Spotrac spitballs C. Kirk & C. Williams to Bills

[Hapless Bills Fan]

21 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

I find it hard to believe Kirk will want to come to Buffalo.  One, it would have to likely be for less money than he would get elsewhere.  Two, he is going to want a bigger role where he can start as at least a #2 WR.  Coming here, he would be 3 on the WR depth chart and would be a role player rather than a major contributor.  Who ever fills that WR 3 spot, assuming everyone stays healthy, they are likely going to be a 400-700 yard receiver at most.  Too many mouths to feed here between Diggs, Davis, Knox, RB's and Allens legs.  

 

So, not a knock on Buffalo as a destination, its about opportunity and he won't get a lot of those here compared to going to a team where he can step in as one of the main targets right away and likely for more money too.  

 

So I just don't see Kirk as a realistic option for us because we as a team do not make a lot of sense for him.  He is young enough that he doesn't have to ring chase, and he is going to want an opportunity to prove himself and earn an even bigger payday on his next contract.  He will have plenty of suitors too.  

 

Well, there's a couple questions there. 

1) Do the Bills see Davis as a legit #2?  He's had a couple of fantastic games, but many folks here like to remind us that just because Isaiah McKenzie has had a couple of great games, doesn't mean he's a top WR in the league if he were starting.  Sometimes a guy has a great game because the D gameplans to take away receivers they see as bigger threats, or doesn't account for them properly.  Maybe they would see Kirk as that #2

2) as posted above, how do the Bills see Beasley?

 

And a point - Beasley managed to rack up 82 receptions for damned close to 1000 yds in 2020, even while Diggs caught 128 for >1500 and the combination of Brown and Davis (playing when Brown was injured) racked up >1000 yds on 68 receptions.  If the offense is clicking, there is probably room for 3 1000+ yd receivers on the Bills

[ThurmanThomasEnglishMuffin]

I viewed him as a sneaky get when I first looked at the WR FA market.

• Sanders is a FA and was showing his age by season end, am ok letting him walk
• McKenzie is a FA and there is potential hard feelings there with benching and use, would like to keep him, but have a feeling he will test FA aggressively
• Beasley is in his last year. He was #2 in receptions from the slot, and his catch % was still good. But he is 32? and his YPC were below 10, and he struggled at times to get the 1st downs he got earlier in his career. I know a bunch of TBD doesn't like him for non-footbal reasons, I still like the football player and the man. Cutting him does free up a net 6 million, which goes a long way to revamping the losses at WR (I believe Sanders was $6 million last year)

All of this is a way to say I could see Kirk and the Bills being a match.

Diggs/ Davis/ Kirk/ Knox is a nice stable of receiving targets to start a season with

In that situation, I would still want to see a developmental WR taken in the 4th or 5th with no pressure to produce

In that situation, I would also want to see what Stevenson can do, can he be the McKenzie style gadget guy?

 

As for G Conner, I would pass. According to Spotrac Bates is a RFA, so Buffalo has some strategic options on how to retain him and can set a value on him. I believe if Buffalo makes a qualifying offer and some other team blows that away, and Buffalo fails to match Buffalo gets draft compensation? Bates is also just 24 and offers positional flexibility. He pulls better than any other guard we have, and I would like to see him under Kromer's coaching. To the eye test Singletary produced well in pulling schemes once Buffalo started pulling Bates/ Morse.

 

I am all for drafting IOL, as I was last year. (Passing on Humphrey for Basham still burns me up)

Edited February 21, 2022 by ThurmanThomasEnglishMuffin

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

5 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said:

I wonder if we did sign Connor Williams, we could move Daryl Williams to LG?  
I really liked what I saw from Bates but that was only a 5-6 stretch?  We were fooled with Ryan Groy….remember him?

 

Yeah maybe can get D Wiliams to take a pay cut, then agree worth keeping him.  Then could have Williams, Williams, and Morse (sounds like a law firm) inside with Bates as backup or Bates as starter, then draft a C/G to take Morse or D Williams place in 2023.  The other good thing about keeping Daryl is he can still play tackle if needed due to injury.  Then you have Dawkins, Brown, and Doyle outside and either draft another tackle or maybe since Daryl can move outside draft another interior lineman.  That leaves nine.  The one wildcard left is Ike, will they re-sign him?  If they do, likely will start the year on PUP list, could see the team leaving him there unless needed due to injury.

