From Dawg Pound to Bills Mafia - Browns Fans Leaving for the Bills

[TheBrownBear]

17 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Again, I have never once said I don't believe the women. This is not so much about Deshaun Watson as it is about the core principles of the democracy that we live by. And I accept that the system is imperfect. But we either have a justice system and if we do we have to trust it or we delegate justice to mob rule and allow the court of public opinion to decide on guilt. I repeat that must be avoided at all costs. 

Dude.  I might be wrong, I didn't read through every single post, but I have seen no one argue that the court of public opinion should replace the rule of law.  And if anyone is saying that, they are dangerous fools - agreed.  I get it.  Outrage culture seemingly can condemn a man these days before they ever get a chance to defend themselves, but that's not really what's happening here.  Watson is free to do whatever he likes, but we do not have to like it and respect it by rooting for the guy 

[Steptide]

6 hours ago, Beach said:

this reminds me of the outrage Philly had when they signed Vick.  the outrage vanished when he started winning.

Ya, it'll be exactly this. None of these fans are leaving their team. Just like all the people that would never watch the NFL again after players kneeling for the anthem. Next week these same fans are gonna be talking about how the Browns are gonna go to the superbowl this year 

[ndirish1978]

25 minutes ago, Little Dog said:

I don’t know if he’s guilty or not. I do know he was never charged with a crime, and out 26 not one accusation stuck. The only people I hate worse than men who abuse women in any kind of way are people who abuse children in any kind of way. 

I don’t know the facts of what happened, until they come out I reserve judgment.

 

Don't really care. 20+ accusations is enough to tell me that it's more likely than not that he is not a person I want to root for. Do you know how hard it is to get a criminal conviction for a crime with no physical evidence and based mostly on anecdotal evidence, I doubt it. 

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, HappyDays said:

 

Yeah he is legally entitled to get on with his life. That doesn't mean an NFL franchise has to sell the farm and give him the most guaranteed money in NFL history to woo him to their team. Especially when the contract is very specifically written to mitigate his punishment as much as possible. Watson has at the very least shown a pattern of incredibly disturbing behavior and he comes out the other side of it with generational wealth. I respect our legal system as much as anyone and I accept that the underlying principle of innocent until proven guilty will sometimes produce bad results. I don't believe in mob justice. None of that precludes me or anyone else from judging Watson for his actions or judging the Browns for theirs. We know Watson was serially finding new massage therapists online. There are a number of credible accusations that he used those sessions to get his thrills and put those women in an awful position. The man that did that is now the face of an NFL franchise. There is room in the court of public opinion for men like that to lose their status in society.

 

I agree with almost all of this HappyDays, but what is the alternative? The alternative is the NFL shuns him and the court of public opinion has essentially decided that the principle of innocent until proven guilty is irrelevant and he should lose his livelihood. That is an outcome that leads you down a very slippery slope. Because today that is Deshaun Watson who may or may not have done some of the things he is accused of but once you undermine that core principle then what if tomorrow it is a local business owner or school teacher or whoever else who loses their employment to mob rule. The courts are the only places that should determine guilt and apply punishments. 

[TheBrownBear]

4 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I think you should read my posts again. You seem to have a problem with comprehension. If you want to debate the utility and efficiency of the justice system with me let's do it. This is pretty much my area of expertise. 

I don't care to and this isn't about that.  I agree 100% in the dictum of innocent until proven guilty.  It means that Watson has the right to move around freely in society, work, vote, etc., and unless I'm confused, he is being allowed to do all these things.  Innocence in the court of law doesn't mean we have to like the guy, root for him and financially support him.  These are two separate things.  Just ask Fred Goldman.

[GunnerBill]

3 minutes ago, TheBrownBear said:

Dude.  I might be wrong, I didn't read through every single post, but I have seen no one argue that the court of public opinion should replace the rule of law.  And if anyone is saying that, they are dangerous fools - agreed.  I get it.  Outrage culture seemingly can condemn a man these days before they ever get a chance to defend themselves, but that's not really what's happening here.  Watson is free to do whatever he likes, but we do not have to like it and respect it by rooting for the guy 

 

I never said anyone had to root for him. In my very first post in this topic I said that that I understood why some Browns fans felt the way they did. But I care deeply and passionately about upholding the justice system and the rule of law. It has been my career for most of the last 15 years. And that requires it to be the case that the courts are the arbiters of justice. If a person is innocent in the eyes of the law then they should be free to go about their business, however uncomfortable we may find it.  

