Ryan "Rick" Bates Watch Thread

[Einstein]

16 minutes ago, Doc said:

What I surmise is that Beane had an idea of Bates' true value but Bates asked for way more, so he slapped the lowest tender figuring he'd match any offer in a certain price range.

 

Perhaps this is one of the many reasons why he is an NFL gm and I am not, but I find it hard to reconcile that he would want the player on the team at $2.3 million, but not $3.3 million?

 

The difference is so slight that it doesn’t make sense to me.

 

 

[ColoradoBills]

15 minutes ago, Doc said:

They can find the money to add him if they want.  What I surmise is that Beane had an idea of Bates' true value but Bates asked for way more, so he slapped the lowest tender figuring he'd match any offer in a certain price range.

 

This is what I have been saying.

Also, if Beane did the 2nd round tender for $4M and Bates accepted he would have to go through this whole thing again next

year when Bates is a UFA.  If Bates played well his price would then go up even more.

 

I'm going to give this time and see what is really happening.

[Einstein]

1 minute ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

This is what I have been saying.

Also, if Beane did the 2nd round tender for $4M and Bates accepted he would have to go through this whole thing again next

year when Bates is a UFA.  If Bates played well his price would then go up even more.

 

I would label that as a good problem to have.

[strive_for_five_guy]

1 hour ago, Don Otreply said:

The odd thing about Bates analysis by the Bills coaches is that he played as well or better than who he replaced on the O line, yet he was benched when those guys were able to play again, happened repeatedly, we could certainly stand to re-sign him, I don’t understand their reluctance, oh well, 

From a playing time standpoint, my belief is that McDermott has a philosophy of milking the vets as long as he can, in order to give the younger guys more time to develop their fundamentals and earn the playing time.  Examples in my mind have included Peterman over Josh, Gore over Singletary, Sanders over Gabe, the Bates situation, etc.  Only when things like injury or the stakes force his hand, does he put his best hand on the table.  Could be wrong, although that’s my best guess.

[MrEpsYtown]

2 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Dude, you've presented yourself as knowing OL and having serious cred in OL evaluation, but IMHO this is a straight up "listen to the fans, wind up sitting with them" revisionist history take.

 

We all know that high RAS doesn't make a functional NFL OLman.  It indicates potential.  They need to have blocking technique.  They need intimate knowledge of all the protection calls and their variations for different defensive looks.

 

Anderson was signed off our PS by Philly after Game 2, where we thumped the Dolphins 35-0.  Feliciano was starting at that point.

 

No aspect of Anderson's preseason play led any of the press or fans watching at the time to flag him as an immediate NFL starter.  Nor did it impress the coaches that way, since they cut him and put him on the practice squad to develop.  He was neither the starter, nor the 2nd nor 3rd string at that point and no one watching the pre-season from the fan seats had a question with that based on what we saw.

 

Anderson went on to start one (1) game for the Eagles, Week 17 where they were resting some starters and lost to Dallas 26-51.  Other than that, he got 7 snaps a couple weeks previous, I don't know whether that was as a 6th OL or substituting for an injury.

 

There's a very valid point that the Bills should have upgraded on OL last season more than they did.  Very valid. 

 

But to suggest cutting Feliciano (a guy who has proven he can play at an NFL level at both OG positions and at C, albeit not at the level we want) to elevate a 7th round draft pick to the active roster after week 2 this season because he has a better RAS - C'mon Man, that's not rational knowledge-based OL e v a l.

 

 

Again, as others have said - we need to use a high draft pick on an OG regardless of whether or not Bates leaves.  We arguably should have done so last off-season.

(I'm not going to say 1st or 2nd round because I don't know what the general assessment of depth in the draft at OL may be)

 

Saffold for 1 year is NOT a long-range IOL plan.

I hear you. But I would have cut Feliciano before the season started. He has done nothing here besides cost us young players with upside. 
 

I would have started the season Dawkins-Boettger-Morse-Bates-Williams. Brown obviously took Williams job. But that was the combination I liked goin in. Probably flip Bates and Boettger. I would have kept Anderson, Doyle, Brown as the backups. I also would have kept Forrest Lamp for his upside, he was hurt all training camp. I really liked the three athletic young guys in Brown, Anderson, Doyle. My analysis of Feliciano is that he should have been gone two years ago. 

[MrEpsYtown]

2 hours ago, BuffaninSarasota said:

 

asking a question to those who may know more about OL play on a technical level; is there a huge difference between playing LG/RG (other than being on a strong side with a TE) ?

 

since Bates is lauded nonstop for his positional versatility, flexibility, and smarts, why would RG not be a seamless transition for him?

Ideas about this are all over the place, but the strong side player will typically lineup against the three technique and will therefore be in a 1 on 1 pass wise. Typically offenses will slide to the left to protect the blindside of the QB, which in turn leaves the RG and RT in one on ones. So you would want those guys to be athletic. 
 

Conventionally, the right side is the power side and the left is the athletic side, but with spread offenses becoming more the norm, it doesn’t really matter. The new norm is that everyone on the line needs to be athletic, and that’s why we are seeing RAS numbers being a thing. Its not the be all end all, and as @Hapless Bills Fan has pointed out, there have been athletic linemen who are terrible. See Andre Dillard. 

