Ukraine. The End Game

[Coffeesforclosers]

1 minute ago, Tiberius said:

Not surprised so many have been abandoned, fuel is hard to get shipped during war. The French had more tanks than the Germans in 1941 but just couldn’t drive them. They destroyed many themselves because their logistics sucked 

 

Indeed! The French equivalent of a panzer division, the Division Legere Mechanique (DLM) actually got to fight the Panzer divisions head on in Belgium and stopped them cold...

 

But they couldn't redeploy to Sedan/Meuse fast enough to seal off the German breakthrough, or coordinate counter attacks to cut off German spearheads.  Then the French leadership completely imploded into backstabbing and defeatism and that was that. Sorta the opposite of Ukraine so far.

 

*I'm going to be typing "so far" a lot, because I can't see into the future.

[sherpa]

4 hours ago, PetermansRedemption said:

I agree that Putin completely underestimated his ability to unite the west. I never thought I’d see the day where republicans and democrats and all of the western world was united on a cause. However, when it comes to the bolded, there’s really no way to know that yet. We don’t have accurate casualty figures, just propaganda from one side or the other. It took the US 3 weeks to capture Baghdad and that wasn’t an embarrassing military performance. Forces, no matter how superior, take time to move and capture land against inferior forces. If Ukraine is still holding on in a months time, it would absolutely be an embarrassing failure for the Russian military. 

 

I am commenting based on my experience, which is seven years of planning against them, the last two and a half an an adversary pilot, studying their tactics and weapons and presenting them to US fighters and other air forces.

The US performance in Iraq was military nearly flawless.

This is a a strange non use of capability, terrible planning and poor execution.

The lack of a professional NCO group is obvious, but their Air Force sitting on the sidelines is puzzling.

[Motorin']

1 hour ago, sherpa said:

 

I am commenting based on my experience, which is seven years of planning against them, the last two and a half an an adversary pilot, studying their tactics and weapons and presenting them to US fighters and other air forces.

The US performance in Iraq was military nearly flawless.

This is a a strange non use of capability, terrible planning and poor execution.

The lack of a professional NCO group is obvious, but their Air Force sitting on the sidelines is puzzling.

 

Perhaps they wanted to save their AF in the event they actually face off against NATO?

 

And now that it looks like NATO won't intervene directly, I wonder if they ramp up their AF use?

[Niagara Bill]

It is time to get real close to China. We know what Russia and Putin are. We need China to be actually neutral or leaning to the west.

IMHO, a pre emotive strike will be required, by year end. Moldova, Romania,  Poland. Where is the line? Does the west value freedom, or only our freedom?

1938 is here folks, again.

[sherpa]

6 minutes ago, Niagara Bill said:

It is time to get real close to China. We know what Russia and Putin are. We need China to be actually neutral or leaning to the west.

IMHO, a pre emotive strike will be required, by year end.

 

That isn't going to happen.

[PetermansRedemption]

28 minutes ago, Niagara Bill said:

It is time to get real close to China. We know what Russia and Putin are. We need China to be actually neutral or leaning to the west.

IMHO, a pre emotive strike will be required, by year end. Moldova, Romania,  Poland. Where is the line? Does the west value freedom, or only our freedom?

1938 is here folks, again.

If China were to be made priority number 1 then offering to not interfere in any Taiwanese issues would probably be quite the olive branch. 

[T&C]

I'm no expert but I have to wonder why this forty mile line hasn't been taken out yet... they've been sitting there like sitting ducks for days.

[Coffeesforclosers]

13 hours ago, sherpa said:

 

The lack of a professional NCO group is obvious, but their Air Force sitting on the sidelines is puzzling.

 

Yeah...why do you think that is? 

 

The other thing is why the hell is 1st Guards Tank Army deployed near Kharkiv, rather than leading the drive on Kyiv or Mariupol?  It's supposed to be Russia's A Team in terms of gear, training, and quality of leadership.  But it's doing a fixing/screening mission against Ukraine's best units instead of trying to win the war?