[Maybe Someday]

22 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Agree, the system is not perfect, it is not infallible. It is just infinitely better than the alternative. My concern is that over the last 20/30 years you are starting to see a creep towards the import into the criminal justice system of emotion. It needs to be resisted at all costs. 

I think the emotion is starting to creep in more and more due to the overall number of cases where we see someone who has very likely done what they are accused of getting off on a technicality or because they can essentially buy their way out of it. Or even the number of wrongful convictions we see being turned over years later. It happens way too often in the US and as it keeps happening, it erodes the publics confidence in the system. Our system favors the wealthy, always has. 
 

In order to try and prosecute Watson, these women would be dragged though the mud of public opinion and forced to relive the experience over again. That is why so many of the he said she said situations go unprosecuted in this country. In large part the women don’t want to go through it when it’s 50/50 that the accused will be held liable.  How many women get raped only to be called a *****?  Way too many. 
 

This is why so many of us disagree with some of your rationale and it’s likely due to how your exposure differs from ours. You seem to be looking at this as black and white where we see it as a huge gray area because we see it happen locally all the time. 
 

If someone does something horrible/illegal but there is little evidence and everyone is too afraid to testify, are they really innocent? You seem to think they are but many of us have seen it enough to logically conclude they are not.

[Albany,n.y.]

2 hours ago, Chandler#81 said:

In no way did I mean to infer the Bills are a squeaky clean operation. But your references are lame. Rogers was jailed for killing a person in an auto wreck while drunk. The only eye-popping thing Richie did was try to chop off his dead fathers head -AFTER he left Buffalo. No criminal charges 

Rogers killed 3 teens.  He was an addict whose addictions eventually killed him.  BEFORE Richie came to the Bills the 2nd time, he had served a league suspension for bullying a teammate, had multiple anger management issues going back to his college years, and had been accused of harrassing women at an event while a member of the Dolphins.  How soon you forget what a controversial signing we made when Richie came back after the whole bullying stuff in Miami.  

[Warcodered]

I don't think the Grand Jury results are as definitive as some may think.

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2022/03/11/deshaun-watson-grand-jury-wanted-to-hear-from-only-one-alleged-victim/#comments

 

Only having 1 accuser testify when multiple are willing to, with multiple cases being brought up seems like an odd decision to me.

[GunnerBill]

Just now, TheBrownBear said:

I don't care to and this isn't about that.  I agree 100% in the dictum of innocent until proven guilty.  It means that Watson has the right to move around freely in society, work, vote, etc., and unless I'm confused, he is being allowed to do all these things.  Innocence in the court of law doesn't mean we have to like the guy, root for him and financially support him.  These are two separate things.  Just ask Fred Goldman.

 

He is. But some of the posturing and grandstanding on social media has suggested he ought not and that was the point I was making when I first interjected in this thread - I understand why the Browns fans feel like they do, but we have to be careful we don't end up saying "well the justice system might say X but the court of public opinion says Y". Nobody has to like him. He has made himself very easy to dislike. 

1 minute ago, Maybe Someday said:

If someone does something horrible/illegal but there is little evidence and everyone is too afraid to testify, are they really innocent? You seem to think they are but many of us have seen it enough to logically conclude they are not.

 

To me innocence is a legal concept. If you want to debate morality go ahead, that isn't my bag. I prefer the law. It is objective, cold and devoid of emotion. 

[Chandler#81]

2 minutes ago, Albany,n.y. said:

Rogers killed 3 teens.  He was an addict whose addictions eventually killed him.  BEFORE Richie came to the Bills the 2nd time, he had served a league suspension for bullying a teammate, had multiple anger management issues going back to his college years, and had been accused of harrassing women at an event while a member of the Dolphins.  How soon you forget what a controversial signing we made when Richie came back after the whole bullying stuff in Miami.  

I haven’t forgotten sh!t. That bullying thing was a farce and frankly I derived great humor from it. “accused” of harassing a woman? Not a day goes by my wife doesn’t “accuse” me of it. 
 

Quitcher crying😒

[HappyDays]

12 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

The alternative is the NFL shuns him and the court of public opinion has essentially decided that the principle of innocent until proven guilty is irrelevant and he should lose his livelihood.