 

Specifically to Bates, he should be more comfortable on the left side since he played a ton of left tackle in college. But he has been a swing back up for most of his career which means he would have developed skills on both sides. 

[BuffaninSarasota]

16 minutes ago, MrEpsYtown said:

Ideas about this are all over the place, but the strong side player will typically lineup against the three technique and will therefore be in a 1 on 1 pass wise. Typically offenses will slide to the left to protect the blindside of the QB, which in turn leaves the RG and RT in one on ones. So you would want those guys to be athletic. 
 

Conventionally, the right side is the power side and the left is the athletic side, but with spread offenses becoming more the norm, it doesn’t really matter. The new norm is that everyone on the line needs to be athletic, and that’s why we are seeing RAS numbers being a thing. Its not the be all end all, and as @Hapless Bills Fan has pointed out, there have been athletic linemen who are terrible. See Andre Dillard. 

 

Specifically to Bates, he should be more comfortable on the left side since he played a ton of left tackle in college. But he has been a swing back up for most of his career which means he would have developed skills on both sides. 

Thanks for the detailed reply @MrEpsYtown….!

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, Einstein said:

 

Perhaps this is one of the many reasons why he is an NFL gm and I am not, but I find it hard to reconcile that he would want the player on the team at $2.3 million, but not $3.3 million?

 

The difference is so slight that it doesn’t make sense to me.

 

Where did this $3.3M figure come from?

 

Has someone come out with figures from the Bears offer sheet?

 

 

[BillsFanForever19]

While I don't think we're going to match it, I find it interesting Beane hasn't said 'yay' or 'nay' by now. Makes me think he's looking into his other options and isn't 100% one way or the other yet.

[Don Otreply]

1 hour ago, strive_for_five_guy said:

From a playing time standpoint, my belief is that McDermott has a philosophy of milking the vets as long as he can, in order to give the younger guys more time to develop their fundamentals and earn the playing time.  Examples in my mind have included Peterman over Josh, Gore over Singletary, Sanders over Gabe, the Bates situation, etc.  Only when things like injury or the stakes force his hand, does he put his best hand on the table.  Could be wrong, although that’s my best guess.

It is confusing isn’t it, 

[Einstein]

31 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Where did this $3.3M figure come from?

 

Has someone come out with figures from the Bears offer sheet?

 

 

 

$3.3 million is the cost of a 2nd round tender.

$2.2 million is the cost of the tender the Bills gave Bates.

 

For $1M more, the Bears or Vikings would have had to send the Bills a 2nd round pick to sign him. Which probably wouldn’t happen. So we would have him in 2022 for $3.3M.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

3 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

$3.3 million is the cost of a 2nd round tender.

$2.2 million is the cost of the tender the Bills gave Bates.

 

Neither are correct

 

https://www.profootballnetwork.com/nfl-franchise-tag-values-rfa-tenders/

 

Quote

Right of First Refusal: $2,433,000

Original-Round Tender: $2,540,000

Second-Round Tender: $3,986,000

First-Round Tender: $5,432,000

 

Bates ROFR tender is on the Bills cap right now for $2.4M

2nd round tender is essentially $4M, or $1.6M higher

 

For $4.2M cap charge this year, Bills signed Rodger Saffold. 

They evidently think Rodger Saffold is worth $0.2M more than Ryan Bates at LG.

 

The question of course is who do we play at RG

[Einstein]

8 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Neither are correct

 

https://www.profootballnetwork.com/nfl-franchise-tag-values-rfa-tenders/

 

 

Bates ROFR tender is on the Bills cap right now for $2.4M

2nd round tender is essentially $4M, or $1.6M higher

 

For $4.2M cap charge this year, Bills signed Rodger Saffold. 

They evidently think Rodger Saffold is worth $0.2M more than Ryan Bates at LG.

 

The question of course is who do we play at RG

 

I didn’t realize they increased. I was using last years (2021) numbers:

 

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

17 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

I didn’t realize they increased. I was using last years (2021) numbers:

 

 

 

Rise every year, just like the price of fuel right now.

 

If you plug the numbers into your argument, and say OK so for $1.6M more we could have Bates - does it look the same to you?

[SCBills]

1 hour ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

While I don't think we're going to match it, I find it interesting Beane hasn't said 'yay' or 'nay' by now. Makes me think he's looking into his other options and isn't 100% one way or the other yet.

Seems like gamesmanship IMO.  You want to go after one of our tendered guys, that’s fine, now you can tie your money up for 5 days and wait to see if you get him or not. 

[Sierra Foothills]

An excerpt from The Athletic writer Ted Nguyen's article: 5 top NFC free-agent signings for value and fit

 

Nguyen has Feliciano rated his 3rd best NFL value/fit free agent signing after Jameis Winston and DJ Chark.

 

New York Giants: Jon Feliciano, C

Contract: One year, $3.25 million ($2.4 million)

Average annual value rank: 20th (among centers)

Scheme: Spread, heavy pass

Jon Feliciano has been plagued by injuries in the past couple of seasons. The Bills asked him to take a pay cut but he refused and was released. He has experience playing left guard, center, right guard and he’s even returned a kickoff — he probably won’t be doing that last part often but never say never. He’s expected to play center for the Giants.

