Walter Football Mock with the Hot Take on our MLB

[Buffalo_Stampede]

3 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

The problem is that it when people use hyperbole like "bust" to describe something much more nuanced it opens up the floor to the chicken heads to start clucking about how everyone hates said player.

 

Some may not forgive that player for only being an average player overall............but the legitimate criticism of Edmunds is just that.

 

He's basically at the level of scrutiny here that has generally been reserved for QB's like Tyrod Taylor and Ryan Fitzpatrick.............who were often over-defended because their apologists were worried about the alternative more than the actual belief that they were much better than their critics said they were.  

 

No, I look at team performance plus his negative impact to determine if he's a liability and should be replaced. I don't see the negative impact you do. What we're missing with Edmunds is the positive impact. He doesn't make a difference on film. 

 

For the most part he's doing his job of filling his gap and covering his zone. We would know if he wasn't, and it's pretty glaring when he doesn't. But it doesn't happen often.

 

 

 

 

 

[Lost]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

SMDH.  Look, if Edmunds is absolutely a bust, and at best a servicable linebacker, why on earth would any other team trade him for a "more dominant and developed linebacker"?   If he's a bust, we'd be trading him for a low pick and needing to trade high value resources for a "more dominant and developed" LB.

 

 

So you're saying Edmunds is worth $12 million per year?   

 

This is my opinion, but aside from corner, MLB is our most pressing need on D.   I'm good with drafting a CB.  I'm good with drafting OL.  Playing ILB in our defensive scheme is a lot more challenging and having someone who already is a proven playmaker and has experience is a huge bonus especially since most of our defensive draft picks in recent years haven't lived up to expectations.    So yeah, I'm cool with trading Edmunds for a 2nd or 3rd round pick, picking up a mid tier UFA who will sign for less to replace him and perform better.   It's quite possible other teams might over value him anyway just due to his athletic ability.  

[BADOLBILZ]

19 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

No, I look at team performance plus his negative impact to determine if he's a liability and should be replaced. I don't see the negative impact you do. What we're missing with Edmunds is the positive impact. He doesn't make a difference on film. 

 

For the most part he's doing his job of filling his gap and covering his zone. We would know if he wasn't, and it's pretty glaring when he doesn't. But it doesn't happen often.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Things a player CAN'T and DOESN'T do can also be a negative.

 

2016 Bills offense under Tyrod Taylor thru 15 games(prior to his benching) was 7th in the NFL in scoring.......1st in the NFL in plays over 20 yards(big plays) and 1st in rushing(both for the second consecutive season)..........and had turned the ball over fewer times than any team in the SB era.

 

Statistically the best offense the Bills had fielded since 1991.

 

It wasn't the mistakes with Taylor.........it was the lack of plays he made as a pocket passer.

 

The lack of plays made is the issue with Edmunds...........you can play excellent defense AROUND Edmunds the same way that you could play excellent offense AROUND Taylor...................but if you need him to be a difference maker you are SOL...........and that's not what you draft a guy in the middle of round 1 to be.

 

 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

41 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Things a player CAN'T and DOESN'T do can also be a negative.

 

2016 Bills offense under Tyrod Taylor thru 15 games(prior to his benching) was 7th in the NFL in scoring.......1st in the NFL in plays over 20 yards(big plays) and 1st in rushing(both for the second consecutive season)..........and had turned the ball over fewer times than any team in the SB era.

 

Statistically the best offense the Bills had fielded since 1991.

 

It wasn't the mistakes with Taylor.........it was the lack of plays he made as a pocket passer.

 

The lack of plays made is the issue with Edmunds...........you can play excellent defense AROUND Edmunds the same way that you could play excellent offense AROUND Taylor...................but if you need him to be a difference maker you are SOL...........and that's not what you draft a guy in the middle of round 1 to be.

 

 

It's not the same because you're talking about a top defense the majority of Edmunds career. 

 

Defense has finished 1, 14, 2, and 3. Edmunds has played nearly 100% of the snaps. By far the most of any LB/DL on the Bills since entering the league.

