Taiwan Jones on About The Game Pod (Squib related)

[DapperCam]

5 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Well, I don't know if anyone knows what happened, anyone outside the organization.  But what you say sounds plausible.   While Farwell was organizing the kickoff team (or not), McD and Frazier were talking about the defense.  Maybe they were caught flat-footed and didn't react.  Or maybe they DID react, and they just called bad plays for the situation.  

 

I've never understood how the clock works on kickoffs.    The clock doesn't start when the kicker strikes the ball, and if it's a touchback, it never starts.  If the return man catches the ball in the air on the field of play, the clock starts.  If he catches it in the end zone, I assume it starts only when he runs out of the end zone. 

 

Does it start when the ball hits the ground in the field of play, so that on a squib quick it starts with the first bounce?   It's a live ball then, so I suppose that's when it would have started.   Unless the Chief's had a Touchdown Throwback or something similar called, I assume what the return man is told to do is cover the ball and fall on the ground immediately, giving himself up to stop the clock.  So, on almost any squib quick you should be able to run at least three seconds off - a couple of bounces, the guy catches it and goes down.   And if you get a good bounce, it could be five or six seconds.   And if the guy misplays it, maybe even more.    

 

Does someone know if that analysis is correct?   So, a decent squib kick would have run three seconds, and if everything else would have gone exactly the same, the clock would have been at zero by the time Kelce caught the ball, went down and called time out.  Is that right?

I don’t think it starts until it is caught/touched even on a squib. The receiving team can also flop on it and immediately give themselves up, which probably burns like 2 seconds.

 

The winning play is squib it deep, but not into the end zone which would force a return. Or one of those pop up kicks just short of the end zone (which could burn clock and stop them deep on their side of the field with good coverage).

[Mango]

57 minutes ago, NewEra said:

I’m really confused as to how Heath has a job. The most important play call of his career….and his kicker doesn’t know the play call.  This whole thing is nuts 

 

This is one of those things I have a hard time wrapping my head around when it comes to coaches. McKenzie flashes in replacement for Beasley, but puts the ball on the ground once in a regular season game, and rides the pine forever as a backup. 

But your STC botches his main responsibility, which is effectively communicating with his positional group, in the most important moment of his career and the most important kick off in franchise history since January of 2000....

....and he is still around? 

I am not calling for McD's head, or anything like that. But you would think this would also stick out in the mind of a guy like McK. There are just some guys like Ford that keep getting chances, but then Yeldon, McK, Breida, can't sniff the field. 

 

If you are going to make your living on preaching process it is really important that you stay consistent. 

42 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

He doesn't with the Bills anymore.

 

Ah poop. 

 

I did a quick wiki search and it wasn't updated. I thought that was the case. 

Edited February 16, 2022 by Mango

[letsgoteam]

59 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

How does McD not walk over to Bass, grab him by the facemask, and tell him exactly what he wants? There was sooooo much time to get the call right.

I've been surprised that he didnt have the kickoff team huddle up on the sideline to confirm everyone is on the same page about the squib, and a quick reminder to watch for tricks (homerun throwbacks,etc). He doesnt need to be in every huddle, but huge moments like that are an exception. Even if its the ST coach telling all the info, I'm atleast standing their making sure everything is covered

[Shaw66]

10 minutes ago, DapperCam said:

I don’t think it starts until it is caught/touched even on a squib. The receiving team can also flop on it and immediately give themselves up, which probably burns like 2 seconds.

 

The winning play is squib it deep, but not into the end zone which would force a return. Or one of those pop up kicks just short of the end zone (which could burn clock and stop them deep on their side of the field with good coverage).

Thanks.  I just looked it up - you're right.  Clock doesn't start until the kick is touched by the receiving team.   It a free kick is covered by the receiving team, the clock doesn't start.  So they had to do exactly what you said.   And I think if you're the receiving team, the return man is told to go down immediately wherever he is, even if he's deep.   

