What to do at CB?

[whorlnut]

18 minutes ago, Rocky Landing said:

First of all, a trade up would include our pick #25. It's not such an outrageous idea-- Beane has done it twice. Secondly, there are other assets besides draft picks. There is a rumor circulating right now that a trade up would include a vet player. Regardless, according to the standard trade value chart, our first, and second round picks would equate to the fourth overall pick. 

 

Are you suggesting that we aren't thin at CB? IMO, it is the thinnest position on the team, especially if Tre White misses any time.

 

Yea we are thin. Beane just tried to get Patrick Peterson and I’m sure he’s in on some of the others as well. I’m also saying that we don’t have to take one in the 1st just to take one. That’s a horribly dumb move. It’s what gets GMs fired and Beane has proven that he’s not gonna make those kinds of mistakes. 

[Paul Costa]

Steve Nelson please 😱😱😱😱😱😱

[Rocky Landing]

19 minutes ago, whorlnut said:

Yea we are thin. Beane just tried to get Patrick Peterson and I’m sure he’s in on some of the others as well. I’m also saying that we don’t have to take one in the 1st just to take one. That’s a horribly dumb move. It’s what gets GMs fired and Beane has proven that he’s not gonna make those kinds of mistakes. 

 

Beane traded up for Ford, Edmunds, and Josh Allen. He traded a first for Diggs. If he feels the value is there, he'll make the trade-- not "just to take one," but because he sees the value. The top three CBs in the draft are expected to be gone by #25.  In 2020, Seattle traded two firsts, and a second for S Jamal Adams from the Jets. Trades in the first round happen every draft, and they often work out. And consider also that CB is one of the few positions that has not been addressed in FA. Peterson re-signed with the Vikes for $4mil. That's what Levi's getting with the Steelers. 

 

 

Edited April 1, 2022 by Rocky Landing

[Motor26]

31 minutes ago, Rocky Landing said:

 

Beane traded up for Ford, Edmunds, and Josh Allen. He traded a first for Diggs. If he feels the value is there, he'll make the trade-- not "just to take one," but because he sees the value. The top three CBs in the draft are expected to be gone by #25.  In 2020, Seattle traded two firsts, and a second for S Jamal Adams from the Jets. Trades in the first round happen every draft, and they often work out. And consider also that CB is one of the few positions that has not been addressed in FA. Peterson re-signed with the Vikes for $4mil. That's what Levi's getting with the Steelers. 

 

 

How did that trade work out for Seattle? You also said 25+57 would get the Bills all the way up to 4, which even from the chart you shared wasn’t factual, and even less so in real life. 

[Rocky Landing]

52 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

1050 would only get you to 15 by that chart.    Not even CLOSE to top 10.

 

You want to go from 15 to 5 by adding a player then it's going to be a player like Gabe Davis..........not a MLB in his walk year or some spare part the Bills have kicking around.

You're right. My math was wrong. (That chart is outdated, anyway) But, I never said top ten, and I didn't say that draft picks were the only assets that Beane would, or should consider. I'm saying if Beane feels there is a CB worth the assets he's willing to spend, and another team is willing, he would pull the trigger. He has before. I was also making the point that we are, like last season, drafting for primarily backup positions. Multiple draft picks are more valuable to a team that has room for them on their roster, right? What good are draft picks if they get poached off the PS? That happened to us twice last season.

1 minute ago, Motor26 said:

How did that trade work out for Seattle? You also said 25+57 would get the Bills all the way up to 4, which even from the chart you shared wasn’t factual, and even less so in real life. 

Yeah, I screwed up the math, but that's really not the point. Trade-ups in the first happen, and Beane has done it three times, plus Diggs.

 

BTW, that trade for Adams was hella steep, but he got 9.5 sacks for Seattle in his first season there.

