Trading Edmunds makes no sense at this point

[DrDawkinstein]

8 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

When you say Klein it doesn’t help your argument. Edmunds doesn’t miss much time. Klein has filled in the Milano role mostly. We’ve not seen the Bills defense without Edmunds very much. 
 

The missed tackle vs fournette stands out but there’s not many of those plays. 

 

I am specifically referring to the 2 games Klein filled in for Edmunds. One being the Colts which was our worst D performance. And the other being against the Jets, where Klein played well, but you'll all just say "yeah, but it was the Jets". The Colts were going to run all over us whether it was Klein or Edmunds in the middle.

 

There are too many bad/missed/broken tackles, the Fournette is just the easiest example to remember without digging through tape (which I aint doin). But on that play alone, it would have stopped their drive, and likely change the outcome of the game. I know a lot of other things factored into that loss, but there was a play that Edmunds could have stepped up, made a play (a simple tackle at that) and had a positive impact on the game. And he... just... didnt...

 

Anyways, I'm bowing out of this thread. Good discussion, but we're all just re-re-re-arguing our opinions which wont change. It's up to Edmunds to prove it on the field now. I truly hope he does.

 

10 minutes ago, FarrellsFinest said:

We can agree to disagree. Imagine people being this hard on Matt Milano at 23 years old when he couldnt beat out Ramon Humber.

 

The age is a bad stat/excuse. How about Josh after 4 years in the league, or Milano after 4 years in the league. When does it click for Edmunds?

[Alphadawg7]

44 minutes ago, BullBuchanan said:

Even if that's true, which I don't believe it is, you understand that it doesn't matter right? If we use him in a way that makes him perform poorly, or he performs poorly strictly on merit, it's undeniable that MLB performance is a problem for this team. If you aren't going to dump Frazier (they aren't), then you have to find a player that can do what Frazier is asking him to do. It has to be extremely clear over Edmunds' career that he's incapable of doing that. He's barely even flashed any potential and he's had 4 full seasons to show us what he can do.

It's time to move on.

 

Yet GM's, players, our own staff, defensive coordinators, opponents etc all say differently.  So theres that too.  He isnt perfect, but he isnt nearly as bad as you and others make him out to be.

[DrDawkinstein]

14 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Yet the people who know a lot more about football than all of us here are always praising just how well he does his "job".  So theres that too.  And not just his teammates, opponents, defensive coordinators, even our new signees.  

 

In fact, you will be hard pressed to find anyone who analyzes players professionally or plays the game professionally that will be anywhere near as negative about him as people here.  If you listen to TSW, they call him a bust on the regular, and want him gone immediately.  Its a joke the level of criticism he gets here.  

 

That doesn't mean he cant get better or hasn't missed plays.  It means, the negativity here is more often than not way over the top and over exaggerated.  And while there are people who understand his role and are still critical, many do not and you can tell by just reading the grossly over exaggerated hot takes and comments they spew out constantly.  

 

We are talking about a guy who gets beat up after wins where he played quite well...they still in threads bashing his play that game.

 

Its totally fair to question what he is worth or what we should pay him, and if that fits into your future plans.  But the level of hate he gets is beyond unreasonable.   

 

All those people you point to always/only praise other players publicly. Folks here reference all the praise Saleh heaped on Edmunds before a game last year, but that's what HCs do all the time. They never give bulletin board material. And the praise is always overstated.

 

Like Ive already said, the Cover1 guys did a great job at explaining/excusing a lot of his plays that look bad, but werent his fault or responsibility. I get it.

 

But I put ZERO value into praise from coaches, teammates, talking heads. They all have ulterior motives, they arent there to tell the full truth.

[Mango]

1 hour ago, Clyde Smith said:

All this talent around him and his college buddy starting in front of him now. I expect Maine to ball out this season. We might be singing a different tune about him next season. Wasn't too long ago Oliver and Knox was the whipping boys.

 

1 hour ago, FilthyBeast said:

It actually does make sense for a number of reasons that have been beat to death including but not limited to:

 

- $12 million in cap space free immediately

- would likely get a 2nd round pick at minimum (possibly more)

- can sign Wagner or other stop gap LB much cheaper, wagner (and others) would be instant upgrade/at worse lateral move.