 

Given all that, it's a tough kick to execute.   If you kick it too hard, receiving team will let it bounce until it gets to the end zone.  If you kick it too short, you've given up valuable yards.  That's why Sean Payton said that in that situation, with a young kicker, he might actually have called for the kick into the end zone.  Take the touchback and don't risk your kicker screwing up.   Think about it this way:   If your kicker rolls it through the end zone, you're no better off than if you'd just kicked it deep in the first place.   You're hoping he can force a recovery inside the 25, but if he fails you could be looking at Mahomes on the 35 or 40.  Essentially, Payton said the benefit of pinning them inside the 25 isn't worth the risk that you might give Mahomes a short field.  

3 minutes ago, letsgoteam said:

I've been surprised that he didnt have the kickoff team huddle up on the sideline to confirm everyone is on the same page about the squib, and a quick reminder to watch for tricks (homerun throwbacks,etc). He doesnt need to be in every huddle, but huge moments like that are an exception. Even if its the ST coach telling all the info, I'm atleast standing their making sure everything is covered

Some people here said that they DID huddle up on the sideline.  The problem apparently was that Bass was practicing at the net and wasn't in the huddle.  

[ColoradoBills]

27 minutes ago, DapperCam said:

I don’t think it starts until it is caught/touched even on a squib. The receiving team can also flop on it and immediately give themselves up, which probably burns like 2 seconds.

 

The winning play is squib it deep, but not into the end zone which would force a return. Or one of those pop up kicks just short of the end zone (which could burn clock and stop them deep on their side of the field with good coverage).

 

Yes the clock starts when a player from receiving team touches the ball "in the field of play".

I don't know about "giving themselves up" ruling.  A player can flop on a ball get up and start running too.

Technically on a normal play clock runs until the ball carrier is touched on the ground or he runs out-of-bounds.

 

You are right with the comment of having Bass kick short but close to the endzone.  That is used a lot by the Bills.

 

Edit:  Clock only starts when receiving team touches.  Kicking team cannot advance the ball.

Edited February 16, 2022 by ColoradoBills

[Momma Pecoraro]

This podcast proves the ubiquitity of microphones is to the detriment of all. 

 

[Steptide]

I think this also shows that they addressed the team about keeping the screw up in house. As soon as free agency hits though and some players sign with other teams (not the giants) the full truth will come out, but pretty sure we already know the gist of it. 

[Big Turk]

43 minutes ago, Mango said:

 

This is one of those things I have a hard time wrapping my head around when it comes to coaches. McKenzie flashes in replacement for Beasley, but puts the ball on the ground once in a regular season game, and rides the pine forever as a backup. 

But your STC botches his main responsibility, which is effectively communicating with his positional group, in the most important moment of his career and the most important kick off in franchise history since January of 2000....

....and he is still around? 

I am not calling for McD's head, or anything like that. But you would think this would also stick out in the mind of a guy like McK. There are just some guys like Ford that keep getting chances, but then Yeldon, McK, Breida, can't sniff the field. 

 

If you are going to make your living on preaching process it is really important that you stay consistent. 

 

Ah poop. 

 

I did a quick wiki search and it wasn't updated. I thought that was the case. 

 

Guess you must have missed this thread I started a few days ago?

 

 

[MasterStrategist]

Two things:

1. I doubt the original call was to squib.  More likely a pooch kick, somewhere in the 5-10 yrd line range.  But as it been said, squib kicks can easily backfire if not executed properly.

 

2. Regardless of the kickoff strategy, the defensive alignment and coverages were HORRENDOUS.  Beating a dead horse at this point, but I'd hope McD learns that you never rush 4 in that situation.  Better to rush 3, jam the Wrs and put an extra defensive back on the field.  This is defensive coaching 101, when trying to protect a small lead with very little time remaining.  Somewhere at an upcoming HS coaching conference, this will be used as an example of what "not to do", in this situation. 

[Shaw66]

2 minutes ago, MasterStrategist said:

Somewhere at an upcoming HS coaching conference, this will be used as an example of what "not to do", in this situation. 

That's the best measure of how badly the Bills played those final two plays in regulation.