[Motor26]

6 minutes ago, Rocky Landing said:

You're right. My math was wrong. (That chart is outdated, anyway) But, I never said top ten, and I didn't say that draft picks were the only assets that Beane would, or should consider. I'm saying if Beane feels there is a CB worth the assets he's willing to spend, and another team is willing, he would pull the trigger. He has before. I was also making the point that we are, like last season, drafting for primarily backup positions. Multiple draft picks are more valuable to a team that has room for them on their roster, right? What good are draft picks if they get poached off the PS? That happened to us twice last season.

Yeah, I screwed up the math, but that's really not the point. Trade-ups in the first happen, and Beane has done it three times, plus Diggs.

 

BTW, that trade for Adams was hella steep, but he got 9.5 sacks for Seattle in his first season there.

The point I’m trying to make is Beane is aiming at prolonged success. He’s not willing to mortgage the future to win now (at this point at least). Even without trading draft picks though, he’s made a lot of good moves. Would I be mad if he did and the Bills won it all? Not at all. 

[GolfandBills]

If Gardner gets to 10ish i don’t think Beane will be able to contain himself.  If there’s a trade up target it’s him.  

[BADOLBILZ]

35 minutes ago, Rocky Landing said:

You're right. My math was wrong. (That chart is outdated, anyway) But, I never said top ten, and I didn't say that draft picks were the only assets that Beane would, or should consider. I'm saying if Beane feels there is a CB worth the assets he's willing to spend, and another team is willing, he would pull the trigger. He has before. I was also making the point that we are, like last season, drafting for primarily backup positions. Multiple draft picks are more valuable to a team that has room for them on their roster, right? What good are draft picks if they get poached off the PS? That happened to us twice last season.

 

Maybe you don't follow the draft but thinking the Bills could get up into the top tier of the draft with what they have to offer...........and not rob one key position to do it.......was misplaced and it's very relevant to your argument.    You tried to mic-drop a link in there without considering what the poster had told you about the math.

 

As for the concept that the Bills can't roster 8 draft picks............they certainly can..........and when you get in a position where the cap is tight it becomes even more important to do so.   Drafting and developing mid-late round picks is critical for the team going forward.   I'm sure the Bills have some regret about not keeping roster spots open for Jack Anderson and Rachad Wildgoose and then having 15 free agents and numerous holes to fill.   Beane isn't going to be able to sign 10 free agents(some his own) for above minimum deals every offseason........he's done it twice in a row but they will have to sacrifice veteran depth in favor of youth in the near future.  

 

In an ideal draft the Bills come out of it with a future WR1 and CB1.......plus 2 future starting OL..........and potential replacement options for free agents to be Edmunds, Knox, Poyer and Singletary.

 

Drafts never work out that perfectly.........but that's 8 picks right there and there is roster space for all of that...........and frankly they should be able to get a lot of that done since they aren't drafting for immediate need so they should be able to let the board come to them.

[Magnum Force]

https://heavy.com/sports/buffalo-bills/joe-haden-von-miller-recruiting/

[Rocky Landing]

8 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Maybe you don't follow the draft but thinking the Bills could get up into the top tier of the draft with what they have to offer...........and not rob one key position to do it.......was misplaced and it's very relevant to your argument.    You tried to mic-drop a link in there without considering what the poster had told you about the math.

 

As for the concept that the Bills can't roster 8 draft picks............they certainly can..........and when you get in a position where the cap is tight it becomes even more important to do so.   Drafting and developing mid-late round picks is critical for the team going forward.   I'm sure the Bills have some regret about not keeping roster spots open for Jack Anderson and Rachad Wildgoose and then having 15 free agents and numerous holes to fill.   Beane isn't going to be able to sign 10 free agents(some his own) for above minimum deals every offseason........he's done it twice in a row but they will have to sacrifice veteran depth in favor of youth in the near future.  

 

In an ideal draft the Bills come out of it with a future WR1 and CB1.......plus 2 future starting OL..........and potential replacement options for free agents to be Edmunds, Knox, Poyer and Singletary.

