How much did you pay for gas and groceries today?

[daz28]

Stop asking why we have inflation, and start asking why wages aren't keeping up with it, while profits soar.  Wealth gap anyone?

Edited March 18 by daz28

[The Frankish Reich]

6 minutes ago, daz28 said:

Stop asking why we have inflation, and start asking why wages aren't keeping up with it, while profits soar.  Wealth gap anyone?

A fair question.

My answer: it does actually "trickle down" but it takes time. Does that mean we should ignore safety nets? No. But it's easy to mock, but (to go to another old capitalist saying) a rising tide actually does lift all boats. Eventually ...

[Pokebball]

3 minutes ago, daz28 said:

Stop asking why we have inflation, and start asking why wages aren't keeping up with it, while profits soar.  Wealth gap anyone?

Citizens got revenue from government sources as part of the pandemic relief efforts. Quite a bit actually. Some of it was in lieu of working. It's difficult to apply any normal sort of economic theory to all of it. Global supply chain issues raised prices, the US printing shytloads of money raised prices, workforce shortages caused significant increases in pay which increased prices, regulations have always raised prices, etc.

[daz28]

3 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said:

A fair question.

My answer: it does actually "trickle down" but it takes time. Does that mean we should ignore safety nets? No. But it's easy to mock, but (to go to another old capitalist saying) a rising tide actually does lift all boats. Eventually ...

Trickle down isn't working.  They've figured out how to stop the leaking.  The only way to make trickle down work is unions, that force it to trickle. 

2 minutes ago, Pokebball said:

Citizens got revenue from government sources as part of the pandemic relief efforts. Quite a bit actually. Some of it was in lieu of working. It's difficult to apply any normal sort of economic theory to all of it. Global supply chain issues raised prices, the US printing shytloads of money raised prices, workforce shortages caused significant increases in pay which increased prices, regulations have always raised prices, etc.

We had the wage and wealth gaps before the pandemic.  Capitalism can only hide behind covid for so long.  When profits start suffering, that's when I'll start worrying about the poor corporate oligarchs and their shareholders.  

[The Frankish Reich]

1 minute ago, daz28 said:

Trickle down isn't working.  They've figured out how to stop the leaking.  The only way to make trickle down work is unions, that force it to trickle. 

I am a supporter of unions, which does take me out of the total laissez-faire economic viewpoint.

I can't paste the interactive chart without screenshotting it, but the numbers show a strong wage increase in the lower paid sectors, actually leading among sectors for a few quarters:

 

https://www.atlantafed.org/chcs/wage-growth-tracker

 

(Sort by income quintiles to get the picture)

[daz28]

2 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said:

I am a supporter of unions, which does take me out of the total laissez-faire economic viewpoint.

I can't paste the interactive chart without screenshotting it, but the numbers show a strong wage increase in the lower paid sectors, actually leading among sectors for a few quarters:

 

https://www.atlantafed.org/chcs/wage-growth-tracker

 

(Sort by income quintiles to get the picture)

Sadly, wages were increasing with inflation, but that was short lived.  It's almost like people held out as long as they could, and are now taking what they can get.  The average worker, with a low income, has absolutely no power over any of his conditions.  This is why THEIR government needs to step in.  Unfortunately, the oligopoly has taken over their government, leaving them powerless. 

[Pokebball]

18 minutes ago, daz28 said:

Trickle down isn't working.  They've figured out how to stop the leaking.  The only way to make trickle down work is unions, that force it to trickle. 

We had the wage and wealth gaps before the pandemic.  Capitalism can only hide behind covid for so long.  When profits start suffering, that's when I'll start worrying about the poor corporate oligarchs and their shareholders.  

Do you think capitalism causes greed? Greed has and will always exist.

 

 

Edited March 18 by Pokebball

[daz28]

11 minutes ago, Pokebball said:

Do you think capitalism causes greed? Greed has and will always exist.

 

 

Do you think workers are immune to the innate greed, that you're saying exists?  When they do express it, the oligarchs have conditioned the not so smart workers to exclaim, COMMUNIST!  When that method fails, they start a war.  

Edited March 18 by daz28

[Pokebball]

34 minutes ago, daz28 said:

Do you think workers are immune to the innate greed, that you're saying exists?  When they do express it, the oligarchs have conditioned the not so smart workers to exclaim, COMMUNIST!  When that method fails, they start a war.  

None of us are immune from each other. We all work for and towards our individual interests and while those interests vary, we all own our liberty. We all go quit and go to work across the street. While capitalism isn't perfect, there isn't a better system in the world, throughout all of history.

[daz28]

Just now, Pokebball said:

None of us are immune from each other. We all work for and towards our individual interests and while those interests vary, we all own our liberty. We all go quit and go to work across the street. While capitalism isn't perfect, there isn't a better system in the world, throughout all of history.

When across the street is exactly the same, and run by a different member of the oligopoly, then there really isn't much freedom of choice at all.  Like everything, corporate greed needs checks and balances.  The free market and competition doesn't work when there is collusion at the top with no organization of the workers at the bottom to check it.  

