From Dawg Pound to Bills Mafia - Browns Fans Leaving for the Bills

[K D]

3 minutes ago, HamSandwhich said:

Are we sure SI isn’t biased? 

They independently fact checked the story with receipts, text messages, DM's, interviewed friends. That person was not one of the plaintiffs she just wanted to get her story out there so it doesn't happen to someone else. Also, her timeline is from prior to any other reports so all of this happened before the people who are suing him.

She had nothing to gain from telling her story to SI and she's not suing him or going to the cops. She doesn't want to ruin her business. Very believable. You should read it if you haven't

[WotAGuy]

6 minutes ago, MJS said:

Determining guilt is also something that each individual person does on a daily basis. Nobody is precluded from determining guilt in whatever matters they choose. They just don't have the power to do anything about it.

It’s not really “determining” guilt. It’s having an opinion that someone is guilty. And we know about opinions…

[HamSandwhich]

4 minutes ago, MJS said:

Determining guilt is also something that each individual person does on a daily basis. Nobody is precluded from determining guilt in whatever matters they choose. They just don't have the power to do anything about it.

There is also an element that wants to bring guilt to signal things too. To make things look a certain way to their advantage, whatever the ends may be. There is an element that can glom onto something for hopes it will get things for them or bring them game, ala Stephanik in the Kavanaugh situation. The thing is, people want to act like people don’t lie, and even more so groups of people won’t lie. They can and have throughout history. 
 

I don’t know enough about the allegations or the situations surrounding this to make a valid argument. We only know what people tell us, that’s not enough to speak intelligently on it. So maybe everyone should step back and understand that you don’t know the facts. The facts may completely exonerate him if they were to come to light. Or he could certainly be guilty, but I don’t know, I can’t know. 

 

We would be better off as a society to not jump to conclusions or destroy someone’s character because we feel a certain way based on biased information we are taking in, however it is biased.
 

That said, another QB in the AFC to be dealt with, the arms race continues!  

8 minutes ago, KDIGGZ said:

They independently fact checked the story with receipts, text messages, DM's, interviewed friends. That person was not one of the plaintiffs she just wanted to get her story out there so it doesn't happen to someone else. Also, her timeline is from prior to any other reports so all of this happened before the people who are suing him.

She had nothing to gain from telling her story to SI and she's not suing him or going to the cops. She doesn't want to ruin her business. Very believable. You should read it if you haven't

Weren’t the allegations of actual actions? Not text messages? 

[K D]

3 minutes ago, HamSandwhich said:

Weren’t the allegations of actual actions? Not text messages? 

And what kind of evidence would you like her to provide about a guy getting a private massage who acts inappropriate and gets aroused and keeps trying to get her to have sex with him? She called a friend right after it happened and she has text exchanges of her telling him she would not treat him because he acted inappropriate. All of this is from years prior to any allegations against him. So you think she was faking the text exchanges and telling her friend so that she could set him up in the future to...not sue him and get nothing out of it? Great plan on her part

[YoloinOhio]

2 hours ago, WotAGuy said:

It’s not up to me to define it. The law defines it and Watson was not charged with rape, it was sexual assault. Conflating the two I think gets to Gunner’s point about the court of public option being a slippery slope. I’m not defending Watson, but it’s a fact he was not charged with rape. 

I didn’t leave it up to you. It’s the Texas law. I meant that “if one defines it as…” because there may be other states that don’t. Also, he wasn’t “charged.” He’s being accused. 

Quote

What is the difference between sexual assault and rape?

Sexual Assault is the Texas law that is closest to the meaning of “rape.” In Texas, there is no law defining the word “rape” or an offense called rape. Under Texas law, if you are accused of rape, you would most likely be charged with Sexual Assault or Aggravated Sexual Assault. The Sexual Assault offense does not require intercourse or penetration, but instead can include only sexual contact.

https://saputo.law/criminal-law/texas/sex-crimes/sexual-assault/

[muppy]

6 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Not only not enough evidence to convict.... not enough evidence to give any reasonable prospect of conviction. That is why the grand jury didn't indict. Does that mean nothing happened? No, it doesn't but really what I believe is irrelevant. I believe that the justice system while imperfect is the best option we have for determining innocence and guilt and it is certainly better than the court of public opinion. I have spent most of the last 15 years of my career researching justice system models, looking at systems worldwide and advising governments of all political persuasions in the UK on justice system reform. I am deeply concerned about a growing trend in society towards mob mentality, driven by social media, and the court of public opinion with no checks, no balances, no objective standards replacing the justice system in terms of assessing guilt and driving punishment. 

 

And as to your final sentence, I say this honestly and sincerely, no I wouldn't. You either stand by your principles and your belief in the system or you don't. I do. However difficult the case. Indeed in a case in which a member of my family is involved currently where they have been left in an unfortunate situation (not a sexual assault  and I understand the particular sensitivity around such allegations) I have said to them that I cannot in good conscience support their position because from a pure legal perspective it doesn't make sense.

 

 

Respectfully, that is not for you to decide. That is for a court to decide. 