[Mango]

10 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

Guess you must have missed this thread I started a few days ago?

 

 

 

I actually commented on that thread that I thought it might have been a mercy move since he was going to be fired anyways. 

[Freddie's Dead]

What a chitchow.  Yet more confirmation that our coaches melted down in the heat of Arrowhead.

Edited February 16, 2022 by Freddie's Dead

[letsgoteam]

42 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Some people here said that they DID huddle up on the sideline.  The problem apparently was that Bass was practicing at the net and wasn't in the huddle.  

Thanks. I personally have no idea, but how many practice kicks does a kicker need? Not blaming Bass for being at the net, but I am curious if any one knows the "normal" routine in those situations. 

[4_kidd_4]

Somehow…some way….we’re still “Billsy”.

 

😕

[BarleyNY]

1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

I'm still wondering why a Kicker doesn't wonder if they might want him to squib it in that scenario.  It's not like the Kicker has to have a lot of plays in his head....

The way I understand the situation is that he was told to kick it through the end zone, then the coaches changed the call. He didn’t get the changed call.  So the kicker was just doing what he was told to do.

[Rew]

First, the kickoff result didn't matter.  I was fine with a touchback and giving 0 chance for a wacky return.  Other coaches have also said that a touchback would be a circumstantial call for them too.  The overall coaching mistake was on the last 2 playcalls.  If KC has the ball at the 10 or the 25 with 13 seconds left there is not a significant difference in win% and you eliminate the risk of a return.

 

On squib kick:. The point of the kick is to force the team to make a decision.  Either you take it at the 10 and burn no time or you try to get it to the 20-30 and burn 4+ seconds.  Depending on your returner and blocking you will most times take the free yards with a full head of steam and go down quick if you don't see an opening (no dancing).

 

It seems most likely that the communication failure referred to here was an "either or" call and not some "he didn't tell him".  Presumably Bass was supposed to touchback with 1 alignment/returner or squib if they trotted out something else.  When Heath or Bass read what was on the field they kick it with the desired technique.  Or the original call was to kick it and McD changed his mind late and nobody told Bass the change in plan.  Someone between the coordinator and kicker obviously screwed up.

[BarleyNY]

1 hour ago, Shaw66 said:

 

Some people here said that they DID huddle up on the sideline.  The problem apparently was that Bass was practicing at the net and wasn't in the huddle.  

I have heard that too but I don’t know how that’s possible.  He wasn’t practicing at the net before the KO, he was kicking the PAT.  It’s not like he hasn’t kicked a PAT then got the following KO call dozens of times. 

[hondo in seattle]

1 hour ago, Gugny said:

 

 

I agree with Dr. D.  That was the single most important play of McDermott's career and the Bills' season.  Goddamn right he should have taken it upon himself - as the LEADER of the team - to ensure everyone was on the same page.

 

Yes - leaders need to rely on their directs to do their jobs.  But there is a thing called, "trust, but verify," which many leaders employ when something is incredibly important.  And McDermott should have employed it.

 

This is a failure on multiple parts. But the biggest fault lies at the feet of Sean McDermott.

 

 

Gugs, I hear you.  And - given what transpired - I can't say you're wrong. 

 

But I led soldiers in war - when lives, not games, were on the line - and still didn't tell every soldier each new change to the plan.  That's too cumbersome.  I informed my subordinate leaders and let them do what they're trained to do.  That system - utilizing the chain of command - worked well for me and many others.  

 

You can blame McD for this if you want, but I can't.  You're the HC and you tell your coordinator to do something and it's more than reasonable to expect him to do it.

[Ned Flanders]

One thing is obviously clear: just like Wide Right and MCM make their way into a thread, 30, 20 years after the fact, "13 Seconds" will also live forever in TBD infamy.

[Shaw66]

9 minutes ago, Ned Flanders said:

One thing is obviously clear: just like Wide Right and MCM make their way into a thread, 30, 20 years after the fact, "13 Seconds" will also live forever in TBD infamy.

Win a couple of Lombardis, and memories will fade.