From Dawg Pound to Bills Mafia - Browns Fans Leaving for the Bills

[716er]

8 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

So now you are just mixing up concepts all over the place.... he is innocent until proven guilty and there is no indictment so he is innocent. A civil court will (unless there is a settlement) rule on his liability under the civil law. 

 

I have been consistent throughout that I believe there was a pattern of worrying behaviour here, and I don't blame anyone for feeling uncomfortable about it. But he is an innocent man, that is simply a legal reality. Whether it is a moral reality, I don't know, I don't really get into making sweeping moral judgments on others but I still suspect something likely went on. 

 

None of which changes my core point. Guilt and liability are matters for the criminal and civil courts respectively (and they are two very different legal concepts and the two courts are doing very different jobs). They are not matters for the court of public opinion and down that road leads disaster. Deshaun Watson is an innocent man and is entitled to return to his career. The NFL may well judge that a suspension is still deserved at some stage and I would support that, but  people who are innocent in the eyes of the law are entitled to get on with their lives. 

 

He should be able to live his life as an innocent man and the public should be able to see him as the piece of crap he is. Nothing wrong with that. It's karma for what he did.

[MJS]

4 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

That's fine, I get it. Modern society decides what it thinks and sticks to it whatever. I don't want a society that gets away from the principles of innocent until proven guilty and one that believes in due process. That means standing up for those things (and let me be clear that it is those principles I am standing up for not Deshaun Watson) even when it is unpopular to do so. 

Browns fans aren't a court of law and don't need to presume innocence until proven guilty.

[longtimebillsfan]

8 hours ago, BuffaloBillsGospel said:

Do we really want to let the factory of sadness fans in? That would be like the cooler in Vegas standing next to you at the craps table. 

We have always had a great relationship with the Browns fan base.   We welcome all Browns fans with open arms.

[GunnerBill]

4 minutes ago, MJS said:

Browns fans aren't a court of law and don't need to presume innocence until proven guilty.

 

They are entitled to think whatever they like and take whatever decisions they wish with their own money, I said that right back at the start. I understand the way they feel but the presumption applies to society not just to a court. The legal default whether people like it or not is that he is innocent. 

[716er]

Just now, GunnerBill said:

The legal default whether people like it or not is that he is innocent. 

 

Not sure anyone has argued this, though.

[MJS]

Just now, GunnerBill said:

 

They are entitled to think whatever they like and take whatever decisions they wish with their own money, I said that right back at the start. I understand the way they feel but the presumption applies to society not just to a court. The legal default whether people like it or not is that he is innocent. 

It actually does not apply to society at all. It ONLY applies to courts. It has only ever applied to courts.

 

You can choose to apply that same standard to yourself if you want, but society is not required to take that stance. Browns fans are fully entitled and justified to believe the 20+ women who are accusing him.

 

And it obviously makes everyone wonder if Watson would be treated the same way by the courts if he wasn't a rich and famous sports figure. Joe down the street maybe gets indicted. And if you are going to claim that the rich and famous and elites of this world are not treated differently by the courts, we are just going to have to agree to disagree.

[BillsVet]

Human nature is that people are herd animals and right now that herd is in the virtue signaling of protesting against Watson.  

 

He might be the bad/twisted person that people suspect, but these things blow over and, as already stated, when/if the Browns start winning fans will go back.  

[fergie's ire]

Mike Ryan of the Le Batard Show has always been a very vocal Browns fan.  However, he has announced that he is done with them and is a fan free agent.  Might be fun to recruit him.  Maybe he has a charity we could support?

 

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, MJS said:

It actually does not apply to society at all. It ONLY applies to courts. It has only ever applied to courts.

 

You can choose to apply that same standard to yourself if you want, but society is not required to take that stance. Browns fans are fully entitled and justified to believe the 20+ women who are accusing him.

 

And it obviously makes everyone wonder if Watson would be treated the same way by the courts if he wasn't a rich and famous sports figure. Joe down the street maybe gets indicted. And if you are going to claim that the rich and famous and elites of this world are not treated differently by the courts, we are just going to have to agree to disagree.

 

It is a principle of the law that governs society and therefore the principle is embedded in the governance of a nation. It is established in case law in the US developed out of the interpretation of your written constitution. 

 

Browns fans are entitled to believe what they wish. Their belief is an irrelevance. 

[sullim4]

4 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

That's fine, I get it. Modern society decides what it thinks and sticks to it whatever. I don't want a society that gets away from the principles of innocent until proven guilty and one that believes in due process. That means standing up for those things (and let me be clear that it is those principles I am standing up for not Deshaun Watson) even when it is unpopular to do so. 

 

When it comes to throwing someone in jail, I agree with you, innocent until proven guilty.

 

When it comes to being a prominent public figure - the literal face of an organization, the standard is a lot lower.  It becomes a distraction for the organization.  It's why Cuomo resigned, it's why CEOs embroiled in sex scandals resign.  The fact that the Browns signed this guy to one of the largest contracts in NFL history, who has serious unresolved legal matters before him, and who structured his contract so he wouldn't lose pay should he be suspended by the league, I just don't know what to say.  They have no idea whether he's guilty or not -- but if the league determines he's guilty enough to be suspended, the Browns have ensured he will receive his money.  What a sick, twisted way to do business.