 

 

EDIT: And just to be clear I have said from pretty much the start of this story that I believe there is something to the allegations. But what I believe is not in any way a substitute for legal due process. A court of law decides on guilt or innocence (and on liability in civil matters) not the court of public opinion. On that point I am afraid I am totally immovable. 

I wanted to chime in regarding your views in the thread Gunner. To me it reads as if you are trying to interject logical thinking into a very emotionally divisive disgusting topic. The grand jury decisions not to pursue is also not soley based on watsons actions but what can be PROVEN........thats where it gets tricky. My own experience anecdotal to this thread if shared would be 100% truthful...but could it be proven today? NOPE. So for me the standard of proof needed to being charges isnt indicative of that guys true innocence. And thats where it will need to be decided, just where you come down on this situation using our own common sense, values and experience.  sniffffffff.........stinks.

 

m

[GunnerBill]

2 minutes ago, muppy said:

I wanted to chime in regarding your views in the thread Gunner. To me it reads as if you are trying to interject logical thinking into a very emotionally divisive disgusting topic. The grand jury decisions not to pursue is also not soley based on watsons actions but what can be PROVEN........thats where it gets tricky. My own experience anecdotal to this thread if shared would be 100% truthful...but could it be proven today? NOPE. So for me the standard of proof needed to being charges isnt indicative of that guys true innocence. And thats where it will need to be decided, just where you come down on this situation using our own common sense, values and experience.  sniffffffff.........stinks.

 

m

 

Correct I am. Justice is not about emotion. It can't be and shouldn't be. That is why we leave it to the courts not to public opinion. 

Edited March 19, 2022 by GunnerBill

[muppy]

3 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Correct I am. Justice is not about emotion. It can't be and shouldn't be. That is why we leave it to the courts not to public opinion. 

and courts and judges and prosecutors and jurors are also human with biases so lets not assume (which Im not saying you are) that this system always works and is perfect either.

 

good talk.

[CoffeeDrip]

My husband is one of the Browns fans defecting… mind you, he’s always been a secondary Bills fan as long as rooting for Buffalo wouldn’t hurt the Browns (which it normally does not). But he’s very angry - angry over the way Baker was treated, angry over Watson being brought in, angry over other off-season moves the team has made. So for now he’s just going to focus on the Bills. We’re tucking his Browns gear away for when Watson is inevitably off the team within five years and we’ll see what happens. He already owns several Bills shirts and a Diggs jersey so he’s prepared. 

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, muppy said:

and courts and judges and prosecutors and jurors are also human with biases so lets not assume (which Im not saying you are) that this system always works and is perfect either.

 

good talk.

 

Agree, the system is not perfect, it is not infallible. It is just infinitely better than the alternative. My concern is that over the last 20/30 years you are starting to see a creep towards the import into the criminal justice system of emotion. It needs to be resisted at all costs. 

[CoudyBills]

54 minutes ago, BillsVet said:

Human nature is that people are herd animals and right now that herd is in the virtue signaling of protesting against Watson.  

 

He might be the bad/twisted person that people suspect, but these things blow over and, as already stated, when/if the Browns start winning fans will go back.  

The human weakness, group think.

44 minutes ago, HamSandwhich said:

Are we sure SI isn’t biased? 

Media is unbiased, we all know this.

[4merper4mer]

My feeling Is that Watson probably committed some of the acts described based on both the sheer number of accusations and the known details about some of them. I don’t “know” anything for sure so I can understand a Browns fan being excited about the acquisition while another might be upset even to the point of switching teams.  I’m not sure why the second fan wouldn’t have switched already given Baker’s affinity for cheesecake.

[Little Dog]

11 hours ago, ndirish1978 said:

I wouldn't root for him as my QB, makes sense. 

I don’t know if he’s guilty or not. I do know he was never charged with a crime, and out 26 not one accusation stuck. The only people I hate worse than men who abuse women in any kind of way are people who abuse children in any kind of way. 

I don’t know the facts of what happened, until they come out I reserve judgment.

[qwksilver]

Goodell must be fuming due to the stain this POS QB and this POS owner have put on the NFL Shield. How sad.

 

I would have left had Vick been signed by the Bills, and he paid his dues. This POS learned nothing and got a huge pay raise. Unreal

 

Welcome to the bandwagon, there's plenty of room.

 

Edited March 19, 2022 by qwksilver

[ClaytonBillsFan]

6 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I don't believe 22 women are making it up either. But what I believe, what you believe, what anyone believes is irrelevant. We do not get to assess guilt or liability. There is a system and a process for that. Once you start saying "ah yes but in this case..." then you open any case up to others taking the same approach because they believe in something different. The justice system is imperfect, but it is a million times preferable to the court of public opinion. 

The guy is an NFL QB. He can get massages from professionals for free anytime, anyplace he wants. So trolling IG models and seeking "massages for aches and pains" when they dont do that stuff is beyond ridiculous. They estimate that about 16% of death row inmates are actually innocent so throwing blind allegiance to a known imperfect system and ignoring the eye, smell, and common sense tests is moronic. Even team masseuses said they have had to tell him No over and over and even asked the team to have other employees work with him and they arent in the 22. Yet they acknowledge that what he is accused of is his M.O. based on mutual experiences and they refused to talk to the Grand Jury because they didnt wanna lose their livelihoods. 