- despite all the cap maneuvering we aren't going to be able to keep everyone and no way I'm paying $15 - $20 million a season for a guy like Edmunds starting in 2023.

 

At this point he probably stays but still think it's very possible he's moved soon especially the longer guys like Wagner stay on the market.

 

 

 

I like Edmunds, but would also like to upgrade the position. Part of me is afraid to see him kill it elsewhere. But that might be some Bills fan PTSD. 

If I am the FO, even if Edmunds kills it this year and I want to bring him back, I think his value is already diminished. His agent will say, "Tremaine is coming off a crazy year". My response would be, "Yeah, all it took was to draft 4 DL in the firs two rounds and go out and spend $17.5M AAV on Von Miller. We have spent most of our resources for 2-3 offseasons on front 7 talent"

[Rock-A-Bye Beasley]

From Joe Marino:

 

"A high school wide receiver and safety, Darrian Beavers started his college career at UConn before transferring to Cincinnati ahead of the 2019 season. In addition to football, Beavers lettered in basketball and track in high school while boasting a 4.0 GPA. Since transferring to the Bearcats program, Beavers has fully developed into an impact defensive playmaker on one of the best defenses in the nation. Beavers is a physical and aggressive defender that is interchangeable at linebacker on the second level and can serve as a 3-4 outside linebacker in odd fronts. Beavers is a smart processor that understands run fits, rush angles, and zone coverage drops. He has the mass, power, and length to stack and shed blocks against the run and power through rush angles as a pass rusher. When it comes to areas of concern, Beavers isn’t the type of linebacker that should be used frequently in man coverage or deeper zone drops. While he is fully capable of making plays to the sideline, he isn’t an overly explosive athlete when it comes to lateral mobility and change of direction skills. Beavers is highly regarded for his football character and how he’s taken ownership in his development as a player. His style of play translates well to hybrid-front defenses and surely the Bill Belichick disciples will gravitate toward his skill set. In year one, I can see Beavers claiming a role for his defense and making an impact on special teams, where he has considerable experience in four phases. By year two or three, Beavers has the makings of a core member of an NFL defense that brings a tone-setting presence, consistent instincts, a clear understanding of his role, and versatility to the table."

 

He could probably be be had with our 2nd round pick, and IMO would be an immediate upgrade at much lower cost. Use the money saved on a veteran CB or WR.

 

If you're concerned about his pass coverage:

"Pass Coverage Ability: Beavers is sound in zone coverage. He does well to read the backfield, work into throwing lanes, and close. His background as a safety and wide receiver in high school shows up when he has a chance to break on the football. With that said, tasking him with defending large quantities and frequent reps in man coverage aren’t likely to yield favorable results. 

 

https://thedraftnetwork.com/player/darrian-beavers/Tc1KUfFhWl

[Florida Bills Fanatic]

I'm going to reserve my opinion on Edmunds until I see some decent d-line play in front of him.  Both Edmunds and Milano have been hampered by some really bad play in front of them.  Both of those guys routinely have the DT's pushed back into them, preventing pursuit to the ball.  I think some of the recent d-line signings will improve the underlying problem.  If Edmunds still struggles, it will be time to move on.

[Alphadawg7]

5 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

All those people you point to always/only praise other players publicly. Folks here reference all the praise Saleh heaped on Edmunds before a game last year, but that's what HCs do all the time. They never give bulletin board material. And the praise is always overstated.

 

Like Ive already said, the Cover1 guys did a great job at explaining/excusing a lot of his plays that look bad, but werent his fault or responsibility. I get it.

 

But I put ZERO value into praise from coaches, teammates, talking heads. They all have ulterior motives, they arent there to tell the full truth.

 

I get what you are saying, but its also kind of an inaccurate thing to say.  They dont heap praise on Milano they way they do Edmunds or really other players.  In fact, Edmunds is probably he most often mentioned player in our defense by those people.  In fact, the guys that most often get pointed out with praise are Edmunds, White, Hyde and Poyer.  

 

They don't have to mention Edmunds, yet they do on the regular.  