He played for head coach Brian Daboll with the Bills so he knows the system and understands what Daboll is looking for on the field and off the field. If he can stay healthy, he’ll bring leadership, intelligence and toughness to an offensive line that has been among the league’s worst for a long time. I love the idea of bringing him and plugging him into a leadership position for the offensive line. Having a center that quarterback Daniel Jones could trust to sort out protections will be huge for him as he attempts to live up to his first-round billing.

 

4th was Logan Ryan and 5th was Casey Hayward.

[NastyNateSoldiers]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Neither are correct

 

https://www.profootballnetwork.com/nfl-franchise-tag-values-rfa-tenders/

 

 

Bates ROFR tender is on the Bills cap right now for $2.4M

2nd round tender is essentially $4M, or $1.6M higher

 

For $4.2M cap charge this year, Bills signed Rodger Saffold. 

They evidently think Rodger Saffold is worth $0.2M more than Ryan Bates at LG.

 

The question of course is who do we play at RG

They value 4th string DTs over 5mil per season .  So who knows what’s the thinking in that. I rather give a starting guard that played his tail off towards the end of yr and can play 4 spots on the Oline 4mil then give it to a rotational piece on the dline .

38 minutes ago, Sierra Foothills said:

An excerpt from The Athletic writer Ted Nguyen's article: 5 top NFC free-agent signings for value and fit

 

Nguyen has Feliciano rated his 3rd best NFL value/fit free agent signing after Jameis Winston and DJ Chark.

 

New York Giants: Jon Feliciano, C

Contract: One year, $3.25 million ($2.4 million)

Average annual value rank: 20th (among centers)

Scheme: Spread, heavy pass

Jon Feliciano has been plagued by injuries in the past couple of seasons. The Bills asked him to take a pay cut but he refused and was released. He has experience playing left guard, center, right guard and he’s even returned a kickoff — he probably won’t be doing that last part often but never say never. He’s expected to play center for the Giants.

He played for head coach Brian Daboll with the Bills so he knows the system and understands what Daboll is looking for on the field and off the field. If he can stay healthy, he’ll bring leadership, intelligence and toughness to an offensive line that has been among the league’s worst for a long time. I love the idea of bringing him and plugging him into a leadership position for the offensive line. Having a center that quarterback Daniel Jones could trust to sort out protections will be huge for him as he attempts to live up to his first-round billing.

 

4th was Logan Ryan and 5th was Casey Hayward.

I always thought Feliciano was much better as a center then a guard. He should be a steal for the Gmen

[longtimebillsfan]

3 hours ago, strive_for_five_guy said:

From a playing time standpoint, my belief is that McDermott has a philosophy of milking the vets as long as he can, in order to give the younger guys more time to develop their fundamentals and earn the playing time.  Examples in my mind have included Peterman over Josh, Gore over Singletary, Sanders over Gabe, the Bates situation, etc.  Only when things like injury or the stakes force his hand, does he put his best hand on the table.  Could be wrong, although that’s my best guess.

Excellent analysis!

[Hapless Bills Fan]

17 minutes ago, NastyNateSoldiers said:

They value 4th string DTs over 5mil per season .  So who knows what’s the thinking in that. I rather give a starting guard that played his tail off towards the end of yr and can play 4 spots on the Oline 4mil then give it to a rotational piece on the dline .

 

Everyone on the DL is a rotational piece.

 

There's a confliction in what you say. 

 

We signed a DT for arguably more than $6M/season, but he took 60% or more of the snaps at DT his last two seasons, so he wasn't by any stretch a 4th string. 

We signed a DT who was arguably #2 on the depth chart all season, but we didn't sign him for $5M a season (try half that)

So I'm really not sure who you're talking about

 

It also seems like you're defining a guy who started the season down the depth chart but may have moved up it and started a couple games as a "4th string" on another team, but a guy who started the season as #3 on the Bills depth chart at G as a starter.  Not a problem, just seems kinda inconsistant

 

3 hours ago, strive_for_five_guy said:

From a playing time standpoint, my belief is that McDermott has a philosophy of milking the vets as long as he can, in order to give the younger guys more time to develop their fundamentals and earn the playing time.  Examples in my mind have included Peterman over Josh, Gore over Singletary, Sanders over Gabe, the Bates situation, etc.  Only when things like injury or the stakes force his hand, does he put his best hand on the table.  Could be wrong, although that’s my best guess.

 

I don't think McDermott in any way shape or form keeps guys whom he views as his "best hand" on the bench in favor of milking vets.

 

I think he does sometimes make mistakes.  Peterman was one of them.

 

IMO (no evidence for this) sometimes I think they promise vets like Gore or Sanders a certain amount of playing time if they sign here.

[Chandler#81]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Rise every year, just like the price of fuel right now.

 

Actually, it’s dropping. Rather significantly. From $4.49 last Monday to $3.98 today. But it’s more volatile than Ukraine..  🇺🇦