[LABILLBACKER]

10 hours ago, BigDingus said:

 

Big Ben got called names & had r*** jokes thrown his way his entire career over one public incident, so how does one just ignore the MANY women & dozen+ charges levied at Watson? People don't tend to overlook THAT many similar allegations. At some point, it feels like benefit of the doubt has been thoroughly burned.

2-3 women I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. 22 women,  dude you're a predator. He's going to be a pariah the rest of his career. Besides the Browns organization is just as dysfunctional as the Jets. This will be a struggle for him.

[GunnerBill]

Just now, ClaytonBillsFan said:

The guy is an NFL QB. He can get massages from professionals for free anytime, anyplace he wants. So trolling IG models and seeking "massages for aches and pains" when they dont do that stuff is beyond ridiculous. They estimate that about 16% of death row inmates are actually innocent so throwing blind allegiance to a known imperfect system and ignoring the eye, smell, and common sense tests is moronic. Even team masseuses said they have had to tell him No over and over and even asked the team to have other employees work with him and they arent in the 22. Yet they acknowledge that what he is accused of is his M.O. based on mutual experiences and they refused to talk to the Grand Jury because they didnt wanna lose their livelihoods. 

 

Again, I have never once said I don't believe the women. This is not so much about Deshaun Watson as it is about the core principles of the democracy that we live by. And I accept that the system is imperfect. But we either have a justice system and if we do we have to trust it or we delegate justice to mob rule and allow the court of public opinion to decide on guilt. I repeat that must be avoided at all costs. 

[TheBrownBear]

3 hours ago, Max Fischer said:

I understand your position in theory but find it very unfortunate and robotic, if not illogical. Let’s hope you are not running an orphanage and decide to rehire a person whom twenty-children accused of them child abuse but was not indicated. 
 

“The court of law says they are not guilty and I will not convict them in the court of public opinion. Besides the kids always liked his candy.”

Exactly.  I think GB is just digging in his heels here, but man, he comes across as incredibly obtuse and borderline autistic (I say this as someone with autistic family members).  And I'm not even sure why he's arguing for Watson's innocence or right to earn a living or whatever, since Watson is not only free, but has been given a $48 million dollar raise for sitting out a season (while still being paid) under extreme suspicion of committing some very deplorable acts.  It seems the real issue here for GB has nothing to do with the relative utility and efficiency of the criminal justice system, but some deep seated fear of the spread of the "mob mentality" (which, in reality when it comes to this case, is just people making up their minds that they don't like a guy who has been accused of sexual misconduct by 22 women).  Ask yourself this GB, if becoming a victim of opportunistic grifter women and the social media "mob" is such a readily existential threat, why aren't NFL quarterbacks being accused of sexual assault left and right (by 20+ women)?

[GunnerBill]

Just now, TheBrownBear said:

Exactly.  I think GB is just digging in his heels here, but man, he comes across as incredibly obtuse and borderline autistic (I say this as someone with autistic family members).  And I'm not even sure why he's arguing for Watson's innocence or right to earn a living or whatever, since Watson is not only free, but has been given a $48 million dollar raise for sitting out a season (while still being paid) under extreme suspicion of committing some very deplorable acts.  It seems the real issue here for GB has nothing to do with the relative utility and efficiency of the criminal justice system, but some deep seated fear of the spread of the "mob mentality" (which, in reality when it comes to this case, is just people making up their minds that they don't like a guy who has been accused of sexual misconduct by 22 women).  Ask yourself this GB, if becoming a victim of opportunistic grifter women and the social media "mob" is such a readily existential threat, why aren't NFL quarterbacks being accused of sexual assault left and right (by 20+ women)?

 

I think you should read my posts again. You seem to have a problem with comprehension. If you want to debate the utility and efficiency of the justice system with me let's do it. This is pretty much my area of expertise. 

[HappyDays]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

Deshaun Watson is an innocent man and is entitled to return to his career. The NFL may well judge that a suspension is still deserved at some stage and I would support that, but  people who are innocent in the eyes of the law are entitled to get on with their lives. 

 

Yeah he is legally entitled to get on with his life. That doesn't mean an NFL franchise has to sell the farm and give him the most guaranteed money in NFL history to woo him to their team. Especially when the contract is very specifically written to mitigate his punishment as much as possible. Watson has at the very least shown a pattern of incredibly disturbing behavior and he comes out the other side of it with generational wealth. I respect our legal system as much as anyone and I accept that the underlying principle of innocent until proven guilty will sometimes produce bad results. I don't believe in mob justice. None of that precludes me or anyone else from judging Watson for his actions or judging the Browns for theirs. We know Watson was serially finding new massage therapists online. There are a number of credible accusations that he used those sessions to get his thrills and put those women in an awful position. The man that did that is now the face of an NFL franchise. There is room in the court of public opinion for men like that to lose their status in society.

 

Edited March 19, 2022 by HappyDays