 

Had Tyrod Taylor's offense had that production he'd still be a starting QB. By the way that's such an odd comparison.

 

Edited February 25, 2022 by Buffalo_Stampede

[NoSaint]

Walter lives in his moms basement and is nothing special. 
 

tremaine is a good, not great, linebacker 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

4 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

 

tremaine is a good, not great, linebacker 

Exactly. The debate comes when discussing how much he's worth. I don't think he's worth top money. But he's work Milano money, maybe a tad higher with league inflation.

[frostbitmic]

If Edmunds is as bad at football as TBD makes him out to be, why is anyone talking getting a 2nd or 3rd for him ? ... Sounds like we'd be lucky to get a jelly donut for him.

[BADOLBILZ]

37 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

It's not the same because you're talking about a top defense the majority of Edmunds career. 

 

Defense has finished 1, 14, 2, and 3. Edmunds has played nearly 100% of the snaps. By far the most of any LB/DL on the Bills since entering the league.

 

Had Tyrod Taylor's offense had that production he'd still be a starting QB. By the way that's such an odd comparison.

 

 

 

It's a great comparison actually.

 

What you are dazed and confused about is thinking that the positions are of equal importance/impact on the success of their respective units.

 

They are not............you aren't going to have a multi-year top 1-2 ranked offensive yardage unit without a dynamic, superstar QB.

 

You don't need a star MLB to field a top ranked yardage defense.

[JaCrispy]

2 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

He's mostly playing space rather than chasing guys around. 

 

I think the biggest issue I have with Edmunds is he's basically the same player he was 3 years ago. There isn't much growth, which is disappointing due to the fact he's been in the same system his whole career.

 

But again I don't see him as a liability. He's a dependable player, only missed a couple games I believe. Always on the field. In our defense having a dependable Mike is huge because we play mostly nickle.

So basically he’s Kelvin Sheppard, but with better hair...😉

[DrPJax]

16 hours ago, JayBaller10 said:

Tremaine hasn’t been a “huge bust,” but he hasn’t been a difference maker either. His instincts are below average for a MLB, but his size and athleticism are elite. Put the two together and you get a slightly above average linebacker, though I couldn’t argue if someone else were to just call him “average.”
Despite being the defensive captain and getting everyone set on defense, his mental acuity and processing do him no favors. I don’t think he’ll ever be a defensive playmaker, a guy the opposing team absolutely fears and has to account for.

So using your terms , instincts below average, hasn’t been a difference maker , slightly above average, wouldn’t argue if someone called him average , his mental acuity and processing do him no favors. , I don’t think he’ll ever be a defensive playmaker, not a guy opposing teams have to account for. Those are YOUR words !   Take away the name and by any other means ,a 1 st round 16 th pick whi was traded up for and now entering his 5 th year and the club has yet to exercise a new contract or options , and to me that’s about as close to the definition of a bust as one can come.  Plus he is stiff and not all that athletic compared to other LBs who are difference  makers and what’s the argument that all thise deficiencies make him GOod?  Haha, you have just pointed out what a bust is , and while maybe not as bad as ford as a bust , his play is not impactful and we get torched in the middle all the time. Many sites have him ranked 32 nd amine inside LBs.  
 

For a first round draft pick who we spent two picks to acquire, usuing your own words, this guy is a bust as he is used. If all you expect is below average play from your first round picks In their  5 th year , then the bar you set is lower than any other club I have read about. He comes up small in big games.  Look up how many ints, how many career PBUs he has as such a fast athletic body supposedly and he is a consummate underperformer.  Call me the next time he makes a game winning play. Nice guy, no instincts, plays soft 95% of the time. Why people keep apologizing for this guy amazes me. He’s young but is a vet of the nfl. By now he is what he is. There may be worse LBs , but no one can argue in good faith this is all you expected drafting him that high. We can’t  do worse drafting and allowing someone to compete with him. It’s delusional to think he is a. Impact Lb. Read your own words and let them sink in and be honest , you actually believe no one could do better if drafted and given 4 years to develop?  I would try as it’s hard to believe we coukd do any worse. He is , as you state , below average and feared by no one !  Facts are facts. 