[BADOLBILZ]

15 minutes ago, 947 said:

I really wanted Isabella in the draft. He's surprisingly barely been used by Arizona, 31 catches in 36 career games (49 targets) over 3 seasons in a heavy passing offense. I'd love to get him, but if AZ loses Kirk, they probably have a use for Isabella & will keep him.

 

I think Kirk re-signs with Arizona.   I also think the WR market will be softer than some expect.   Could be wrong but when you see teams start using their #1 WR to play RB it represents a shift in the opinion of teams in the supply/demand ratio at the position, IMO.

[folz]

As we all know, Josh and Kyle know each other from working together with Jordan Palmer.

 

Kyle Allen was born in 1996, grew up in Scottsdale, Arizona, played two years at Texas A&M (2014, 2015)

Christian Kirk was born in 1996; grew up in Scottsdale, AZ; played for a rival high school to K. Allen; was a teammate of K. Allen at Texas A&M (2015)

 

So, the connections for them all hanging out makes sense. But what the purpose was---just mutual friends hanging out or recruitment meeting---is anyone's guess.

[Big Blitz]

We're not in a position to overpay for a guard

 

We already pay a CB 1 salary 

 

We have a team that can win the super bowl.  So this is the proper use of funds:

 

 

If you are only returning Diggs and Davis, you need to sign an upgrade a slot WR - you can't rely on the draft to upgrade the WR position - I'm not saying don't draft one, draft one first if you think he will be a stud but you can't bank on that for 2022.

 

A call has to be made on Davis.  If you know he is WR2 you can't sign an outside WR like say Allen Robinson.  Godwin (too expensive but my #1 choice) or Kirk make sense.  Need someone that can play in the slot.  

 

The safer upgrades thru the draft at 25 is IOL - or if a starting CB is there that's the pick and that's what I'd prefer.  Then go middle of Oline in round 2.  

 

I'd look into CMC no question.  You just make that work and pair him with Singletary.  

 

 

Super Bowl

[BADOLBILZ]

6 minutes ago, Big Blitz said:

We're not in a position to overpay for a guard

 

We already pay a CB 1 salary 

 

We have a team that can win the super bowl.  So this is the proper use of funds:

 

 

If you are only returning Diggs and Davis, you need to sign an upgrade a slot WR - you can't rely on the draft to upgrade the WR position - I'm not saying don't draft one, draft one first if you think he will be a stud but you can't bank on that for 2022.

 

A call has to be made on Davis.  If you know he is WR2 you can't sign an outside WR like say Allen Robinson.  Godwin (too expensive but my #1 choice) or Kirk make sense.  Need someone that can play in the slot.  

 

The safer upgrades thru the draft at 25 is IOL - or if a starting CB is there that's the pick and that's what I'd prefer.  Then go middle of Oline in round 2.  

 

I'd look into CMC no question.  You just make that work and pair him with Singletary.  

 

 

Super Bowl

 

 

I mean..........if you make CMC the slot receiver...........like he should always have been to give him a long career in the NFL............then taking on $12M in unguaranteed cap hits for the next 3 years isn't outrageous..........if he isn't shot from the abuse at RB he might-could be a transcendent slot receiver.

 

For a RB primarily.........that is an awful use of funds though.

 

 

[Motorin']

40 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Well, there's a couple questions there. 

1) Do the Bills see Davis as a legit #2?  He's had a couple of fantastic games, but many folks here like to remind us that just because Isaiah McKenzie has had a couple of great games, doesn't mean he's a top WR in the league if he were starting.  Sometimes a guy has a great game because the D gameplans to take away receivers they see as bigger threats, or doesn't account for them properly.  Maybe they would see Kirk as that #2

2) as posted above, how do the Bills see Beasley?

