What the Defense is really missing...

[Augie]

3 minutes ago, Riverboat Ritchie said:

Other than McD presser at end of year, any idea or news on Tre recovery?  Curious what is time line and if will be ready by camp?  Is he rehabing in BLO or elsewhere?  I’m sure it has been discussed before but appreciate any info

 

Watching Rams d in super bowl and Darnold lining up all over the place and last 13 seconds showed our lack of SA and scheming hold them back a ton. We could use a stud rusher and another stellar corner opposite Tre but does seem like biggest thing holding us back to being elite is coaching. 

 

Yeah, there was a miscommunication late in the playoff game, and the guy at fault is gone (quietly and with class). We went SEVENTEEN YEARS without a playoff appearance, and now we are a regular Super Bowl favorite. Sure, let’s bash the coaching.

 

Are we NOT elite? Is that what you are saying? We messed up, we didn’t win the Super Bowl. There are 31 other teams that can say the same thing, but we had a better shot than most of them. That loss to the Chiefs was one of the best football games I’ve ever seen. Sadly, it had a bad ending. 

 

Everyone has needs, and we have ours. I think we generally handle filling them as well as anyone. Another great CB would be awesome, but I trust our group to pick and coach up DB’s. 

 

Tre will be back, but it will probably take until later in the season for him to feel like the real deal again. 

[Augie]

2 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

Frazier and McD are still here…

 

Say it, what is your point? Should they not be? 

 

 

.

Edited February 25, 2022 by Augie

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

I disagree with the notion that the defense wasn't a paper tiger to a degree. They absolutely whooped every below average to terrible offense they faced this year and they faced an abnormally large amount of those bad offenses this year. But they did not perform well against any of the above average offenses that I recall. Titans, Colts, Bucs all put up a lot of yards and points and those were basically the only good offenses we faced. Could throw in the Chiefs but that was at a time when they were struggling.

 

I also think it is telling that the Patriots also had this dominating defense most the year by the statistics but clearly they could not stop the Bills offense at all with the exception of 30+ mph winds. Another paper tiger defense inside our own division playing many of the same below average offenses. And even Miami went on there winning streak when their defense started dominating the bad offenses on their schedule. I'd say there were three paper tiger defenses in the division.

[Augie]

1 minute ago, ScottLaw said:

You are blaming special teams for the incredibly awful defensive breakdown with 13 seconds left…

 

You didn’t answer my two questions. 

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

22 minutes ago, Augie said:

 

You didn’t answer my two questions. 

 

I know that is not directed to me but I have no idea what the first question is asking. As for the second question. Of course McD should still be here but holy crap did he royally screw up the final 13 seconds. And that includes the the kick off IMO since he is the head coach. But even if we want to give him a pass for the kick off there is no defending the defensive formations of the final 13 seconds. That was a coaching choke job for the ages. 

 

McD gets a pass for taking this team to the playoffs in 4 out of the last 5 seasons after a 17 year playoff drought. I think McD is safe in terms of his near future but I wouldn't rule anything out should the Bills one and done in the playoffs next year or the unthinkable happens and he chokes two consecutive years. 

[Augie]

4 minutes ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

 

I know that is not directed to me but I have no idea what the first question is asking. As for the second question. Of course McD should still be here but holy crap did he royally screw up the final 13 seconds. And that includes the the kick off IMO since he is the head coach. But even if we want to give him a pass for the kick off there is no defending the defensive formations of the final 13 seconds. That was a coaching choke job for the ages. 

 

McD gets a pass for taking this team to the playoffs in 4 out of the last 5 seasons after a 17 year playoff drought. I think McD is safe in terms of his near future but I wouldn't rule anything out should the Bills one and done in the playoffs next year or the unthinkable happens and he chokes two consecutive years. 

 

I thought it was pretty obvious, but I’m happy to try to make it more clear. My first question was “what is your point?” He wanted to complain, just to complain, it appears. I think he knows it’s stupid to come out and say we should replace our coaches based upon how the last game ended. That feels like childish ranting. I don’t want to speak for him, but without an answer, I just have to guess. 

 

If you think McD “gets a pass” but you wouldn’t rule anything out if he goes one and done in the playoffs next year, I respectfully suggest you are also out of touch with reality. We have one of the most highly regarded front offices and coaching staffs in the league. Yep, things went sideways at the end, but adults who see the big picture will be making the decisions. 

 

Look at what you assumed in bold. You ASSUMED the playoffs! Something we missed out on for almost two decades!