 

People have rightly pointed out that the NFL shunned Kaepernick. And I don't even blame teams for it. He would be an immediate distraction for any team that signed him. Watson is a distraction and a disgusting predator. People have lost their livelihood for much much less, and before already making millions of dollars. If it was 1 or 2 allegations I would agree with you. 22 separate allegations, and a few more that went to the media anonymously because they didn't feel like dragging themselves through the legal progress, is more than enough for me to feel okay with the NFL ostracizing him. Obviously that was never really going to happen. The Browns just went about it in an especially disgusting way and I commend their fans that have jumped ship.

 

Edited March 19, 2022 by HappyDays

[FireChans]

1 minute ago, HappyDays said:

 

People have rightly pointed out that the NFL shunned Kaepernick. And I don't even blame teams for it. He would be an immediate distraction for any team that signed him. Watson is a distraction and a disgusting predator. People have lost their livelihood for much much less, and before already making millions of dollars. If it was 1 or 2 allegations I would agree with you. 22 separate allegations, and a few more that went to the media anonymously because they didn't feel like dragging themselves through the legal progress, is more than enough for me to feel okay with the NFL ostracizing him. Obviously that was never really going to happen. The Browns just went about it in an especially disgusting way and I commend their fans that have jumped ship.

 

Their fans aren’t really going to jump ship. You know that right

[TheBrownBear]

5 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I never said anyone had to root for him. In my very first post in this topic I said that that I understood why some Browns fans felt the way they did. But I care deeply and passionately about upholding the justice system and the rule of law. It has been my career for most of the last 15 years. And that requires it to be the case that the courts are the arbiters of justice. If a person is innocent in the eyes of the law then they should be free to go about their business, however uncomfortable we may find it.  

And Watson is getting to do that and the Browns as arbiters of his NFL future apparently agree.  All our handwringing and whining about it, which we are completely entitled to in a free society, haven't changed that fact.  So, what's the issue here?

[GunnerBill]

2 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

People have rightly pointed out that the NFL shunned Kaepernick. And I don't even blame teams for it. He would be an immediate distraction for any team that signed him. Watson is a distraction and a disgusting predator. People have lost their livelihood for much much less, and before already making millions of dollars. If it was 1 or 2 allegations I would agree with you. 22 separate allegations, and a few more that went to the media anonymously because they didn't feel like dragging themselves through the legal progress, is more than enough for me to feel okay with the NFL ostracizing him. Obviously that was never really going to happen. The Browns just went about it in an especially disgusting way and I commend their fans that have jumped ship.

 

 

I disagree with you on the bolded most fundamentally. Because however you try and defend that position the reality is it means that the court of public opinion has overridden the court of law. 

[FireChans]

4 minutes ago, Chandler#81 said:

I haven’t forgotten sh!t. That bullying thing was a farce and frankly I derived great humor from it. “accused” of harassing a woman? Not a day goes by my wife doesn’t “accuse” me of it. 
 

Quitcher crying😒

Do those threads still exist? That scandal was outrageous.

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

7 hours ago, Beach said:

this reminds me of the outrage Philly had when they signed Vick.  the outrage vanished when he started winning.

 

Watson should probably be suspended for at minimum 4-6 games to start the season still. It will be a much longer process for Cleveland before they start winning.

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, TheBrownBear said:

And Watson is getting to do that and the Browns as arbiters of his NFL future apparently agree.  All our handwringing and whining about it, which we are completely entitled to in a free society, haven't changed that fact.  So, what's the issue here?

 

Ha, well I made that statement and people kept disagreeing with me on elements of it. That is why I am still here. I have not once doubted your entitlement to handwring btw.

[Warcodered]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I disagree with you on the bolded most fundamentally. Because however you try and defend that position the reality is it means that the court of public opinion has overridden the court of law. 

NFL is an entertainment industry, public opinion absolutely should factor into their decisions.

[FireChans]

4 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I disagree with you on the bolded most fundamentally. Because however you try and defend that position the reality is it means that the court of public opinion has overridden the court of law. 

GB continued to be the Most American Across The Pond.

 

This man just gets it. Too few do these days. 
 

Side note, where are all the people who were pumped about player empowerment and being able to screw over franchises? Talk about a precedent set. Watson just made the Browns get on their knees and pay his sexual assault fines.

 

”I only like it when it happens to certain people,” amirite?

Edited March 19, 2022 by FireChans