[John Adams]

22 hours ago, PetermansRedemption said:

I agree that Putin completely underestimated his ability to unite the west. I never thought I’d see the day where republicans and democrats and all of the western world was united on a cause. However, when it comes to the bolded, there’s really no way to know that yet. We don’t have accurate casualty figures, just propaganda from one side or the other. It took the US 3 weeks to capture Baghdad and that wasn’t an embarrassing military performance. Forces, no matter how superior, take time to move and capture land against inferior forces. If Ukraine is still holding on in a months time, it would absolutely be an embarrassing failure for the Russian military. 

I would spin your first sentence that he overestimated his campaign to sow division. It’s worked to divide the US but not Europe as much as he hoped. 

[All_Pro_Bills]

14 hours ago, Niagara Bill said:

It is time to get real close to China. We know what Russia and Putin are. We need China to be actually neutral or leaning to the west.

IMHO, a pre emotive strike will be required, by year end. Moldova, Romania,  Poland. Where is the line? Does the west value freedom, or only our freedom?

1938 is here folks, again.

Prior to Russia's attack U.S. representatives shared intelligence on Russia with China in an effort to get them on-board to discourage Putin from taking miliary action against Ukraine.  They declined and immediately forwarded the intelligence information on to Russia.  That's all you need to know about where China stands. 

 

Unlike Russia, China has a lot of supporters and advocates among America's elites and corporations through what they call "elite capture", infiltrating US academic and research institutions, and the cultivation of lucrative business and personal relationships with US entities and individuals that keep the pro-China propaganda flowing while domestically discouraging criticism of Xi and the CCP.  Hollywood for example, won't even dare to put out a film or TV series that might anger or insult the Chinese leadership.  They're all bought off to betray America in the service of China.  

 

Russia is basically a top-tier 3rd world economy with nuclear weapons supported by an autocratic ruling class.  In a conventional war it's likely the U.S. military could wipe them out in a matter of weeks.  China is a bigger threat than Russia. But its a threat of our own making in a trade off for cheap consumer goods and a market for US debt instruments.  A deal with the Devil that surprisingly (I gest because its not a surprise) went bad.  Advanced under the faulty theory of constructive engagement.  Right now they sit back and patiently watch for the time where opportunity to act presents itself.  We can trust China as far as you can throw an Elephant.  

Edited March 6, 2022 by All_Pro_Bills

[Niagara Bill]

19 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

Prior to Russia's attack U.S. representatives shared intelligence on Russia with China in an effort to get them on-board to discourage Putin from taking miliary action against Ukraine.  They declined and immediately forwarded the intelligence information on to Russia.  That's all you need to know about where China stands. 

 

Unlike Russia, China has a lot of supporters and advocates among America's elites and corporations through what they call "elite capture", infiltrating US academic and research institutions, and the cultivation of lucrative business and personal relationships with US entities and individuals that keep the pro-China propaganda flowing while domestically discouraging criticism of Xi and the CCP.  Hollywood for example, won't even dare to put out a film or TV series that might anger or insult the Chinese leadership.  They're all bought off to betray America in the service of China.  

 

Russia is basically a top-tier 3rd world economy with nuclear weapons supported by an autocratic ruling class.  In a conventional war it's likely the U.S. military could wipe them out in a matter of weeks.  China is a bigger threat than Russia. But its a threat of our own making in a trade off for cheap consumer goods and a market for US debt instruments.  A deal with the Devil that surprisingly (I gest because its not a surprise) went bad.  Advanced under the faulty theory of constructive engagement.  Right now they sit back and patiently watch for the time where opportunity to act presents itself.  We can trust China as far as you can throw an Elephant.  

Excellent summary. 

I believe the west will have to step in the way of Putin unless his own supporters do it first. Before stepping in we must understand China's reactive position. Does the relationship of Putin and the CCP run deeper and is there an underlying plan for communists to own the globe, as we all suspected in the 50s, 60s. 

[B-Man]

 

 

 

[Coffeesforclosers]

7 hours ago, B-Man said:

 

 

 

 

 

What do you think of the author's essay?  I read it and it's the sort of sneering, elitist alphabet soup you'd expect from some Ivory tower egg head spinning his pet theory like it's scripture.

Edited March 7, 2022 by Coffeesforclosers

[Motorin']

 

Will Kyiv even contemplate this offer? If they decide to hold out, and the Russians can squeeze their capital and starve them out, the terms could get much worse. 

 

Meeting of the Foreign Ministers Thursday in Turkey. Could we see a negotiated end by the end of the week?