[Pokebball]

3 minutes ago, daz28 said:

When across the street is exactly the same, and run by a different member of the oligopoly, then there really isn't much freedom of choice at all.  Like everything, corporate greed needs checks and balances.  The free market and competition doesn't work when there is collusion at the top with no organization of the workers at the bottom to check it.  

I don't expect to convince you to agree with me. If you can think of a better system in the world, throughout history, I would appreciate you informing me of it. Otherwise, let's agree to disagree.

[The Frankish Reich]

14 minutes ago, Pokebball said:

None of us are immune from each other. We all work for and towards our individual interests and while those interests vary, we all own our liberty. We all go quit and go to work across the street. While capitalism isn't perfect, there isn't a better system in the world, throughout all of history.

Right. It's the old "capitalism is the worst economic system on earth, except for all the others."

[daz28]

2 minutes ago, Pokebball said:

I don't expect to convince you to agree with me. If you can think of a better system in the world, throughout history, I would appreciate you informing me of it. Otherwise, let's agree to disagree.

I just told you how to make it work better.  You can agree or disagree with that.  

[The Frankish Reich]

11 minutes ago, daz28 said:

The free market and competition doesn't work when there is collusion at the top with no organization of the workers at the bottom to check it.

And I agree with that too.

Executive compensation is out of control. The problem is the lack of anything resembling an independent Board in the modern corporation. Board members are well compensated (monetarily and in other ways) because they are basically a rubber stamp for what Directors and CEOs want to do. Look at what happened when a Delaware judge had the nerve to question whether Elon Musk's compensation package is really in the best interest of shareholders ...

[daz28]

7 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said:

And I agree with that too.

Executive compensation is out of control. The problem is the lack of anything resembling an independent Board in the modern corporation. Board members are well compensated (monetarily and in other ways) because they are basically a rubber stamp for what Directors and CEOs want to do. Look at what happened when a Delaware judge had the nerve to question whether Elon Musk's compensation package is really in the best interest of shareholders ...

Calling shareholders "investors" has to stop too.  Buying a share of stock puts absolutely no money into the company, but it always draws a dividend(if offered).  The actual "investing" happens long before a company becomes public.  The shareholders are all part owners.  I know it's just semantics, but it makes the simp arguments appear much better than they actually are.  

Edited March 18 by daz28

[Pokebball]

42 minutes ago, daz28 said:

I just told you how to make it work better.  You can agree or disagree with that.  

So what would this look like, in your opinion? Who makes these determinations and decisions? 

[daz28]

13 minutes ago, Pokebball said:

So what would this look like, in your opinion? Who makes these determinations and decisions? 

Huh?  If you don't know how unions work, you can google it.  The only real problem with it is that they will exploit workers elsewhere in the world.  Like I said before, when international workers begin to unite, the elite start a war.  If you're interested, Jean Jaurès is really good research.  Don't let the socialism word scare you.

Edited March 18 by daz28

[Pokebball]

18 minutes ago, daz28 said:

Huh?  If you don't know how unions work, you can google it.  The only real problem with it is that they will exploit workers elsewhere in the world.  Like I said before, when international workers begin to unite, the elite start a war.  If you're interested, Jean Jaurès is really good research.  Don't let the socialism word scare you.

I get the unions aspect. I was wondering how you'd control executive comp.

[daz28]

1 minute ago, Pokebball said:

I get the unions aspect. I was wondering how you'd control executive comp.

I don't know if a union has or can try to control that.  I did a quick google, and this is what I found:  

 

We find evidence that labor unions affect chief executive officer (CEO) compensation. First, we find that firms with strong unions pay their CEOs less. The negative effect is robust to various tests for endogeneity, including cross-sectional variations and a regression discontinuity design. Second, we find that CEO compensation is curbed before union contract negotiations, especially when the compensation is discretionary and the unions have a strong bargaining position. Third, we report that curbing CEO compensation mitigates the chance of a labor strike, thus providing a rationale for firms to pay CEOs less when facing strong unions.

[Pokebball]

3 minutes ago, daz28 said:

I don't know if a union has or can try to control that.  I did a quick google, and this is what I found:  

 

We find evidence that labor unions affect chief executive officer (CEO) compensation. First, we find that firms with strong unions pay their CEOs less. The negative effect is robust to various tests for endogeneity, including cross-sectional variations and a regression discontinuity design. Second, we find that CEO compensation is curbed before union contract negotiations, especially when the compensation is discretionary and the unions have a strong bargaining position. Third, we report that curbing CEO compensation mitigates the chance of a labor strike, thus providing a rationale for firms to pay CEOs less when facing strong unions.

It would make sense that a more robust union effort, driving up wages for the workers would have to come from cost cutting/shifting, more than likely coming from the C Suite. I'm not opposed to non government dynamics impacting upper level salaries. I am totally against any government controls or interventions in this dynamic.