 

And a point - Beasley managed to rack up 82 receptions for damned close to 1000 yds in 2020, even while Diggs caught 128 for >1500 and the combination of Brown and Davis (playing when Brown was injured) racked up >1000 yds on 68 receptions.  If the offense is clicking, there is probably room for 3 1000+ yd receivers on the Bills

 

Kirk was moved to the slot and had his best season there last year, which in his 4th year was on par with Beasley's best season of 2020. 

 

Kirk isn't a #2 wr replacement, bumping Davis. He's the slot wr replacement for Beasley. 

 

Why would he want to come to Buffalo? Look what Josh did for Beasley, Brown and Diggs careers. 

[DJB]

 

[Johnny Hammersticks]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I think they were all at the WM Phoenix Open.  Josh played in the Pro-Am side last year, doesn't seem to be playing this year but may want to watch.

Also pretty sure Christian Kirk trains as a WR with someone who works with Jordan Palmer.

 

So I wouldn't chalk it up as a "recruiting visit" at this point

 

Well hello, Buzz Killington! 🧐

45 minutes ago, folz said:

As we all know, Josh and Kyle know each other from working together with Jordan Palmer.

 

Kyle Allen was born in 1996, grew up in Scottsdale, Arizona, played two years at Texas A&M (2014, 2015)

Christian Kirk was born in 1996; grew up in Scottsdale, AZ; played for a rival high school to K. Allen; was a teammate of K. Allen at Texas A&M (2015)

 

So, the connections for them all hanging out makes sense. But what the purpose was---just mutual friends hanging out or recruitment meeting---is anyone's guess.

 

Someone wake me when George Seifert’s Datsun is spotted at Buffalo Airport.

[Alphadawg7]

53 minutes ago, hondo in seattle said:

 

If I were FA WR, I'd look for a few things when choosing a team.

 

*  Does the team win?  Is it playoff caliber?

 

*  Do they throw a lot?

 

*  Is the QB any good?

 

*  What role do they want me to play?  Will I be featured or forgotten?  

 

*  How much are they willing to pay?

 

We check most of the boxes though not all.  

 

I think it's possible that the pros outweigh the cons.  

 

 

 

While this list is obviously one that any of these players would consider, you have them out of order and left out that the Bills do NOT check the 2 most important boxes of them all.  Money and Role.  

 

0% chance we are the highest bidder.  0% chance we offer him the biggest role.  

 

Coming off 77 rec and near 1000 yards, he knows this is his shot at taking on a bigger role and setting himself up for a bigger contract 2 to 3 years down the road.  He wont ever get that big contract just going somewhere as a role player again.  

 

Coming here he knows he is behind Diggs and Davis, and unless traded, there is still Cole too.  Then Knox and the RB's take targets as well, plus the run game and Allens legs.  If he signs here, he knows he probably ends up in the 500-700 yard range like hes been in most his career in AZ unless injuries happen.  

 

Cant see a 25 year old WR who has yet to make much money in the NFL give up playing time and money (both now and later) to come here.  Bills are not the only good team in the NFL, he will have interest from teams who can offer him at least a bigger role, if not both more money and a bigger role.  

 

So to me, I like Kirk and would be great to see him here, but its a pipe dream.  Makes no sense for him, and I assure you his agent is going to be trying to get him somewhere he can walk into a starting situation.  We wont be signing an in demand WR in FA...it will be a lesser signing or we will draft one, just from a cap perspective.  

[Big Blitz]

54 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

I mean..........if you make CMC the slot receiver...........like he should always have been to give him a long career in the NFL............then taking on $12M in unguaranteed cap hits for the next 3 years isn't outrageous..........if he isn't shot from the abuse at RB he might-could be a transcendent slot receiver.

 

For a RB primarily.........that is an awful use of funds though.

 

 

 

 

My understanding there is a team out on CMC in 2023.  

[Alphadawg7]

1 minute ago, ScottLaw said:

Is it a given he is behind the inconsistent Davis? 

 

I think so.  Is Davis really inconsistent though or just a guy who had been stuck with a reduced role until Sanders got hurt?  

 

I think Davis proved he needs to be a major part of this offense during the final stretch and playoffs.  And with a new OC, new OL coach, etc...I would think keeping as much continuity around Josh as possible will be a priority.  Allen and Davis have a lot of chemistry, and he is home grown and entering his 3rd year.  

