. 
He almost had buffalo back to relevance. 
His and many gm’s downfall was he couldn’t secure a quarterback. And he got a little desperate towards the end. 
It was an impossible situation for him. I respect his willingness to make aggressive deals. Especially after all the years the front office wouldn’t even try. Of all the terrible and unqualified people who have been involved over the drought I would think more fans would appreciate whaleys time here trying to build a solid team despite the franchise being a complete disaster and going through a sale. 

[SoTier]

2 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

I could be wrong, but I believe that when he said Whaley and Brandon were the main reason we sucked for 20 years, he was being sarcastic.

 

 

That's a possibility.  Sarcasm doesn't always come across via the printed word.

 

 

[BADOLBILZ]

10 hours ago, Aussie Joe said:

 

Several other teams passed on Mahomes too.. one of them was the Bengals who I believe selected John Ross instead in that draft (.. who??)

 

And guess which team ( bengals v chiefs)  has blocked the other from a superbowl appearance?

 

The draft should never be the be all and end all..

 

Be thankful that the Bills got another guy that can take them to the Superbowl ( we hope..) . Just like what happened to the Bengals...

 

As I have said to you before.. Allen V Mahomes has been going for 4 years now.. we are probably at the end of the first quarter ..

 

Lets see how the final score board reads at the end of their careers..

 

 

 

 

 

Andy Dalton had taken the Bengals to the playoffs in 5 of his first 6 seasons going into the 2017 draft.........they had their sights set on winning WITH Dalton at that point.

 

The Bills hadn't been to the playoffs in 17 years and NOBODY thought Tyrod was a long term solution..........the QB draft speculation was rampant.   Especially here.

 

 It had actually been that way since spring of 2016 when people like Bandit were talking up Mahomes and @GunnerBill was adamant about Watson going to be great.

 

As for the draft never being the "be all and end all".............like it or not, when you pass on a great QB in the draft it can cost you for a LONG time.

 

The Bills went 10 years between passing on Drew Brees to not selecting Russell Wilson.  

 

Basically they had just 2 clear cracks at elite QB talents in the draft despite 15 long and painful years of playoff banishment.

 

Then Mahomes and Watson fell into their laps at the same time and they passed.

 

It is beyond lucky that they even got the shot at Allen the next year.

 

But that rare fortune is how you can make maybe the worst decision in franchise history one year.........and survive to tell about it............by making maybe the best draft pick in franchise history the next.

 

As for the Mahomes v Allen stuff...........I was talking up that rivalry when people here were still wondering if they hated Josh Allen or not.

 

It was that way or bust for this regime.

 

McBeane wouldn't even be here if it didn't turn into a rivalry.

 

The weight of the Mahomes miss would have crushed their regime long ago.

 

Allen saved their bacon and as I said then.......HOPEFULLY it just started out like Marino v Kelly.........initially Marino had a 50 TD pass season and went to a SB like Mahomes did and made the Bills look like fools for passing on him.

 

But 6 years after that draft the tide turned and Kelly ended up dominating Marino for the next 8 years and going to 4 SB's etc..

 

Edited May 10, 2022 by BADOLBILZ