[BADOLBILZ]

51 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

Walter lives in his moms basement and is nothing special. 
 

tremaine is a good, not great, linebacker 

 

 

2021 All Pro MLB DeVondre Campbell is a free agent and is projected to get just a 2 year deal in the $6M-$9M aav range.

 

Tremaine's cap figure is $12.7M.

 

With Tremaine.......less is A LOT more..........but that's what can happen when you draft an off-ball LB in round 1 and they don't turn into a star player...........5th year options punish you if you don't use your #1 on the actual big money positions.

 

[Brand J]

27 minutes ago, DrPJax said:

So using your terms , instincts below average, hasn’t been a difference maker , slightly above average, wouldn’t argue if someone called him average , his mental acuity and processing do him no favors. , I don’t think he’ll ever be a defensive playmaker, not a guy opposing teams have to account for. Those are YOUR words !   Take away the name and by any other means ,a 1 st round 16 th pick whi was traded up for and now entering his 5 th year and the club has yet to exercise a new contract or options , and to me that’s about as close to the definition of a bust as one can come.  Plus he is stiff and not all that athletic compared to other LBs who are difference  makers and what’s the argument that all thise deficiencies make him GOod?  Haha, you have just pointed out what a bust is , and while maybe not as bad as ford as a bust , his play is not impactful and we get torched in the middle all the time. Many sites have him ranked 32 nd amine inside LBs.  
 

For a first round draft pick who we spent two picks to acquire, usuing your own words, this guy is a bust as he is used. If all you expect is below average play from your first round picks In their  5 th year , then the bar you set is lower than any other club I have read about. He comes up small in big games.  Look up how many ints, how many career PBUs he has as such a fast athletic body supposedly and he is a consummate underperformer.  Call me the next time he makes a game winning play. Nice guy, no instincts, plays soft 95% of the time. Why people keep apologizing for this guy amazes me. He’s young but is a vet of the nfl. By now he is what he is. There may be worse LBs , but no one can argue in good faith this is all you expected drafting him that high. We can’t  do worse drafting and allowing someone to compete with him. It’s delusional to think he is a. Impact Lb. Read your own words and let them sink in and be honest , you actually believe no one could do better if drafted and given 4 years to develop?  I would try as it’s hard to believe we coukd do any worse. He is , as you state , below average and feared by no one !  Facts are facts. 

This sounds pretty angry 😂 Did Edmunds take your Christmas toys or something? 

I said he wasn’t a “huge bust,” correct. And I still feel that way even after having read the vitriol in your post. I don’t know where, how, or why you came to the conclusion after reading my post that I’m an Edmunds apologist.
 

Who thinks he’s an impact LB?? I know a few on this board believe that but certainly not me! I’ve said time and time again I’d like to move on from Edmunds, not because he flat out sucks, but because I’m sure the dollar value of his contract having made 2 pro bowls will be overvalued and I want no part of that. Beane’s actions going forward will tell me about him as a GM more so than any other move. Im curious to see what he does with Edmunds and if I was in his place, I’d be feverishly working the phones seeking a trade from some other team who overvalues him. 

As far as your assertion that Edmunds is “not all that athletic compared to other LBs,” the numbers prove that’s a lie. He had a 9.7 relative athletic score which isn’t too far away from Micah Parson’s 9.78. Now, one of those players maximizes his athletic potential because he’s also equipped with the instincts that enables him to play fast. The other does not, consistently, and is why I called him a slightly above average to average MLB.
 

Just because he hasn’t lived up to the lofty expectations of a 16th overall pick in the NFL Draft does not make him a bust.

Edited February 26, 2022 by JayBaller10

[MasterStrategist]

From my perspective, he is certainly not on the same tier as the likes of Darius Leonard and Fred Warner (his two closest comps).  He could still get there, but each passing year looks unlikely.  That's all to say, he is still a very good player, and certainly not a bust. 