 

Drafts never work out that perfectly.........but that's 8 picks right there and there is roster space for all of that...........and frankly they should be able to get a lot of that done since they aren't drafting for immediate need so they should be able to let the board come to them.

All good points, thanks. But, regarding the bolded:

Bundling a vet with later picks is exactly what I'm talking about. In fact, that rumor is circulating right now. And is CB not an immediate need? Maybe you're higher on Dane Jackson than I am-- I know a lot of people are-- but I think you'd agree that he's the weak link in the secondary.

 

As far as who that vet would be, we'd all hate to see Davis go. Of course Edmunds has been discussed. I don't know where Moss's ranking was in '21, but in '20 he was the best RB at pass pro in the league. But, if there is any truth to the rumor, then there are names being discussed.

[atlbillsfan1975]

15 hours ago, whorlnut said:

McDs defense has made many late round or undrafted guys look good. There is ZERO reason in trading up in round 1 for a corner. Tre will prob be back sooner than most people expect and Dane Jackson has two years in the system. Our safeties take a lot of pressure off the corners. To think we need to trade up for a corner in 1 is crazy to me. 

Great point about the safeties. If the Bills can find another good to great CB in the draft, I’m not for trading up to find one, this D will be even more improved. 

[BADOLBILZ]

47 minutes ago, Rocky Landing said:

All good points, thanks. But, regarding the bolded:

Bundling a vet with later picks is exactly what I'm talking about. In fact, that rumor is circulating right now. And is CB not an immediate need? Maybe you're higher on Dane Jackson than I am-- I know a lot of people are-- but I think you'd agree that he's the weak link in the secondary.

 

As far as who that vet would be, we'd all hate to see Davis go. Of course Edmunds has been discussed. I don't know where Moss's ranking was in '21, but in '20 he was the best RB at pass pro in the league. But, if there is any truth to the rumor, then there are names being discussed.

 

 

IMO Dane Jackson is as good of a CB as Ryan Bates is a guard.   Both somewhat unproven but have shown really good things that leave one to think they can be adequate+ starters in their respective schemes.

 

And Tre White is more likely to come back and play at a high level than Rodger Saffold is at this point........because White is a better, younger player.   My confidence is Saffold is low.......if he comes off the field injured during every game at the Ralph like he did in TN last year he will draw the ire of Bills fans for eating up precious cap space.

 

I do expect a veteran signing at CB as well.........which will be a better player/fit than Greg Mancz or Cody Ford as the Bills backup interior OL........those players STINK and I wouldn't be surprised if neither made the roster.

 

And let me re-iterate that the Bills had a tremendous pass defense last season......even after White went down.........but the Bills OL allowed significantly more combined sacks/pressures than the much maligned Bengals OL in 2021.

 

It's telling, IMO that people think the guard position is all set while CB is such an obvious need.

 

So need is clearly a relative term.

 

I think they NEED to get better at both positions but that they can address both of those positions AFTER rounds 1 and 2.    Neither position requires elite talent in the Bills offensive and defensive schemes.  

 

I won't be broken up if they address CB in the first 2 rounds...........but the #1 job of ANY organization should be to protect and improve the performance conditions for their QB and they have not done that so far this offseason, IMO.  

 

Beane said as much after the season was over but he also paid a lot of lip service LAST offseason to addressing issues about team speed and then went out and added Emmanuel Sanders. 

[OldTimer1960]

57 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

IMO Dane Jackson is as good of a CB as Ryan Bates is a guard.   Both somewhat unproven but have shown really good things that leave one to think they can be adequate+ starters in their respective schemes.

 

And Tre White is more likely to come back and play at a high level than Rodger Saffold is at this point........because White is a better, younger player.   My confidence is Saffold is low.......if he comes off the field injured during every game at the Ralph like he did in TN last year he will draw the ire of Bills fans for eating up precious cap space.

 

I do expect a veteran signing at CB as well.........which will be a better player/fit than Greg Mancz or Cody Ford as the Bills backup interior OL........those players STINK and I wouldn't be surprised if neither made the roster.