 

The Browns deserve every bit of criticism they're getting right now.  I welcome their fans with open arms.

[Real McClappy]

I'd have zero issues welcoming in Browns fans due to this matter as well.

 

If our FO pulled some crap like this I could no longer stand behind the team that I have been die hard for since 83.

[GunnerBill]

Just now, sullim4 said:

 

When it comes to throwing someone in jail, I agree with you, innocent until proven guilty.

 

When it comes to being a prominent public figure - the literal face of an organization, the standard is a lot lower.  It becomes a distraction for the organization.  It's why Cuomo resigned, it's why CEOs embroiled in sex scandals resign.  The fact that the Browns signed this guy to one of the largest contracts in NFL history, who has serious unresolved legal matters before him, and who structured his contract so he wouldn't lose pay should he be suspended by the league, I just don't know what to say.  They have no idea whether he's guilty or not -- but if the league determines he's guilty enough to be suspended, the Browns have ensured he will receive his money.  What a sick, twisted way to do business.

 

The Browns deserve every bit of criticism they're getting right now.  I welcome their fans with open arms.

 

Again, guilt is not determined by the NFL either. Guilt is a legal concept of the criminal law. Only a criminal court can find someone guilty. 

[Don Otreply]

1 hour ago, nedboy7 said:

 

Take a look at who is rotting in the prisons of America.  America has a prison industrial complex problem.  Welcome to democracy. 

What’s the option???

[RunTheBall]

Maybe it’s because we form such an emotional bond with our team that I can’t understand, and don’t believe, that true fans can just cut off their fandom and pick another team to root for and Cleveland has great fans. I think most are just venting.

 

If this were Buffalo and I was that much against signing Watson, I’d just stop watching the Bills and wouldn’t support them with my cash. When they got rid of him, I’d probably be back (but not happy they could make such a stupid move to begin with).

 

There’s no way I could pick another team and say “This is my team now” and feel 1% the passion towards that team. It’s in the blood.

 

 

[MJS]

3 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

Again, guilt is not determined by the NFL either. Guilt is a legal concept of the criminal law. Only a criminal court can find someone guilty. 

Anyone can determine guilt. Only a court can punish someone for guilt, so a court is held to a higher standard.

[GunnerBill]

Just now, MJS said:

Anyone can determine guilt. Only a court can punish someone for guilt, so a court is held to a higher standard.

 

Determining guilt and punishing guilt are both matters for the court. 

[HamSandwhich]

6 hours ago, KDIGGZ said:

Definitely not an innocent man, just not enough evidence to convict. He's a sick individual. Read the sports illustrated article. Do you think OJ didn't do it too? If it was your wife or girlfriend or sister who was sexually assaulted I bet you would feel much differently

Are we sure SI isn’t biased? 

[muppy]

4 hours ago, babulator said:

I get this 100%. I would not have been able to root for AB had we signed him a few years back. There's  handful of other folks that I could in no way get behind.

when teams swing for the fences to attain a coveted player, a player of that high a compensatory value, imo they can and Must vet this person to make sure he will meet the needs and accomplish what is required which is in the nfl WIN.  That's what matters right folks? Alledegly**** @-@  JUST WIN BABY. I mean I get it on a certain level. I want a Lombardi trophy for WNY too. Being female I have to admit it is gratifying to read the disdain and disgust with a person with those kinds of allegations floating around. .....but doesn't winning cure all ills ...if watson excels in cleveland will the throng that left return? Im tryin g to frame this as if it were MY team going through this.  Recently a discussion came up re: Gronk and some how fans felt about He coming to WNY conceivably. I think there would have been a part of the fanbase needing to swallow their disgust and rationalize that now He is "Our" scumbag..or in the case of watson "our" pervert.

 

People and their convictions are personal. I say welcome aboard fans from Cleveland. Just don't jump off if your team begin to win again. As far as watson is concerned the entire situation makes me want to scoff at BOTH teams frankly. I didn't follow the assault allegations thread but that is a LOT of allegations and a lot of smoke too but decided no fire?

 

snifffff I dont like the smell of it at alllll......I feel bad for the Brown fans for being dragged into this Mess.

Edited March 19, 2022 by muppy

[MJS]

Just now, GunnerBill said:

 

Determining guilt and punishing guilt are both matters for the court. 

Determining guilt is also something that each individual person does on a daily basis. Nobody is precluded from determining guilt in whatever matters they choose. They just don't have the power to do anything about it.

[GunnerBill]

Just now, MJS said:

Determining guilt is also something that each individual person does on a daily basis. Nobody is precluded from determining guilt in whatever matters they choose. They just don't have the power to do anything about it.

 

People can have a view of something somebody has or hasn't done but when I talk about guilt I talk about it as a legal concept of the criminal law. It is a matter for a criminal court and only a criminal court. It is not a matter for the court of public opinion. People can believe whatever they like. They can choose to act in whatever way they like on the basis of that, but it doesn't change the legal reality.