What to do at CB?

[Motor26]

2 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

I would say the two biggest foundational needs at this point are a future LT who can play well at guard or RT right now...........and a WR1 with great speed and/or RAC ability.    Deficient blocking and a lack of RAC ability from the WR corps cost them regular season games and subsequently home field advantage last year.........but beyond that those are 2 of the 4 most important positions on the roster(QB1/PassRusher1/LT1/WR1) and they can't allow those expensive and difficult to re-stock positions to decline.

 

Those players are what round 1 and to a good extent round 2 are for, IMO.

 

Everything else is a clear notch or more below in priority for this team.

 

They really don't NEED another stud cover corner to play in their zone scheme.........if it happens organically.........say you draft and develop a guy with both man and zone skills in the mid rounds.........great.........but unless the defense is going to make a fundamental change to more man coverage you don't really NEED two pro bowl cover guys in this system.    Not saying Andrew Booth wouldn't be worth the pick at #25.........but I'd hope to address the positions where the individual skill level would be more impactful for the team going forward.

I personally really like Bernhard Raimann, describes a lot of what you’re looking for. 

[mjt328]

5 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

IMO Dane Jackson is as good of a CB as Ryan Bates is a guard.   Both somewhat unproven but have shown really good things that leave one to think they can be adequate+ starters in their respective schemes.

 

And Tre White is more likely to come back and play at a high level than Rodger Saffold is at this point........because White is a better, younger player.   My confidence is Saffold is low.......if he comes off the field injured during every game at the Ralph like he did in TN last year he will draw the ire of Bills fans for eating up precious cap space.

 

I do expect a veteran signing at CB as well.........which will be a better player/fit than Greg Mancz or Cody Ford as the Bills backup interior OL........those players STINK and I wouldn't be surprised if neither made the roster.

 

And let me re-iterate that the Bills had a tremendous pass defense last season......even after White went down.........but the Bills OL allowed significantly more combined sacks/pressures than the much maligned Bengals OL in 2021.

 

It's telling, IMO that people think the guard position is all set while CB is such an obvious need.

 

So need is clearly a relative term.

 

I think they NEED to get better at both positions but that they can address both of those positions AFTER rounds 1 and 2.    Neither position requires elite talent in the Bills offensive and defensive schemes.  

 

I won't be broken up if they address CB in the first 2 rounds...........but the #1 job of ANY organization should be to protect and improve the performance conditions for their QB and they have not done that so far this offseason, IMO.  

 

Beane said as much after the season was over but he also paid a lot of lip service LAST offseason to addressing issues about team speed and then went out and added Emmanuel Sanders. 

 

You aren't wrong.  But there is a legitimate reason people feel this way...

 

When it comes to our O-Line, Josh Allen makes up for A LOT of their struggles.  Some of his best plays are those when the blocker totally whiffs, and he is chased out of the pocket.  For the average fan, who really cares if our O-Line is allowing "pressures" if it doesn't result in sacks and we are still scoring 35+ points?  That's why people who do in-depth All-22 studies of our O-Line generally have a lower opinion of this group than the general fanbase.

 

I also think people would feel much better about Cornerback, if they knew confidently when Tre White would return.

The problem isn't Dane Jackson.  He did a really good job as the #2 last season when White went down.

The problem is lining up Jackson on Week 1 with someone like Cam Lewis (or a rookie).

And of course, the last image of our season is the secondary (without White) getting absolutely torched on multiple scoring drives.

 

 

[JGMcD2]

Supposedly brought up on NFL Live that we’ve inquired on Stephon Gilmore along with 2-3 other teams. 

 

I think it’s just further proof Beane has to be kicking the tires on all the DB left out there. I don’t think we sign him… but we were “in on” Peterson… we’re definitely waiting this market out. 

Edited April 1, 2022 by JGMcD2

[BADOLBILZ]

16 minutes ago, JGMcD2 said:

Supposedly brought up on NFL Live that we’ve inquired on Stephon Gilmore along with 2-3 other teams. 

 

I think it’s just further proof Beane has to be kicking the tires on all the DB left out there. I don’t think we sign him… but we were “in on” Peterson… we’re definitely waiting this market out. 

 

 

Beane doesn't just kick tires he got to know the bounce to ounce ratio.

 

[MrEpsYtown]

2 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Question: how many LTs in the modern NFL (since changes that enabled the importance of the passing game) have played another OL position and then switched to LT successfully?

 

Jason Peters, whom I believe you like, would be one example (blocking TE to RT to LT) but it seems rare to me.  Whereas guys who get drafted to play LT and wind up playing RT or G seem relatively common.

 

Anyway I would like to see the Bills draft IOL and yeah, a backup plan at RT in case Brown doesn't take that step would be good with me; they don't have to be a future LT to make it a reasonable pick somewhere in the early rounds, for me.  So probably we agree way more than we disagree here.

 

I guess you can count Jordan Mailata who went from Rugby to starting left tackle. And he’s pretty good. 
 

Alejandro Villanueva played DL, LT, and WR! at Army and transitioned to a pretty good left tackle, but did play a good amount of it in college so not sure he counts. 

But yeah the transition usually goes in the other direction. Our three projected IOL starters were LT’s who moved inside. 
 

 

[BADOLBILZ]

4 hours ago, mjt328 said:

 

You aren't wrong.  But there is a legitimate reason people feel this way...

 

When it comes to our O-Line, Josh Allen makes up for A LOT of their struggles.  Some of his best plays are those when the blocker totally whiffs, and he is chased out of the pocket.  For the average fan, who really cares if our O-Line is allowing "pressures" if it doesn't result in sacks and we are still scoring 35+ points?  That's why people who do in-depth All-22 studies of our O-Line generally have a lower opinion of this group than the general fanbase.

 

I also think people would feel much better about Cornerback, if they knew confidently when Tre White would return.

The problem isn't Dane Jackson.  He did a really good job as the #2 last season when White went down.

The problem is lining up Jackson on Week 1 with someone like Cam Lewis (or a rookie).

And of course, the last image of our season is the secondary (without White) getting absolutely torched on multiple scoring drives.

 

 

 

 

Just like Allen makes up for some poor blocking with his escapability...........it's reasonable to hope that the massive investments in the pass rush this offseason will do a better job of protecting the secondary.

 

As for Allen looking better with worse blocking........his yards per pass attempt dropped a full yard this past season due to that pressure and the Bills offense scored less points than in 2020...........so that is a case of looks being very deceiving if that's the way some people feel.

 

I get that people fear the CB situation but those are mainly the same people who threw up their hands when White got injured and declared that the team wouldn't even make the playoffs and that the SB dreams were totally over.    As it turns out they could have easily won the SB without White.   And there were some pretty shaky CB's playing in the championship games and SB..........it's not like those games were showcases of top CB play.

 

 

[Bill from NYC]

On 4/1/2022 at 2:08 PM, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Question: how many LTs in the modern NFL (since changes that enabled the importance of the passing game) have played another OL position and then switched to LT successfully?

Branden Albert.

[4merper4mer]

17 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said:

Branden Albert.

He said modern.  Didn’t Albert block for a guy Ronald Reagan played in a movie?  That’s not modern.

[Bill from NYC]

25 minutes ago, 4merper4mer said:

He said modern.  Didn’t Albert block for a guy Ronald Reagan played in a movie?  That’s not modern.

Albert was drafted in 2008 after having never played OT an UVA. He played 9 years in the NFL through the 2016 season and was voted to the Pro Bowl in 2013 and 2015. The rule changes that greatly impacted the NFL took place in 2010. 

 

Do you really not consider this "modern" or was your post just a lead in to a joke that was marginally funny at best? 

[4merper4mer]

1 hour ago, Bill from NYC said:

Albert was drafted in 2008 after having never played OT an UVA. He played 9 years in the NFL through the 2016 season and was voted to the Pro Bowl in 2013 and 2015. The rule changes that greatly impacted the NFL took place in 2010. 

 

Do you really not consider this "modern" or was your post just a lead in to a joke that was marginally funny at best? 

So you can’t think of a single guy that  accomplished the described feat since one who was drafted in 2008?  One of these guys comes along every fourteen years?  And you haven’t noticed any differences at all in NFL offenses since 2016? Awesome.  And it should be our draft strategy to find one of the 14 year guard tackles early?  Solid.  Anything to avoid picking a corner since corners are jerks and should not be allowed in the NFL.

[Solomon Grundy]

On 4/1/2022 at 4:53 PM, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Beane doesn't just kick tires he got to know the bounce to ounce ratio.

 

I hope that was his vehicle 😂😂

[Einstein's Dog]

On 4/1/2022 at 4:31 PM, JGMcD2 said:

Supposedly brought up on NFL Live that we’ve inquired on Stephon Gilmore along with 2-3 other teams. 

 

I think it’s just further proof Beane has to be kicking the tires on all the DB left out there. I don’t think we sign him… but we were “in on” Peterson… we’re definitely waiting this market out. 

And those are the useless ones they leaked.  Seems like Peterson went for a reasonable price, $4-5M, but the dorklike Dolphins put a crimp in the Bills value-hunting with the outrageous X Howard signing.  May have set our time table back a little.

 

CBs still out there:  Rhodes/Nelson/Callahan, then Jenkins/Bouye/Haden/Sherman.

 

Safe to say Beane has a price/value/hierarchy for these CBs.

 

 

[Rockinon]

12 minutes ago, Einstein's Dog said:

And those are the useless ones they leaked.  Seems like Peterson went for a reasonable price, $4-5M, but the dorklike Dolphins put a crimp in the Bills value-hunting with the outrageous X Howard signing.  May have set our time table back a little.

 

CBs still out there:  Rhodes/Nelson/Callahan, then Jenkins/Bouye/Haden/Sherman.

 

Safe to say Beane has a price/value/hierarchy for these CBs.

 

 

At this stage, there are few teams that are going to be willing to pay big for CBs. The price will start dropping the longer this drags out.

[Einstein's Dog]

10 minutes ago, Rockinon said:

At this stage, there are few teams that are going to be willing to pay big for CBs. The price will start dropping the longer this drags out.

I think reasonable, dropped, prices will be happening soon too. 

 

I should have added Gilmore in the mix too.  He got $7M last year and should get less this year.

 

I'd like to see an under $5M signing of one of Gilmore/Rhodes/Nelson or Callahan.  Then draft one in rounds 2-4.

[Bill from NYC]

8 hours ago, 4merper4mer said:

So you can’t think of a single guy that  accomplished the described feat since one who was drafted in 2008?  One of these guys comes along every fourteen years?  And you haven’t noticed any differences at all in NFL offenses since 2016? Awesome.  And it should be our draft strategy to find one of the 14 year guard tackles early?  Solid.  Anything to avoid picking a corner since corners are jerks and should not be allowed in the NFL.

I don't follow every blocker on every team so I will point to 2 more with the Bills.

 

In 2001, we drafted Jonas Jennings in round 3 from UGA. In college he played at center and guard, as well as some time at tackle. He started at RT for the Bills and was surprisingly good to the extent that they moved him to LT where he also stood out, to the extent that the 49ers signed him to a huge (for that time period) contract. His career was then cut short by assorted serious injuries,

 

In 2004, we signed a player named Jason Peters from the Giants Practice Squad. where he was coached by Jumbo Elliot. Mr. Elliot noticed his unusual strength and had a hand in his being moved to tackle. How do I know this? Because Jumbo told me this in person. The Bills moved him to RT where he was a flat out monster and then to LT, where he was the best player on the team and STILL is doing well in 2022. 

 

Do note that we let both of these players leave, which does account to an extent for my aversion to the ways that the Bills typically draft.

 

As I said, I am unable to account for every tackle on every team. I also happen to think that you are a good poster. I have no quarrel with you, nor do I wish to engage you in some silly arguement.

 

Peace.

Edited April 3, 2022 by Bill from NYC

[4merper4mer]

4 hours ago, Bill from NYC said:

I don't follow every blocker on every team so I will point to 2 more with the Bills.

 

In 2001, we drafted Jonas Jennings in round 3 from UGA. In college he played at center and guard, as well as some time at tackle. He started at RT for the Bills and was surprisingly good to the extent that they moved him to LT where he also stood out, to the extent that the 49ers signed him to a huge (for that time period) contract. His career was then cut short by assorted serious injuries,

 

In 2004, we signed a player named Jason Taylor from the Giants Practice Squad. where he was coached by Jumbo Elliot. Mr. Elliot noticed his unusual strength and had a hand in his being moved to tackle. How do I know this? Because Jumbo told me this in person. The Bills moved him to RT where he was a flat out monster and then to LT, where he was the best player on the team and STILL is doing well in 2022. 

 

Do note that we let both of these players leave, which does account to an extent for my aversion to the ways that the Bills typically draft.

 

As I said, I am unable to account for every tackle on every team. I also happen to think that you are a good poster. I have no quarrel with you, nor do I wish to engage you in some silly arguement.

 

Peace.

Fair enough.  I think you meant Jason Peters right?

 

For the record I’m not steadfastly for or against any specific position being an early pick for the Bills. BPA I guess.   If I wanted I could probably make an argument for or against any position except the obvious ones like punter, etc.  

 

What I’m not a fan of is the pick a player to call the problem stuff that goes on around here.  Obviously Edmunds is the main evil villain member of the Bills and we need Batman to capture him and lock him up for good but I’m a bit surprised that Dawkins is now also a member of the axis.  Both of these guys are clearly a big part of the locker room cohesion and the locker room cohesion is clearly a big part of our success but sure let’s unceremoniously dump them.  
 

My own preference would be something that brings immediate help without sacrificing long term viability because I think we’re close.  I do think we could use a corner that way if Beane sees one but with the way salaries are going it seems to me if a WR is there…….

[LyndonvilleBill]

6 hours ago, Einstein's Dog said:

I think reasonable, dropped, prices will be happening soon too. 

 

I should have added Gilmore in the mix too.  He got $7M last year and should get less this year.

 

I'd like to see an under $5M signing of one of Gilmore/Rhodes/Nelson or Callahan.  Then draft one in rounds 2-4.

Didn't Gilmore have a large signing bonus? Think that may be a factor in what he shows as being paid last year. Spotrac has him at $14.1m aav (2@28) if I am reading it correctly?

[Bill from NYC]

51 minutes ago, 4merper4mer said:

Fair enough.  I think you meant Jason Peters right?

 

For the record I’m not steadfastly for or against any specific position being an early pick for the Bills. BPA I guess.   If I wanted I could probably make an argument for or against any position except the obvious ones like punter, etc.  

 

What I’m not a fan of is the pick a player to call the problem stuff that goes on around here.  Obviously Edmunds is the main evil villain member of the Bills and we need Batman to capture him and lock him up for good but I’m a bit surprised that Dawkins is now also a member of the axis.  Both of these guys are clearly a big part of the locker room cohesion and the locker room cohesion is clearly a big part of our success but sure let’s unceremoniously dump them.  
 

My own preference would be something that brings immediate help without sacrificing long term viability because I think we’re close.  I do think we could use a corner that way if Beane sees one but with the way salaries are going it seems to me if a WR is there…….

I did mean Peters. Thanks for the correction. 

[Einstein's Dog]

New thought on the CB strategy - wait out for the price drop, even if it means after the draft.  Usually we like to fill holes in FA but this year there may be unique circumstances - a glut of decent FA CBs who don't have a team.

 

Respectable FA CBs left- Fuller/Nelson/Rhodes/Gilmore/Sherman/Callahan/Jenkins/Haden.  Seems like the FO can hold out and get one at a price point they have in mind - probably the $3-4M range - which would be getting a better player than Wallace at a lesser price.  The price had been coming down, Peterson at $4-5M, but then Miami did something stupid (shocker) and set the market back.  So now we're waiting it back out again.

 

So even if we don't pick up a CB prior to the draft, there would be no need to panic and do a for need pick.  Still go BPA at premium position of need.  Operate as if you have one of the above CBs and draft accordingly.  

 

[Airseven]

FA market is tapped. I doubt Gilmore is in play for several reasons. The other available vets would be frivolous on this roster. Best bet is an early draft pick and then see who else shakes loose this summer.

 

Surprise trade is still possible.