 

And let me re-iterate that the Bills had a tremendous pass defense last season......even after White went down.........but the Bills OL allowed significantly more combined sacks/pressures than the much maligned Bengals OL in 2021.

 

It's telling, IMO that people think the guard position is all set while CB is such an obvious need.

 

So need is clearly a relative term.

 

I think they NEED to get better at both positions but that they can address both of those positions AFTER rounds 1 and 2.    Neither position requires elite talent in the Bills offensive and defensive schemes.  

 

I won't be broken up if they address CB in the first 2 rounds...........but the #1 job of ANY organization should be to protect and improve the performance conditions for their QB and they have not done that so far this offseason, IMO.  

 

Beane said as much after the season was over but he also paid a lot of lip service LAST offseason to addressing issues about team speed and then went out and added Emmanuel Sanders. 

I agree that OL / OG is still a need.  While I liked some of what I saw from Spencer Brown, he was not a finished product.  I would not be shocked if the Bills took an OT early - perhaps one who could play G.  I will be a little surprised if they took an OG in round 1, but a T who can play G as well could be in play there.

 

I don’t have as much confidence in Dane Jackson as some here.  He *might* be an OK starter, but I think they need a backup plan in case he isn’t as good as some here think.  For that reason, I think CB has a high probability of being their first pick.  

[whorlnut]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

IMO Dane Jackson is as good of a CB as Ryan Bates is a guard.   Both somewhat unproven but have shown really good things that leave one to think they can be adequate+ starters in their respective schemes.

 

And Tre White is more likely to come back and play at a high level than Rodger Saffold is at this point........because White is a better, younger player.   My confidence is Saffold is low.......if he comes off the field injured during every game at the Ralph like he did in TN last year he will draw the ire of Bills fans for eating up precious cap space.

 

I do expect a veteran signing at CB as well.........which will be a better player/fit than Greg Mancz or Cody Ford as the Bills backup interior OL........those players STINK and I wouldn't be surprised if neither made the roster.

 

And let me re-iterate that the Bills had a tremendous pass defense last season......even after White went down.........but the Bills OL allowed significantly more combined sacks/pressures than the much maligned Bengals OL in 2021.

 

It's telling, IMO that people think the guard position is all set while CB is such an obvious need.

 

So need is clearly a relative term.

 

I think they NEED to get better at both positions but that they can address both of those positions AFTER rounds 1 and 2.    Neither position requires elite talent in the Bills offensive and defensive schemes.  

 

I won't be broken up if they address CB in the first 2 rounds...........but the #1 job of ANY organization should be to protect and improve the performance conditions for their QB and they have not done that so far this offseason, IMO.  

 

Beane said as much after the season was over but he also paid a lot of lip service LAST offseason to addressing issues about team speed and then went out and added Emmanuel Sanders. 

Good points. The theme of the off-season has been that “we need to draft a corner in the first”. That’s only gonna get this team in trouble if it’s not the right guy. You don’t draft a corner just to draft one. That’s completely reckless and irresponsible. We can get a really good one in the 3rd or 4th. Joe Marino raves about Cam Taylor-Britt and Josh Williams. They are 3rd round guys. 

[Rocky Landing]

41 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

IMO Dane Jackson is as good of a CB as Ryan Bates is a guard.   Both somewhat unproven but have shown really good things that leave one to think they can be adequate+ starters in their respective schemes.

 

And Tre White is more likely to come back and play at a high level than Rodger Saffold is at this point........because White is a better, younger player.   My confidence is Saffold is low.......if he comes off the field injured during every game at the Ralph like he did in TN last year he will draw the ire of Bills fans for eating up precious cap space.

 

I do expect a veteran signing at CB as well.........which will be a better player/fit than Greg Mancz or Cody Ford as the Bills backup interior OL........those players STINK and I wouldn't be surprised if neither made the roster.