[BullBuchanan]

4 minutes ago, Mango said:

If I am the FO, even if Edmunds kills it this year and I want to bring him back, I think his value is already diminished. His agent will say, "Tremaine is coming off a crazy year". My response would be, "Yeah, all it took was to draft 4 DL in the firs two rounds and go out and spend $17.5M AAV on Von Miller. We have spent most of our resources for 2-3 offseasons on front 7 talent"

I'm in a similar boat. At this point, there's almost nothing Edmunds can do to redeem the wasted investment in him. if he goes out there and kills it this year, he'll want to be paid like a top LB, despite giving us nothing the first four years when he was on a controlled deal. Now, we pay him based off limited performance and we have to guess if everything clicked for him or if he just had a good year? No thanks.

I thought Phillips was the same way, and I get an uneasy feeling about Oliver for the same reason. Showing up on year 3 is way better than year 5 though.

[FarrellsFinest]

14 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

I am specifically referring to the 2 games Klein filled in for Edmunds. One being the Colts which was our worst D performance. And the other being against the Jets, where Klein played well, but you'll all just say "yeah, but it was the Jets". The Colts were going to run all over us whether it was Klein or Edmunds in the middle.

 

There are too many bad/missed/broken tackles, the Fournette is just the easiest example to remember without digging through tape (which I aint doin). But on that play alone, it would have stopped their drive, and likely change the outcome of the game. I know a lot of other things factored into that loss, but there was a play that Edmunds could have stepped up, made a play (a simple tackle at that) and had a positive impact on the game. And he... just... didnt...

 

Anyways, I'm bowing out of this thread. Good discussion, but we're all just re-re-re-arguing our opinions which wont change. It's up to Edmunds to prove it on the field now. I truly hope he does.

 

 

The age is a bad stat/excuse. How about Josh after 4 years in the league, or Milano after 4 years in the league. When does it click for Edmunds?

Well he is a 2x pro bowler so...i get it you want him to be even better. All im saying is i think he will even meet your expectations if you wrote them down before the season. As a matter a fact what would be exceptable for you sir?  Just so i can throw it in your face after the season and you still want him gone.

[DrDawkinstein]

2 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

I get what you are saying, but its also kind of an inaccurate thing to say.  They dont heap praise on Milano they way they do Edmunds or really other players.  In fact, Edmunds is probably he most often mentioned player in our defense by those people.  In fact, the guys that most often get pointed out with praise are Edmunds, White, Hyde and Poyer.  

 

They don't have to mention Edmunds, yet they do on the regular.  

 

Because Edmunds plays so much better than Milano, or because Edmunds is the more hyped 1st round pick bigger name?

 

Either way, I'm not putting stock in any of the PR. I find far more value in the Cover1 breakdowns which actually disect plays to soften my criticisms of Edmunds, over people giving coach-speak to the media.

[Mango]

1 minute ago, BullBuchanan said:

I'm in a similar boat. At this point, there's almost nothing Edmunds can do to redeem the wasted investment in him. if he goes out there and kills it this year, he'll want to be paid like a top LB, despite giving us nothing the first four years when he was on a controlled deal. Now, we pay him based off limited performance and we have to guess if everything clicked for him or if he just had a good year? No thanks.

I thought Phillips was the same way, and I get an uneasy feeling about Oliver for the same reason. Showing up on year 3 is way better than year 5 though.

 

 

I don't think he gave us nothing. He has been decent, but we need more. I think the Edmunds situation starts to become difficult if he is willing to take a deal comparable to Milano. 

I wouldn't put Oliver in that boat. I thin he has gotten better every single year he has been here. Right now the 5th year and pending extension feels like a no brainer. 

[DrDawkinstein]

1 minute ago, FarrellsFinest said:

Well he is a 2x pro bowler

 

Worthless. Everyone here knows Pro Bowls are a joke when Josh doesnt even make it. And Edmunds has only ever made it as an alternative.

 

1 minute ago, FarrellsFinest said:

All im saying is i think he will even meet your expectations if you wrote them down before the season. As a matter a fact what would be exceptable for you sir? 

 

Already documented what I want to see earlier in the thread with real stat examples.

 

1 minute ago, FarrellsFinest said:

Just so i can throw it in your face after the season and you still want him gone.

 

Way to be a d!ck about it when no one else here is. WhoTF are you anyways?

[MrEpsYtown]

I remain in steadfast, if you believe in him, extend him now so that you can include the guaranteed money from this year that is already on the books. If you aren’t going to extend him, trade him now. Simple as that imo. I mean 13 mill for one year is like top 5 money at that position. 
 