 

Nobody is perfect, and we should all strive to learn and get better every year at everything we do. McD has earned my respect, and we are fortunate to have him. 

[Riverboat Ritchie]

1 hour ago, Augie said:

 

Yeah, there was a miscommunication late in the playoff game, and the guy at fault is gone (quietly and with class). We went SEVENTEEN YEARS without a playoff appearance, and now we are a regular Super Bowl favorite. Sure, let’s bash the coaching.

 

Are we NOT elite? Is that what you are saying? We messed up, we didn’t win the Super Bowl. There are 31 other teams that can say the same thing, but we had a better shot than most of them. That loss to the Chiefs was one of the best football games I’ve ever seen. Sadly, it had a bad ending. 

 

Everyone has needs, and we have ours. I think we generally handle filling them as well as anyone. Another great CB would be awesome, but I trust our group to pick and coach up DB’s. 

 

Tre will be back, but it will probably take until later in the season for him to feel like the real deal again. 

I don’t think Defense is elite.  They were good and certain stats might have suggested otherwise but elite, no.  I think part of that was coaching.  

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

21 minutes ago, Augie said:

 

I thought it was pretty obvious, but I’m happy to try to make it more clear. My first question was “what is your point?” He wanted to complain, just to complain, it appears. I think he knows it’s stupid to come out and say we should replace our coaches based upon how the last game ended. That feels like childish ranting. I don’t want to speak for him, but without an answer, I just have to guess. 

 

If you think McD “gets a pass” but you wouldn’t rule anything out if he goes one and done in the playoffs next year, I respectfully suggest you are also out of touch with reality. We have one of the most highly regarded front offices and coaching staffs in the league. Yep, things went sideways at the end, but adults who see the big picture will be making the decisions. 

 

Look at what you assumed in bold. You ASSUMED the playoffs! Something we missed out on for almost two decades!

 

Nobody is perfect, and we should all strive to learn and get better every year at everything we do. McD has earned my respect, and we are fortunate to have him. 

 

Oh i see. I think the first two words threw me off.

 

I don't disagree but it happens. Coaches running their course that is. Even Andy Reid ran out of time in Philadelphia and he had far more success than McDermott. I'm not going to lie. I have an incredibly sour taste in my mouth with how those 13 seconds were handled by McD as I think most fans would. He gets the benefit of the doubt but if it were happen to again? Two years in a row? Or if he gets bounced in the first game? It could happen. Not saying it would. Right or wrong I just see their being an opening for a justification at that point. Prior to this postseason their wasn't an ounce of justification. But through McDermott's own doing there is an once now should the team underperform or McDermott chokes again.

 

I guess where I disagree with you is the idea that the special teams coach is gone and he was the reason why we lost. I certainly blame McDermott more than one special teams mishap. 

[Augie]

3 minutes ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

 

Oh i see. I think the first two words threw me off.

 

I don't disagree but it happens. Coaches running their course that is. Even Andy Reid ran out of time in Philadelphia and he had far more success than McDermott. I'm not going to lie. I have an incredibly sour taste in my mouth with how those 13 seconds were handled by McD as I think most fans would. He gets the benefit of the doubt but if it were happen to again? Two years in a row? Or if he gets bounced in the first game? It could happen. Not saying it would. Right or wrong I just see their being an opening for a justification at that point. Prior to this postseason their wasn't an ounce of justification. But through McDermott's own doing there is an once now should the team underperform or McDermott chokes again.

 

I guess where I disagree with you is the idea that the special teams coach is gone and he was the reason why we lost. I certainly blame McDermott more than one special teams mishap. 

 

I never said he was THE reason we lost. It was ONE reason we lost. I have managed teams of people in my working years. You lay out expectations, and expect them to be executed as designed. Their was a failure there, and ultimately that falls on the HC. And he acted, and now we have a new ST coach. 

 

People are having a hard time getting over a rough loss. I understand that. I ask this: how many other teams look more promising than our Bills? 

 

[Riverboat Ritchie]

1 minute ago, Riverboat Ritchie said:

I don’t think Defense is elite.  They were good and certain stats might have suggested otherwise but elite, no.  I think part of that was coaching.  

 

 

3 minutes ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

 

Oh i see. I think the first two words threw me off.