 

And let me re-iterate that the Bills had a tremendous pass defense last season......even after White went down.........but the Bills OL allowed significantly more combined sacks/pressures than the much maligned Bengals OL in 2021.

 

It's telling, IMO that people think the guard position is all set while CB is such an obvious need.

 

So need is clearly a relative term.

 

I think they NEED to get better at both positions but that they can address both of those positions AFTER rounds 1 and 2.    Neither position requires elite talent in the Bills offensive and defensive schemes.  

 

I won't be broken up if they address CB in the first 2 rounds...........but the #1 job of ANY organization should be to protect and improve the performance conditions for their QB and they have not done that so far this offseason, IMO.  

 

Beane said as much after the season was over but he also paid a lot of lip service LAST offseason to addressing issues about team speed and then went out and added Emmanuel Sanders. 

I will say that I am not particularly worried about Tre White. That may only be because I've had my own ACL replaced twice. Maybe he misses a game, or two. But ACL replacement has become utterly routine, and with state-of-the-art rehab (which Tre is most certainly taking advantage of) there's no reason he won't be 100% upon his return, IMO.

 

But I know you don't place the same draft value on G as you do CB. I know Beane's draft philosophy in a nutshell is to fill holes in FA, and generally draft BPA for the future. But I don't know that he always holds to that philosophy in the first round. I'm curious, though: what position do you consider the Bills' greatest need at this point? Even if that need is OL, I wouldn't think you would advocate for taking a guard in the first. All that being said, my hope for the first round is to get their highest rated CB they can afford, and if they have a vet in mind they're willing to trade to help make that deal... well, there are players I'd be disappointed to lose. But, if the Bills snagged that "future ... CB1" you were referring to earlier this season... that could be special.

 

I guess I also have higher hopes for Saffold, but more for his run blocking. If the Bills' run game improves, as it did at the end of the season, that alone takes pressure off Allen. I think the addition of Kromer is also an upgrade. 

 

[SCBills]

My suggestion for CB:

 

Trade Edmunds for a Top 90 pick.  Draft his replacement.  
 

Use some of the freed up cap space and send a 4th to NYG for Bradberry given we can now absorb some of his contract. 
 

Then go WR, OL, OL in the first three rounds, plus LB with the Edmunds pick. 
 

I don’t know if Edmunds would bring back a Top 90 pick, given hes in need of a new contract, but I think he would be given his potential and age.  
 

A 4th should get a Bradberry deal done given the Giants could then unload some of their cap hit on us. 
 

Im sure this won’t happen, but (IMO) it’s plausible if we had any desire to pursue it. 
 

 

Edited April 1, 2022 by SCBills

[BADOLBILZ]

1 hour ago, Rocky Landing said:

I will say that I am not particularly worried about Tre White. That may only be because I've had my own ACL replaced twice. Maybe he misses a game, or two. But ACL replacement has become utterly routine, and with state-of-the-art rehab (which Tre is most certainly taking advantage of) there's no reason he won't be 100% upon his return, IMO.

 

But I know you don't place the same draft value on G as you do CB. I know Beane's draft philosophy in a nutshell is to fill holes in FA, and generally draft BPA for the future. But I don't know that he always holds to that philosophy in the first round. I'm curious, though: what position do you consider the Bills' greatest need at this point? Even if that need is OL, I wouldn't think you would advocate for taking a guard in the first. All that being said, my hope for the first round is to get their highest rated CB they can afford, and if they have a vet in mind they're willing to trade to help make that deal... well, there are players I'd be disappointed to lose. But, if the Bills snagged that "future ... CB1" you were referring to earlier this season... that could be special.

 

I guess I also have higher hopes for Saffold, but more for his run blocking. If the Bills' run game improves, as it did at the end of the season, that alone takes pressure off Allen. I think the addition of Kromer is also an upgrade. 