On 3/6/2022 at 6:10 AM, All_Pro_Bills said:

Prior to Russia's attack U.S. representatives shared intelligence on Russia with China in an effort to get them on-board to discourage Putin from taking miliary action against Ukraine.  They declined and immediately forwarded the intelligence information on to Russia.  That's all you need to know about where China stands. 

 

Unlike Russia, China has a lot of supporters and advocates among America's elites and corporations through what they call "elite capture", infiltrating US academic and research institutions, and the cultivation of lucrative business and personal relationships with US entities and individuals that keep the pro-China propaganda flowing while domestically discouraging criticism of Xi and the CCP.  Hollywood for example, won't even dare to put out a film or TV series that might anger or insult the Chinese leadership.  They're all bought off to betray America in the service of China.  

 

Russia is basically a top-tier 3rd world economy with nuclear weapons supported by an autocratic ruling class.  In a conventional war it's likely the U.S. military could wipe them out in a matter of weeks.  China is a bigger threat than Russia. But its a threat of our own making in a trade off for cheap consumer goods and a market for US debt instruments.  A deal with the Devil that surprisingly (I gest because its not a surprise) went bad.  Advanced under the faulty theory of constructive engagement.  Right now they sit back and patiently watch for the time where opportunity to act presents itself.  We can trust China as far as you can throw an Elephant.  

 

I think we should use China's support of this war against the Ukrainian people to turn this around. And it should start with an international investigation into the origins of CV-19. 

Edited March 7, 2022 by Motorin'

[Tenhigh]

14 hours ago, Coffeesforclosers said:

 

 

What do you think of the author's essay?  I read it and it's the sort of sneering, elitist alphabet soup you'd expect from some Ivory tower egg head spinning his pet theory like it's scripture.

The guy's writing style is clearly that of a  pretentious douche nozzle.   

 

But he has some valid points. 

[Coffeesforclosers]

21 minutes ago, Tenhigh said:

The guy's writing style is clearly that of a  pretentious douche nozzle.   

 

But he has some valid points.

 

If you can boil them down to "wake up sheeple, the (insert his favorite bad guys here) are lying to you", why bother with the SAT word salad? 

[Tenhigh]

6 minutes ago, Coffeesforclosers said:

 

If you can boil them down to "wake up sheeple, the (insert his favorite bad guys here) are lying to you", why bother with the SAT word salad? 

I agree.  He has some intelligent things to say, its too bad he spends so much time posing as an intellectual, it is a drag on his credibility. 

[Tenhigh]

To sum it up, I'd say this:

Russia's invasion of Ukraine is a tragedy.

The political elite class is wholly controlling the narrative, and it is wholly biased and often bereft of truth. 

The press is printing that narrative, and demonizing any who question or dissent. 

This could lead to the downfall of western civilization.  

 

Edited March 7, 2022 by Tenhigh

[Tiberius]

1 hour ago, Tenhigh said:

To sum it up, I'd say this:

Russia's invasion of Ukraine is a tragedy.

The political elite class is wholly controlling the narrative, and it is wholly biased and often bereft of truth. 

The press is printing that narrative, and demonizing any who question or dissent. 

This could lead to the downfall of western civilization.  

 

How? 

[Tenhigh]

3 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

How? 

I could be like your twin, Billsy, and tell you to do your own homework.  But here you go:

 

https://unherd.com/2022/03/how-western-elites-exploit-ukraine/

"But wedded to a disturbing, yet ascendant, neo-McCarthyism, the homogenisation of the Western media environment could ultimately prove more ominous than simple government censorship à la North Korea or Iran. At its core, the phenomenon aims to condition public opinion into “correct” acceptable speech patterns in the service of the “noble lie” — using the good heart of most ordinary citizens and their repulsion at human suffering as bait.

This noxious development, unless fully defanged and neutralised, could yet tear the very fabric of Western society, unleashing the dystopia of internalised totalitarianism, wherein the public-private boundaries disappear and citizens — even informed ones — can hardly distinguish between planted or socially-reinforced information and their own views. In such a world, the only choice is to virtue signal and self-censor.

Gone unchecked, it could amount to mass indoctrination around key national security questions and spell the end of democracy — in spirit if not procedurally. This is the ultimate fog of war.: