Brandon Beane: Top priority for offseason - protecting Josh Allen

[starrymessenger]

Getting him more legit weapons is just as important and to a significant extent serves the same purpose. 

[eball]

1 hour ago, ScottLaw said:

Just saying…. Dude was close to useless last season, entering his 4th season on a team desperately in need of offensive line help…. Why do you think he will even make the team? 

 

He’s cheap and there’s no reason he won’t be in camp.  Let’s see what Kromer can do with him.

[Motor26]

13 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Mostly agree but I don't think the situation with Brown is any different than it was with Cody Ford going into 2020.    Brown had some struggles and had back issues as well.   He has great potential but still too much to prove to assume he's going to keep improving.   Ford certainly did not.........he regressed.

 

 

Okay but you give him a shot at right tackle. If he regresses like Ford, then it happens. But they invested a 3rd round pick on him so I would be shocked if he isn’t penciled in as the starting right tackle.

[eball]

The only OL on this roster who should be considered “safe” are Dawkins, Morse, Bates (who will be tendered), Doyle, and Brown.  They are most certainly not intending to “run it back” with this crew.  Brown has potential but is far from a finished product, and Doyle showed enough late in the season (and was only a rookie) so he’ll be back.  Everybody else is “on alert.”

 

Feliciano was never great and got worse.  Williams dropped off precipitously.  Boettger is JAG.  Ford will get his absolute last chance.  I predict at least three of these four will be gone, which means four or five new OL.

 

I am very excited about the return of Beach Chairs.  We may finally see linemen who reach their potential.

 

[BADOLBILZ]

1 hour ago, Motor26 said:

Okay but you give him a shot at right tackle. If he regresses like Ford, then it happens. But they invested a 3rd round pick on him so I would be shocked if he isn’t penciled in as the starting right tackle.

 

Of course he gets a shot to keep the starting job.   The point is that Cody Ford was also penciled in as the starter at RT going into 2020.   The Bills signed Daryl Williams to a $2M one year deal coming off a bad season playing guard for Carolina.........and when Ford failed Williams stepped into the RT job and that was pretty much the end of Ford being considered even an option as swing tackle let alone a starter.    To add insult to injury.......when Williams struggled at RT in 2021......Ford AGAIN got benched in favor of Williams......who was moved to guard and Brown was inserted at RT.   

[GreggTX]

Good thread CSH. Josh has had a terrible fumbling problem even after pulling the ball down and running. This year he was much better though. He can still do a better job of squeezing the ball, but he's been thinking about it more, obviously. Also, fumbles come more readily when you're holding the ball up and focusing your attention downfield. Better blocking means fewer QB hits and fumbles. Now add a run game that can be dominant even in sloppy conditions and playoff games in Orchard Park become very advantageous. Heck, I'm more worried about just getting out of the AFC. The SB will be on a fast field, but if our run game is great, Josh will be even more efective with a few less pass attempts. I like that approach. Pull the safeties up and let Josh go over their heads more.

 

I'd like an upgrade at G and RT. I like Brown a lot, but he's a project and we're in win now mode. In a year or so we could have 3 very good OT's. That's a problem I'd love to see happen. You could trade someone or slide a OT inside. Perhaps we'll acquire someone that can play C or G. I'd love to keep Feliciono as the first IOL off the bench, but at the right price.

Edited February 17, 2022 by GreggTX

[Coach Tuesday]

Cody Ford’s suckitude continues to be the unseen domino from which all kinds of personnel decisions - good and bad - emanate. 
 

2021: “Well at the very least he can hold down the backup swing tackle/guard role, right?”

 

2022: Nope. Time to go shopping!

Edited February 17, 2022 by Coach Tuesday

[harryS]

if the line continues its solid play from the end of the season, then great.  it'd be foolish to count on it, though.  definitely try to get better and build out depth on the OL.

 

20 hours ago, Ethan in Portland said:

As for those that want less QB runs, it doesn't make sense to me. My gut tells me QBs are more likely injured in the pocket than when on a designed run. Allen's injury his rookie year was in the pocket. Guys hitting him in the head or rolling into his legs happens in the pocket. Hand injuries happen on throws usually not runs.

I favor letting Josh run. Its part of his game that makes him MVP caliber. I think he can be MVP just with his arm but I also don't fear him being asked to run the ball by both design and improvisation. 

 

you're only addressing the catastrophic injury aspect of the debate, though, which is just a minor part of it.  most people just don't want Josh to build up the cumulative wear and tear on his body over many years.  it'd be nice if he could age like Brady instead of like Big Ben.

[GunnerBill]

7 hours ago, Buffalo Ballin said:

Agreed with Beane. Look at Andrew Luck. Look at Joe Burrow. I don't want that for us.

 

Tom Brady, Patrick Mahomes, Peyton Manning, Russell Wilson, and Ben Roethlisberger had great protection and that's why their careers are great.

 

It's also a new era for the Buffalo Bills: The "Unleashed" Josh Allen. No more conservative play calling. Let Josh Allen throw for over 5000 yards, 45 touchdowns. It's time now starting next season. We have Stefon Diggs, Gabriel Davis, Knox, and MacKenzie. We have the WR corp to make this happen.

 

The final thing is strengthen the O-line.

 

Roethlisberger actually had a spell in the middle of his career, including his 2nd Superbowl where the oline was the weakness of the team. But they then built a really good line in the early / mid 10s that lasted until about 2/3 years ago when Foster and DeCastro retired and Villanueva left. 

 

Wilson had a good line in his two Superbowl appearances. It has been pretty much a disaster zone since. The Max Unger for Jimmy Graham trade is one of the worst trades in NFL history and was the moment Seattle stopped being a Championship level team. 

6 hours ago, eball said:

 

He’s cheap and there’s no reason he won’t be in camp.  Let’s see what Kromer can do with him.

 

I don't think Cody Ford will be on the 53. He is a $1.5m cap saving if released. 

[GunnerBill]

4 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Of course he gets a shot to keep the starting job.   The point is that Cody Ford was also penciled in as the starter at RT going into 2020.   The Bills signed Daryl Williams to a $2M one year deal coming off a bad season playing guard for Carolina.........and when Ford failed Williams stepped into the RT job and that was pretty much the end of Ford being considered even an option as swing tackle let alone a starter.    To add insult to injury.......when Williams struggled at RT in 2021......Ford AGAIN got benched in favor of Williams......who was moved to guard and Brown was inserted at RT.   

 

Yep. I think Brown played better as a rookie than Ford, but I think the Bills need another legitimate option at tackle. He was decent for a rookie but his pass pro needs to get a lot better for me to say he is definitely the long term answer and add to that Dion's horrible first half of 2021 where he played as poorly as he has at any point since his second year. I am willing to pencil Brown in and willing to give Dawkins the covid benefit of the doubt.... but when there is question marks on both you have to have a legit 3rd option in the room IMO. And if they end up 3 of your best 5, then great, you can work out who plays where later on. But just standing pat with those 2 and Tommy Doyle..... what do you do if Brown doesn't improve or Dion struggles again? 

 

They need to be willing to take a tackle early IMO. I think the top 4 are all likely gone before we get on the clock now though.

[eball]

2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

I don't think Cody Ford will be on the 53. He is a $1.5m cap saving if released. 

 

He’s a total long shot and I’ve said nothing more.  I’m just curious to see what he does with a real coach, because we have seen some glimpses of potential (before last year).

 

[Ethan in Cleveland]

3 hours ago, harryS said:

if the line continues its solid play from the end of the season, then great.  it'd be foolish to count on it, though.  definitely try to get better and build out depth on the OL.

 

 

you're only addressing the catastrophic injury aspect of the debate, though, which is just a minor part of it.  most people just don't want Josh to build up the cumulative wear and tear on his body over many years.  it'd be nice if he could age like Brady instead of like Big Ben.

I get that. I think that he will run less naturally as he continues to get better as a passer.

[Tanoros]

11 hours ago, Buffalo Ballin said:

Agreed with Beane. Look at Andrew Luck. Look at Joe Burrow. I don't want that for us.

 

Tom Brady, Patrick Mahomes, Peyton Manning, Russell Wilson, and Ben Roethlisberger had great protection and that's why their careers are great.

 

It's also a new era for the Buffalo Bills: The "Unleashed" Josh Allen. No more conservative play calling. Let Josh Allen throw for over 5000 yards, 45 touchdowns. It's time now starting next season. We have Stefon Diggs, Gabriel Davis, Knox, and MacKenzie. We have the WR corp to make this happen.

 

The final thing is strengthen the O-line.

I agree with your point, but Russ has a had poor o-line play most of his career. Seattles line has gotten better the last two seasons, primarily because of young drafted players making an impact (there was one late round pick that stepped up). I live in the Seattle area, and much of the offseason talk during the Russ era is ALWAYS offensive line. 
 

One other thing, MacKenzie isn’t a guarantee to come back. He is a FA, and Beane has a lot of tough decisions to make in free agency this year. 
 

In my opinion, if we get a line that can consistently open holes in the run game, and also give Josh enough time in the pocket, Josh will light up the league. Not only can he do it all, but he is really starting to show he can attack any type of defensive game plan. What I’m trying to say is, Josh will be unleashed, as long as the line gives him the opportunity. Otherwise, he’ll be kinda of like the last two seasons, up and down until/if the line/scheme settle in and adapt to cover their weakness. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

13 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

Mostly agree but I don't think the situation with Brown is any different than it was with Cody Ford going into 2020.    Brown had some struggles and had back issues as well.   He has great potential but still too much to prove to assume he's going to keep improving.   Ford certainly did not.........he regressed.

 

I agree that Brown has not yet shown he's The Man at RT, and that he had some critical breakdowns in protection and of course missed 4 games between Covid and his back injury, giving us a limited sample set.  But at other times, his play looked great.

 

That said, I do think there are significant differences between 2019 Ford and Brown.  Ford never earned the starting RT spot with his play in 2019.  He platooned with older journeyman Ty Nsecke and his snap count was actually falling until Week 10 when Nsecke went out with injury and Ford took over full time.  And IIRC after Ford took over, the general verdict was "Not Good Enough, Unless he takes a Step".  The Bills voted on that probability when they went out in FA and signed Williams.

 

Whereas with Brown, his main issue is consistency - at times he looks like he's all we could hope for, then he'll make a mistake and whiff.  I don't remember that viewpoint on Cody Ford, his most lenient evaluators were "might take a step, many guys do in their second year". 

 

So I see more cause to believe that Brown can take that step and become more consistent.   The back injury is, of course, a big concern for a young OT since back injuries ultimately derail many a promising or even HOF OL career.

 

What I feel this year on OL proved, is that the Bills have yet to establish any consistency from anyone on OL Y2Y. 

 

Dawkins put his early performance issues onto Covid (McDermott said no) but back at OTAs, the general fan reaction was "Wow, did the Bills ask D Dawk to come into camp like that? If not 👀👀" due to his apparent large weight gain o' flab.  And one POV would be, it wasn't until he actually saw someone else starting in his spot that it seemed to flip a switch and he came out on 🔥 and stayed lit. 

 

Williams had a great season in 2020 and as you pointed out elsewhere, got paid and did not maintain that level of performance.  Feliciano was expected to get paid and improve from a 2020 that was hampered by surgical recovery in the offseason then a torn pec at the start of training camp, but instead he sucked.

 

Maybe the problem was in part, coaching and a change there will help.  I had not realized how minimal Bobby Johnson's experience was as an actual OL coach (no previous OL coach gigs and 5 years of OL assistant coaching with 3 teams, spread out over a 27 year coaching career).  I dunno. 

 

 

4 hours ago, Ethan in Portland said:

I get that. I think that he will run less naturally as he continues to get better as a passer.

 

Josh will run less if we stop dialing up designed run plays for him because he's by far our best RB and we need to sell RB misdirection to make runs work.  What TF were we doing at the end of the season, 4-6 designed runs a game for Josh?

[LABILLBACKER]

On 2/16/2022 at 4:20 AM, eball said:

They already went a long way towards protecting Josh when they brought Beach Chairs back into the mix.

.....and dusted off Ryan Bates from the bench. I would have no problem drafting Linderbaum @ 25 or throwing some money at Scherff? 

[Magox]

Judging by Beane's comments, it looks like he wants to try to upgrade some components of the O line.   I suppose I will never be opposed to that but I thought the offensive line in it's latest iteration of it was pretty good.   I'd rather have them look to add more speed and dynamism with the skilled positions but if they decide to improve upon the O line, I'd be just fine with that.

[John from Riverside]

I am a big fan of Bates.....calling for him to start all season after Mongo started falling on his face and then got hurt.

 

but lets be real here.....one of the best freinds of a QB is the ability to just hunker down and matriculate the ball down the field in the running game wearing out the defense and we couldnt do that till about the bucs game which was at the end of the season.

 

We shouldnt have to decide between good pass protection and good run blocking......a exceptional line can do both and take the heart out of a defense.....fix that

[Ethan in Cleveland]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I agree that Brown has not yet shown he's The Man at RT, and that he had some critical breakdowns in protection and of course missed 4 games between Covid and his back injury, giving us a limited sample set.  But at other times, his play looked great.

 

That said, I do think there are significant differences between 2019 Ford and Brown.  Ford never earned the starting RT spot with his play in 2019.  He platooned with older journeyman Ty Nsecke and his snap count was actually falling until Week 10 when Nsecke went out with injury and Ford took over full time.  And IIRC after Ford took over, the general verdict was "Not Good Enough, Unless he takes a Step".  The Bills voted on that probability when they went out in FA and signed Williams.

 

Whereas with Brown, his main issue is consistency - at times he looks like he's all we could hope for, then he'll make a mistake and whiff.  I don't remember that viewpoint on Cody Ford, his most lenient evaluators were "might take a step, many guys do in their second year". 

 

So I see more cause to believe that Brown can take that step and become more consistent.   The back injury is, of course, a big concern for a young OT since back injuries ultimately derail many a promising or even HOF OL career.

 

What I feel this year on OL proved, is that the Bills have yet to establish any consistency from anyone on OL Y2Y. 

 

Dawkins put his early performance issues onto Covid (McDermott said no) but back at OTAs, the general fan reaction was "Wow, did the Bills ask D Dawk to come into camp like that? If not 👀👀" due to his apparent large weight gain o' flab.  And one POV would be, it wasn't until he actually saw someone else starting in his spot that it seemed to flip a switch and he came out on 🔥 and stayed lit. 

 

Williams had a great season in 2020 and as you pointed out elsewhere, got paid and did not maintain that level of performance.  Feliciano was expected to get paid and improve from a 2020 that was hampered by surgical recovery in the offseason then a torn pec at the start of training camp, but instead he sucked.

 

Maybe the problem was in part, coaching and a change there will help.  I had not realized how minimal Bobby Johnson's experience was as an actual OL coach (no previous OL coach gigs and 5 years of OL assistant coaching with 3 teams, spread out over a 27 year coaching career).  I dunno. 

 

 

 

Josh will run less if we stop dialing up designed run plays for him because he's by far our best RB and we need to sell RB misdirection to make runs work.  What TF were we doing at the end of the season, 4-6 designed runs a game for Josh?

WTF were we doing, Winning I think

[machine gun kelly]

RD 1 CB

RD 2 Guard

 

Free Agency maybe a RB.  I don’t think we have the $ for Cordell’s Patterson, but he would be a good add.

 

BPA after and I’m guessing regardless of when Beane said, they are probably moving on from Beasely, Sanders, Star, D. Williams, and Feliciano.  

[Hapless Bills Fan]

35 minutes ago, Ethan in Portland said:

WTF were we doing, Winning I think

 

Genius. 

 

The point being, if Josh Allen is the Bills Best RB and we need 4-6 designed runs or RPOs where he's an option to win, the problem is not what you previously stated:

"I think that he will run less naturally as he continues to get better as a passer."

Thus implying that the reason for all Josh's running is some gaps he still has as a passing QB

 

If the Bills are using Josh as a RB on designed runs, Josh "continuing to get better as a passer" won't change this.  The problem is the personnel (OL and RB) and/or blocking scheme and play calling that don't enable a successful run game with the OL and RB we have.