 

I don't disagree but it happens. Coaches running their course that is. Even Andy Reid ran out of time in Philadelphia and he had far more success than McDermott. I'm not going to lie. I have an incredibly sour taste in my mouth with how those 13 seconds were handled by McD as I think most fans would. He gets the benefit of the doubt but if it were happen to again? Two years in a row? Or if he gets bounced in the first game? It could happen. Not saying it would. Right or wrong I just see their being an opening for a justification at that point. Prior to this postseason their wasn't an ounce of justification. But through McDermott's own doing there is an once now should the team underperform or McDermott chokes again.

 

I guess where I disagree with you is the idea that the special teams coach is gone and he was the reason why we lost. I certainly blame McDermott more than one special teams mishap. 

Agree. While I still think we should of squib it, given our history with the squib and Chiefs speed it was “forgivable”. Those 13 seconds are tough though.  During the called timeouts, we had time to see formation and we still didn’t change anything and let ball go right to their best players largely uncontested. It was unreal.  That jackoff Kelce was mic’d up saying it.  It really seems like the moment was too big for McD and Frazier and that is troubling.  Obviously grateful for what they have done in terms of playoffs and changing culture but that really left a lot of people wondering if they can coach in moments like that and there will hopefully be many more as long as JA17 has the rock. Go Bills. 

[Augie]

15 minutes ago, Riverboat Ritchie said:

I don’t think Defense is elite.  They were good and certain stats might have suggested otherwise but elite, no.  I think part of that was coaching.  

Who had better defenses? Please name them.  The stats say we were pretty darn good. I don’t know how anyone defines “elite”, but we were not a defense that warrants a lot of whining. 

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

2 minutes ago, Augie said:

 

I never said he was THE reason we lost. It was ONE reason we lost. I have managed teams of people in my working years. You lay out expectations, and expect them to be executed as designed. Their was a failure there, and ultimately that falls on the HC. And he acted, and now we have a new ST coach. 

 

People are having a hard time getting over a rough loss. I understand that. I ask this: how many other teams look more promising than our Bills? 

 

 

The only one I can think of is the Bengals because of the cap space.  But their division is a lot tougher than the Bills division and they don't have Josh Allen. With high expectations comes a lot of scrutiny should a team not meet them. So far McDermott has done very well. Let's hope his choke job was a once in a lifetime occurrence. 

2 minutes ago, Augie said:

Who had better defenses? Please name them.  The stats say we were pretty darn good. I don’t know how anyone defines “elite”, but we were not a defense that warrants a lot of whining. 

 

They were a paper tiger defense for sure. They are good but not nearly as good as the stats indicated. Our entire division outside of the Jets were paper tigers on defense. Pats were what the number 2 or 3 defense in the league? But were no punted by the Bills not once but twice. The Dolphins even had an elite level defense during their winning streak which coincided with playing really bad offenses. The common denominator was largely playing the same bad QB's and bad offenses. 

[Augie]

3 minutes ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

 

The only one I can think of is the Bengals because of the cap space.  But their division is a lot tougher than the Bills division and they don't have Josh Allen. With high expectations comes a lot of scrutiny should a team not meet them. So far McDermott has done very well. Let's hope his choke job was a once in a lifetime occurrence. 

 

Cheap owners probably ruin that. Joe Burrow is the next David Carr if they don’t spend the money to protect him. If you think Ralph was cheap, he was the SUPER generous uncle to the Bengals! 

[Don Otreply]

3 hours ago, mjt328 said:

 

Every team has a different answer.  That is my point.

 

I definitely don't think man-coverage is a good plan against Tyreek Hill.  Nor is it smart to blitz a lot.

But you can still mix in a good amount of man coverage against other players on the Chiefs offense.  Send the occasional surprise blitz.  At least keep them guessing.

 

What the Bills do... they do extremely well.

It's just that some opponents require a change-up pitch, and we don't seem to have the players to accomplish that.

 

I think we have the players, I don’t think LF had a plan B last season when it was appropriate to shift to a plan B. 

 

   Our D is over all very good, but needs the occasional tactic shift as warranted.   I am hopeful we see such a thing a couple times this upcoming season. 
 

Go Bills!!!

[Riverboat Ritchie]

5 minutes ago, Augie said:

Who had better defenses? Please name them.  The stats say we were pretty darn good. I don’t know how anyone defines “elite”, but we were not a defense that warrants a lot of whining. 

I realize that if we are going by stats, the Bills would be considered elite ( I’d define as like Olympics top 3 although just pulling that out of a$$ ). But we did play some really bad QBs and at least visually, I’d argue Rams, Cowgirls, Bucs, Chiefs, broncos, niners, raiders, may all of been better than than us. 