 

If we'd release him, more than half the league would be reconsidering their MLB situation and putting an offer out for him. 

 

Where it gets tricky is his contract vs potential (he is still young), and the fact our front four is just average to below average (IMO).   $12-16m per year seems in the range, looking at other MLB contracts (Blake Martinez, Joe Shobert each above 10m per), Dion Jones at $14m per.  Leonhard and Warner at $19m per.

 

If we had an above average to very good front four, I truly think he'd make alot more impactful plays.  We generate zero pass rush without blitzing and have been just OK, at the DT position (Ed is fine, our 1 DT has been bad the past 2 years...Harry to me is not the answer).  Not physical in the front 4, and that's what Indy and SF have, certainly helps Darius and Fred.

 

 

[newcam2012]

2 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Things a player CAN'T and DOESN'T do can also be a negative.

 

2016 Bills offense under Tyrod Taylor thru 15 games(prior to his benching) was 7th in the NFL in scoring.......1st in the NFL in plays over 20 yards(big plays) and 1st in rushing(both for the second consecutive season)..........and had turned the ball over fewer times than any team in the SB era.

 

Statistically the best offense the Bills had fielded since 1991.

 

It wasn't the mistakes with Taylor.........it was the lack of plays he made as a pocket passer.

 

The lack of plays made is the issue with Edmunds...........you can play excellent defense AROUND Edmunds the same way that you could play excellent offense AROUND Taylor...................but if you need him to be a difference maker you are SOL...........and that's not what you draft a guy in the middle of round 1 to be.

 

 

Agree and that's why many think the "bust" label is accurate. The term is relative and ambiguous in how it's interpreted. Kind of like the legal term " probable cause." 

1 hour ago, NoSaint said:

Walter lives in his moms basement and is nothing special. 
 

tremaine is a good, not great, linebacker 

What makes you think he is good? What does he do well? Anyone? Shed blocks? Coverage tight ends? Rush the passer? Tackle running backs? Contain gap control? Rush the passer? Get ints and fumbles? Make big plays? This year I watched every game and 75% of the games I'm not sure I heard his name called. Forget he was on the field. You think you would see and hear from your LB often.  Maybe I'm missing something...

[Brand J]

15 minutes ago, MasterStrategist said:

From my perspective, he is certainly not on the same tier as the likes of Darius Leonard and Fred Warner (his two closest comps).  He could still get there, but each passing year looks unlikely.  That's all to say, he is still a very good player, and certainly not a bust. 

 

If we'd release him, more than half the league would be reconsidering their MLB situation and putting an offer out for him. 

 

Where it gets tricky is his contract vs potential (he is still young), and the fact our front four is just average to below average (IMO).   $12-16m per year seems in the range, looking at other MLB contracts (Blake Martinez, Joe Shobert each above 10m per), Dion Jones at $14m per.  Leonhard and Warner at $19m per.

 

If we had an above average to very good front four, I truly think he'd make alot more impactful plays.  We generate zero pass rush without blitzing and have been just OK, at the DT position (Ed is fine, our 1 DT has been bad the past 2 years...Harry to me is not the answer).  Not physical in the front 4, and that's what Indy and SF have, certainly helps Darius and Fred.

 

 

This feels like a 30 for 30, “what if I told you…?”

So here’s mine - what if I told you that according to ESPN, the Bills DL finished 6th in pass rush win rate?

[newcam2012]

55 minutes ago, DrPJax said:

So using your terms , instincts below average, hasn’t been a difference maker , slightly above average, wouldn’t argue if someone called him average , his mental acuity and processing do him no favors. , I don’t think he’ll ever be a defensive playmaker, not a guy opposing teams have to account for. Those are YOUR words !   Take away the name and by any other means ,a 1 st round 16 th pick whi was traded up for and now entering his 5 th year and the club has yet to exercise a new contract or options , and to me that’s about as close to the definition of a bust as one can come.  Plus he is stiff and not all that athletic compared to other LBs who are difference  makers and what’s the argument that all thise deficiencies make him GOod?  Haha, you have just pointed out what a bust is , and while maybe not as bad as ford as a bust , his play is not impactful and we get torched in the middle all the time. Many sites have him ranked 32 nd amine inside LBs.  
 