Note to self, do not draft off ball linebackers, Oline other than LT, or elite at c-g-rt, safeties, or tight ends in the first round of the draft because you wind up paying ridiculous option number. Draft defensive linemen, receivers, and corners.

[FarrellsFinest]

2 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Worthless. Everyone here knows Pro Bowls are a joke when Josh doesnt even make it. And Edmunds has only ever made it as an alternative.

 

 

Already documented what I want to see earlier in the thread with real stat examples.

 

 

Way to be a d!ck about it when no one else here is. WhoTF are you anyways?

Im just a random nobody fan like you giving my 2 cents where nobody really wants it.

[John from Riverside]

1 hour ago, FilthyBeast said:

It actually does make sense for a number of reasons that have been beat to death including but not limited to:

 

- $12 million in cap space free immediately

- would likely get a 2nd round pick at minimum (possibly more)

- can sign Wagner or other stop gap LB much cheaper, wagner (and others) would be instant upgrade/at worse lateral move.

- despite all the cap maneuvering we aren't going to be able to keep everyone and no way I'm paying $15 - $20 million a season for a guy like Edmunds starting in 2023.

 

At this point he probably stays but still think it's very possible he's moved soon especially the longer guys like Wagner stay on the market.

 

I just dont think they do it.  I bet they want to see what he looks like behind these D linemen we just signed

[delirious]

5 minutes ago, nedboy7 said:

Edmunds haters remind of the JA is our only good player narrative. It’s dumb. 

 

Edmunds truthers remind me that there's people out there that will do any sort of mental gymnastics to try to convince themselves that he isn't a JAG and can't be replaced

[Buffalo_Stampede]

I would like to read some opinions. Who’s at fault on this run?

 

 

[Alphadawg7]

8 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Because Edmunds plays so much better than Milano, or because Edmunds is the more hyped 1st round pick bigger name?

 

Either way, I'm not putting stock in any of the PR. I find far more value in the Cover1 breakdowns which actually disect plays to soften my criticisms of Edmunds, over people giving coach-speak to the media.

 

And yet when Cover1 or any other analysis say he had a good game, people still come on a dump on him too.  Its all good, youre a good poster, so meaning no disrespect.  But in my book, there is no denying his criticism is over the top and grossly exaggerated.  He isn't perfect, he has things he can do better, but the role he plays here he does better than people give him credit for.  And honestly, its not really debatable when you read the bad takes all over this board.  Not lumping you into that description, just in general the over exaggeration that goes on around him.

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

2 hours ago, recovery96 said:

I am in the group who wants him gone for a second round pick, but with all the pieces we’ve acquired what would be the point? He can still play a vital role on this defense and why lose that when you also have a full set of picks in the draft. 

 

1 hour ago, FilthyBeast said:

It actually does make sense for a number of reasons that have been beat to death including but not limited to:

 

- $12 million in cap space free immediately

- would likely get a 2nd round pick at minimum (possibly more)

- can sign Wagner or other stop gap LB much cheaper, wagner (and others) would be instant upgrade/at worse lateral move.

- despite all the cap maneuvering we aren't going to be able to keep everyone and no way I'm paying $15 - $20 million a season for a guy like Edmunds starting in 2023.

 

At this point he probably stays but still think it's very possible he's moved soon especially the longer guys like Wagner stay on the market.

 

 

To me this is pretty funny seems like 2/3 of the posters here say he's terrible and want to get rid of him.  But then turn around and expect a 2nd rounder or more in a trade.

 

If he's a as bad as people say, lucky to get a 5th or 6th for him.

 

I'm sure I'll here how in a different style defense or position he'd be great and worth a 2nd or more.

 

Is he worth the $12 mil, no but doubt he's going anywhere unless traded for much less.  And then that leaves the defense with a big hole.

[nedboy7]

1 minute ago, delirious said:

 

Edmunds truthers remind me that there's people out there that will do any sort of mental gymnastics to try to convince themselves that he isn't a JAG and can't be replaced

 

I think there is a deference in saying he is average vs he sucks.  I got no problem if they can find a better option.  But to think you can just plug anyone in there is not really a sensible argument.