 

 

I would say the two biggest foundational needs at this point are a future LT who can play well at guard or RT right now...........and a WR1 with great speed and/or RAC ability.    Deficient blocking and a lack of RAC ability from the WR corps cost them regular season games and subsequently home field advantage last year.........but beyond that those are 2 of the 4 most important positions on the roster(QB1/PassRusher1/LT1/WR1) and they can't allow those expensive and difficult to re-stock positions to decline.

 

Those players are what round 1 and to a good extent round 2 are for, IMO.

 

Everything else is a clear notch or more below in priority for this team.

 

They really don't NEED another stud cover corner to play in their zone scheme.........if it happens organically.........say you draft and develop a guy with both man and zone skills in the mid rounds.........great.........but unless the defense is going to make a fundamental change to more man coverage you don't really NEED two pro bowl cover guys in this system.    Not saying Andrew Booth wouldn't be worth the pick at #25.........but I'd hope to address the positions where the individual skill level would be more impactful for the team going forward.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

I would say the two biggest foundational needs at this point are a future LT who can play well at guard or RT right now

 

Question: how many LTs in the modern NFL (since changes that enabled the importance of the passing game) have played another OL position and then switched to LT successfully?

 

Jason Peters, whom I believe you like, would be one example (blocking TE to RT to LT) but it seems rare to me.  Whereas guys who get drafted to play LT and wind up playing RT or G seem relatively common.

 

Anyway I would like to see the Bills draft IOL and yeah, a backup plan at RT in case Brown doesn't take that step would be good with me; they don't have to be a future LT to make it a reasonable pick somewhere in the early rounds, for me.  So probably we agree way more than we disagree here.

 

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

They really don't NEED another stud cover corner to play in their zone scheme.........if it happens organically.........say you draft and develop a guy with both man and zone skills in the mid rounds.........great.........but unless the defense is going to make a fundamental change to more man coverage you don't really NEED two pro bowl cover guys in this system.    Not saying Andrew Booth wouldn't be worth the pick at #25.........but I'd hope to address the positions where the individual skill level would be more impactful for the team going forward.

 

Just a caveat here that at present, it's not clear we have one stud cover corner.   We all hope Tre White had a "small setback for a great comeback" but it's never assured.  We desperately need someone besides Dane Jackson!

 

2 hours ago, Rocky Landing said:

I will say that I am not particularly worried about Tre White. That may only be because I've had my own ACL replaced twice. Maybe he misses a game, or two. But ACL replacement has become utterly routine, and with state-of-the-art rehab (which Tre is most certainly taking advantage of) there's no reason he won't be 100% upon his return, IMO.

 

I hope you're right

[BADOLBILZ]

8 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Question: how many LTs in the modern NFL (since changes that enabled the importance of the passing game) have played another OL position and then switched to LT successfully?

 

 

 

I don't know exactly how many but I don't think it's very unusual nor does it say anything about the viability of doing that.

 

Jason Peters and Dion Dawkins are both examples and if the Bills didn't have a gaping hole at LT at the time then Cordy Glenn might have started at guard as well.

 

 It's more circumstance than anything else, IMO.

 

Jonas Jennings blocked Peters initially, Glenn blocked Dion initially.

 

 Dion Dawkins game declining some this season or next wouldn't be a huge shock.......he's not a generational talent at LT he's been kinda' defying the odds as a shorter, portlier LT because his feet have covered for his less than ideal frame.    When the feet go it will likely be a fast fall or a move to guard.

 

[BADOLBILZ]

26 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Just a caveat here that at present, it's not clear we have one stud cover corner.   We all hope Tre White had a "small setback for a great comeback" but it's never assured.  We desperately need someone besides Dane Jackson!

 

 

I think the question of whether Tre White will return to form is no less of a mystery than whether Gabe Davis will elevate his consistency to become a 1,000 yard type receiver to fill the numbers void with the departures of Beasley/Sanders.    

 

Davis doing THAT is probably more NEEDED than White returning to All Pro form in a defense that protects it's corners schematically.