For a first round draft pick who we spent two picks to acquire, usuing your own words, this guy is a bust as he is used. If all you expect is below average play from your first round picks In their  5 th year , then the bar you set is lower than any other club I have read about. He comes up small in big games.  Look up how many ints, how many career PBUs he has as such a fast athletic body supposedly and he is a consummate underperformer.  Call me the next time he makes a game winning play. Nice guy, no instincts, plays soft 95% of the time. Why people keep apologizing for this guy amazes me. He’s young but is a vet of the nfl. By now he is what he is. There may be worse LBs , but no one can argue in good faith this is all you expected drafting him that high. We can’t  do worse drafting and allowing someone to compete with him. It’s delusional to think he is a. Impact Lb. Read your own words and let them sink in and be honest , you actually believe no one could do better if drafted and given 4 years to develop?  I would try as it’s hard to believe we coukd do any worse. He is , as you state , below average and feared by no one !  Facts are facts. 

Great breakdown and post! I agree 100%. 

[jethro_tull]

6 hours ago, Lost said:

For where he was drafted and his current contract, Edmunds is absolutely a bust.   He could surely be a serviceable LB somewhere in the league but that's it.   He's not worth more than $6-8 million a year with his current performance.  I'd prefer the Bills trade him for a more dominant and developed MLB instead of drafting another prospect.  

Is he living up to the 16th overall pick?  Flat out no.  At this point nobody can deny it.   

[Hapless Bills Fan]

3 hours ago, Lost said:

So you're saying Edmunds is worth $12 million per year?   

 

How on earth did you get that from what I wrote?

 

What I'm saying is "if Edmunds is absolutely a bust, and at best a servicable linebacker, why on earth would any other team trade him for a "more dominant and developed linebacker"?   If he's a bust, we'd be trading him for a low pick and needing to trade high value resources for a "more dominant and developed" LB."

 

Edmunds has $12M of fully guaranteed salary for next year.  If you think he's a bust, why on earth would another team take that on, even if all they give us in return is a bag of peanuts?

 

3 hours ago, Lost said:

So yeah, I'm cool with trading Edmunds for a 2nd or 3rd round pick, picking up a mid tier UFA who will sign for less to replace him and perform better.   It's quite possible other teams might over value him anyway just due to his athletic ability.  

 

Again, LOL.  You think he's a bust, so other teams will line up to take on his $12M salary AND give us a 2nd or 3rd round pick, on a 1 year rental.

 

 

[Alphadawg7]

14 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

I know nothing about Nakobe Dean

 

"Walter Football" has historically been the creation of a high school (then college) dude named Walter Cherepinsky who likes football and has managed to turn it into a living.  Good for him, but think Cover1 (or some of the guys here) without the actual football knowledge.

 

And sheesh!  For a website someone is trying to make a living from, the formatting is abhominable.

 

I'd be surprised if

1) McDermott and Beane are happy with where Edmunds is as their MLB

2) McDermott and Beane regard him as a "huge bust"

 

Huge bust, to me, is when you get a guy who just can't play.  Aaron Maybin was a huge bust.  John McCargo was a huge bust.  Darron Lee is a huge bust.

 

Edmunds can play football, they were just hoping for Luke Kuechly  - a star - or maybe Lavonte David.  And that's not seeming likely.

I agree with most of this.  My only note would be that I suspect Beane and McD might feel a little better about Edmunds play than a lot of the fan base does.  I don't know if they like him enough to do what it takes to keep him or not, but Edmunds is better at his job than he gets credit for around here.  A lot of what people don't like about Edmunds play is in how he is used a lot in our defense.  Its one of the reasons I was hoping Frazier would get a HC job so we can see how another DC might be able to get our of Edmunds this next season.  

[DCofNC]

Omg I love it.