[Augie]

24 minutes ago, Riverboat Ritchie said:

I realize that if we are going by stats, the Bills would be considered elite ( I’d define as like Olympics top 3 although just pulling that out of a$$ ). But we did play some really bad QBs and at least visually, I’d argue Rams, Cowgirls, Bucs, Chiefs, broncos, niners, raiders, may all of been better than than us. 

 

So, if you want to ignore statistics, we may have been at least the 8th best on your arbitrary “visual test”?  I can live with that, because it’s not based on much. I like what we have, and where we can go. 

 

BTW - MOST defenses played a LOT of bad QB’s, because there are a lot of bad QB’s out there. I’d argue that a dozen good ones is pushing it. 

 

 

 

.

Edited February 25, 2022 by Augie

[BuffaloBillsGospel]

7 hours ago, mjt328 said:

Over the course of the season (and especially since the divisional playoff game), I've seen lots of complaining about the defense.

Some of the most common claims:

• The Bills defense was a "paper tiger" who were really below average and didn't deserve to be the NFL's #1 unit in points/yards.
• The players are "soft" and cannot stop any decent teams.  Especially those with good QBs.
• We don't have any "elite" players, and we need to trade multiple #1 Picks to obtain one.  (In other words, we need to copy the Rams blueprint).

Then you have the people calling for us to fire Sean McDermott and/or Leslie Frazier.  The cries to cut Tremaine Edmunds and replace most of the D-Line.

 

Personally, I don't buy any of this.  We don't need to a complete overhaul.  We don't need to make a HUGE splash.

What the Defense truly lacks... is VERSATILITY.

 

This team has basically been running the SAME scheme for 5 seasons.

Four man pass rush.  Very little blitzing.  Zone coverage.  Strong tackling after the catch.  Bend-but-don't-break philosophy.

Brandon Beane has supplied the coaching staff with plenty of talent to run the McDermott/Frazier scheme.  Everyone on the roster is a strong fit.  The players know the system well, and are EXCELLENT at running it.  They are VERY fundamentally strong.  In fact, I think it could be argued that our defensive players peaked in many ways during 2021.

 

The problem is... the McDermott/Frazier scheme is NOT the best gameplan for stopping EVERY SINGLE team.  Which is why we have a tendency to absolutely dominate some opponents, and then struggle badly against others.  

• Our front 7 is generally undersized (partially by design).  Which means we often struggle against physical O-Lines and strong running teams.
• Some QBs are patient and can pick zone coverage apart.  Especially when they are expecting to see it all-day.

I also believe the main reason our defense has good "pressure stats" each year, but lack actual sacks - is because every QB/Offensive Coordinator plans short and quick passes against us.  A split second of hesitation (if they weren't sure what the Bills were coming with) would almost certainly result in more QB sacks. 

 

One of the reasons Bill Belichick has fielded a great Defense consistently (even without elite star power), is his ability to adapt and change depending on opponent.  Our current roster simply does not have the versatility to make those kind of changes week-to-week.  McDermott can focus on fundamentals, gap-control, staying mentally tough, etc.  But it's just a simple fact that Buffalo's defense does not match up well against some opponents (Indianapolis was probably the best example of this). 

 

To conquer the NFL playoffs and win the Super Bowl, we can't have games like Kansas City.

In my opinion, adding some versatility should be Beane's primary focus this offseason:

• We need to have a talented space-eater (0 or 1-Tech Nose Tackle) who can occupy blockers when we face run-first teams
• We need 1-2 cornerbacks who can switch between man/zone coverage as-needed

 

Bottom line.  There is no need to make drastic changes.  Just get the pieces needed to switch things up when needed.

 

 

7 hours ago, mjt328 said:

Over the course of the season (and especially since the divisional playoff game), I've seen lots of complaining about the defense.

Some of the most common claims:

• The Bills defense was a "paper tiger" who were really below average and didn't deserve to be the NFL's #1 unit in points/yards.
• The players are "soft" and cannot stop any decent teams.  Especially those with good QBs.
• We don't have any "elite" players, and we need to trade multiple #1 Picks to obtain one.  (In other words, we need to copy the Rams blueprint).

Then you have the people calling for us to fire Sean McDermott and/or Leslie Frazier.  The cries to cut Tremaine Edmunds and replace most of the D-Line.

 

Personally, I don't buy any of this.  We don't need to a complete overhaul.  We don't need to make a HUGE splash.

What the Defense truly lacks... is VERSATILITY.