 

And lets be real, what has Kirk done to even indicate he would be a better #2 than Davis?  I mean, its not like Kirk would come in here as a #2 and grossly out produce what Davis could do as a #2.  I would argue Davis likely would have the better season here as a #2 than Kirk would give his chemistry to Allen and knowing the offense.  

 

So why would Beane spend a lot more money on Kirk to be the #2 over Davis on a 4th round rookie deal?  

 

Still baffles me how concerned people are about our offense...the same offense that passed for 9 TD's in 2 games in the playoffs.  

[Mij yllek]

Some possible FA's who are currently on extremely affordable contracts and might not break the bank to sign:

 

OG  Austin Corbett

OT   Morgan Moses

RB   James Connor

OLB Haason reddick

[billsfan_34]

6 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said:

I wonder if we did sign Connor Williams, we could move Daryl Williams to LG?  
I really liked what I saw from Bates but that was only a 5-6 stretch?  We were fooled with Ryan Groy….remember him?

Williams plays solid at RT when our interior is at least average. Im not sure moving him inside helps us, but I am no line expert.

[Bill from NYC]

5 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

Colin Brown was even more of a fools gold situation........he was the 340 pound mountain who looked really good at center in place of Eric Wood in 2012.........so they re-signed him to play LG and he almost single-handedly destroyed the 2013 Bills offense because he was so impossibly bad.    His 2013 was probably the worst season of guard play in the past 50 years of Bills football.

 

WOW!!!! That is saying quite a bit!

 

Jerry Ostroski was bad. Slow DTs used to get past him before he got out of his stance, and the Bills gave him a big raise!!! Posters on TSW would defend him and say that he was good but he was just awful.

 

Still, the worst guard I ever saw was Marcus Spriggs. At times he looked like he had no interest in blocking pass rushers. Once, a defender ran right by him. RJ got the ball away in plenty of time and he got hit late, and I mean HIT. He was on the turf bleeding and struggling to get up. Spriggs looked at him and walked away leaving him on the ground. I am almost sure that this was the game where 2 or perhaps 3 of our LBs (which was the best unit on the team) got injured.  Were they playing Tampa?

 

Painful memories.  

 

[JaCrispy]

Way too much for Kirk...At that price tag, Beasley would be the better value at $7 mil imo...👍

[billsbackto81]

4 hours ago, JoeF said:

Side note....My fatherly (or grandfatherly actually) advice to Josh is to sew up the deal with Brittany.  They seem like a very happy couple.  She appears to enjoy Buffalo and Bills Mafia.

He's 25 and just signed a 250 million dollar deal. Why?

 

What 25 yo worth 250 mil is rushing out to get married? 

 

Not against the sacred institution of marriage but c'mon man. She's not going anywhere. 

 

Hey!! You know what would be cool Josh!

Pop the question at the SB Victory Parade. 

 

Now that would be freaking awesome!

[John from Riverside]

8 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said:

I wonder if we did sign Connor Williams, we could move Daryl Williams to LG?  
I really liked what I saw from Bates but that was only a 5-6 stretch?  We were fooled with Ryan Groy….remember him?

Yeah Bates is not Groy......Ryan Groy didnt come in and immediately make the OL better.

 

Have said that....I am for anything that improves the starters and depth on this line......let them battle it out

[GunnerBill]

7 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Ryan Groy is a good example...........but Colin Brown was even more of a fools gold situation........he was the 340 pound mountain who looked really good at center in place of Eric Wood in 2012.........so they re-signed him to play LG and he almost single-handedly destroyed the 2013 Bills offense because he was so impossibly bad.    His 2013 was probably the worst season of guard play in the past 50 years of Bills football.

 

I have my fingers crossed about Bates but he's going to be cheap enough that he can just be "in the mix" and not penned in as a starter based off a few starts when Josh Allen was pulling out all the stops to move the football.

 

Brown only played a few games didn't he? He started the year played about 4 games was impossiy bad and so cut and they played Doug Legursky who they had signed as insurance at center for the then oft injured Wood as LG the rest of the year where he was little better. 

 

That is my recollection though memory might be failing.