 

This team has basically been running the SAME scheme for 5 seasons.

Four man pass rush.  Very little blitzing.  Zone coverage.  Strong tackling after the catch.  Bend-but-don't-break philosophy.

Brandon Beane has supplied the coaching staff with plenty of talent to run the McDermott/Frazier scheme.  Everyone on the roster is a strong fit.  The players know the system well, and are EXCELLENT at running it.  They are VERY fundamentally strong.  In fact, I think it could be argued that our defensive players peaked in many ways during 2021.

 

The problem is... the McDermott/Frazier scheme is NOT the best gameplan for stopping EVERY SINGLE team.  Which is why we have a tendency to absolutely dominate some opponents, and then struggle badly against others.  

• Our front 7 is generally undersized (partially by design).  Which means we often struggle against physical O-Lines and strong running teams.
• Some QBs are patient and can pick zone coverage apart.  Especially when they are expecting to see it all-day.

I also believe the main reason our defense has good "pressure stats" each year, but lack actual sacks - is because every QB/Offensive Coordinator plans short and quick passes against us.  A split second of hesitation (if they weren't sure what the Bills were coming with) would almost certainly result in more QB sacks. 

 

One of the reasons Bill Belichick has fielded a great Defense consistently (even without elite star power), is his ability to adapt and change depending on opponent.  Our current roster simply does not have the versatility to make those kind of changes week-to-week.  McDermott can focus on fundamentals, gap-control, staying mentally tough, etc.  But it's just a simple fact that Buffalo's defense does not match up well against some opponents (Indianapolis was probably the best example of this). 

 

To conquer the NFL playoffs and win the Super Bowl, we can't have games like Kansas City.

In my opinion, adding some versatility should be Beane's primary focus this offseason:

• We need to have a talented space-eater (0 or 1-Tech Nose Tackle) who can occupy blockers when we face run-first teams
• We need 1-2 cornerbacks who can switch between man/zone coverage as-needed

 

Bottom line.  There is no need to make drastic changes.  Just get the pieces needed to switch things up when needed.

 

 

I don't think we need a complete overhaul, I don't even take those people serious that say fire Sean McDermott but leslie Frazier on the other hand, the guy lacks the killer mentality and played completely scared on the biggest stage with the brightest lights and instead of going for Mahomes' jugular he opted for the safe route, you never win games by playing scared and not only that but too many times this guy never adjusts no matter if his defense is getting lit up or not he refuses to sway from his game planning. I agree about the space eating NT and 1-2 CB's but we also need a veteran pass rusher not named Hughes or Addison, someone who can come off the edge and get after the QB.... I really like Emmanuel Ogbah and don't get the hate on this kid, he had 45 tackles, 9 sacks, 1 FF, 1 FR in 2021 and almost identical stats the previous year on a bad Dolphins team, our top pass rusher was Mario Addison with 7, I don't think we'll be able to even come close to affording Von Miller/Clowney or Chandler Jones but Ogbah imo is a guy we should definitely be looking at.

[Matt_In_NH]

Don't defend a hail mary and sidelines with 13 seconds left when the opponent just wants a FG attempt and they have timeouts.  Seriously, if they had handled that situation differently we could be discussing a repeat.  You can always improve but McDermott is not some idiot who uses the same gamplan every game like this appears to say.

 

You reference the Pats as being someone that adapts and is versatile.  How did that defense adapt in the wild card playoff game?  The expectation of dominating every opponent is not something that is achievable in today's game.   Not even the great Patriots can or have done that.

[filthymcnasty08]

Some say a good 2 minute defense is key,

 

I say a good 13 second defense can be the difference maker in a season.

 

Yes, it still hurts.

[Robert Paulson]

14 hours ago, whorlnut said:

This is exactly what I’m saying. We aren’t stopping offenses like the chiefs. No one is. If they don’t play well, it’s because they are having an off night. What are we gonna do if we pass on a guy like Jameson Williams or Treylon Burks and the chiefs take them?  Then you are asking your first round corner to cover guys like Hill, Hardman, top rookie. All you end up doing is keep chasing your tail. 

Yes. Exactly. We have the personnel on defense. The coaches let us down. 

Kick short.

 

Hold everyone on first down.

 

Time runs out the next play.

 

We are superbowl Champs and we are doing a hard retool of the lineup this year for another run in 2023-2027

 

Now we are still chasing our first and will keep high priced aging vets another year to try and get it .

 

It still pisses me off