Beane on what insider info Schoen takes with him, impact of Offensive coaching changes: Q&A Athletic article by Tim Graham

[Hapless Bills Fan]

https://theathletic.com/3122098/2022/02/10/joe-schoen-making-off-with-bills-secrets-a-sean-mcdermott-brian-daboll-rift-the-satchel-is-back/

 

Quote

Beane and Schoen are close friends. There were no hard feelings, although Beane concedes Schoen carries some Bills insight with him to the Meadowlands.

 

“The way I look at it,” Beane said, “it’s like Joe has two scouting groups working for him.

 

“The most important thing that he’s walking away with, and there’s nothing you can do about it, are the evaluations from our college area scouts. The pro reports aren’t as important. The college reports are probably the ones where he’s going to know where three or four scouts have graded a player — one might have him in the third round, and another might have him in the fifth round — through the fall.

 

“He’ll have that intel, but that’s not really going to help him. There’s a lot of things that move around between now and the draft.”

Schoen has knowledge of the preliminary draft board Buffalo assembled in December, but that order will change significantly between now and when it’s finalized a week before the draft.

 

Beane added that Schoen was not involved in the Bills’ recent free-agency meeting and isn’t privy to their evaluations from college all-star games or those to come at the NFL Scouting Combine and pro days.

 

Beane jokes about reciprocity:

Quote

Beane half-jokingly came up with a way to even the score.

“You don’t love it,” Beane said. “You wish you could say, ‘OK, you have our stuff. Send us your reports.’ But them sending me reports wouldn’t help as much because I don’t know their scouts as well and how they grade. It probably would screw me up more than anything.”

 

Questions and Tim Graham Response On Dorsey and other coaching changes:

Quote

Any concern with Ken Dorsey’s lack of play-calling experience? What do we know of his role or impact as passing game coordinator to possibly translate at the next level? — Christopher B.

 

Dorsey’s precise role in Daboll’s offensive strategy is unknown outside of the Bills. I can confidently say Dorsey did not call plays in any substantive way. Maybe here or there or in a preseason setting.

 

Quote

What I’m fascinated to see is how the aggregate of change around Josh Allen impacts the superstar quarterback. Allen got his wish with Dorsey’s elevation to offensive coordinator, but all the others in his position room likely will be different.

 

Assistant quarterbacks coach Shea Tierney left with Daboll, as did practice squad quarterback Davis Webb. Allen’s backup, Mitchell Trubisky, is expected to move on unless no market exists for his services.

 

Allen adored them all for helping him prepare. Tierney ran the scout-team defense at Bills practice, giving Allen the looks he needed to attack each week. Webb was considered a coach in shoulder pads.

 

The changeover won’t be seamless.

 

Insight on several other topics, including the hypothesized Daboll-McDermott rift and on Aaron Kromer

[Watkins90]

Pretty interesting that Beane was that forth coming. 

[Don Otreply]

Its neat to see what Beane has to say on this, but It’s all SOP, happens every time an assistant GM/ coach changes teams, nothing to be overly concerned with.

 

Go Bills!!!

[DrDawkinstein]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

https://theathletic.com/3122098/2022/02/10/joe-schoen-making-off-with-bills-secrets-a-sean-mcdermott-brian-daboll-rift-the-satchel-is-back/

 

 

Beane jokes about reciprocity:

 

On Dorsey and other coaching changes:

 

 

Insight on several other topics, including the hypothesized Daboll-McDermott rift and on Aaron Kromer

 

It should be noted that the last 2 quotes posted about Dorsey and Tierney are NOT Beane's comments. He was only asked about the first question regarding Schoen leaving.

 

The rest, regarding Dorsey's playcalling and the change to the QB room, is all Timmy G.

 

 

[Utah John]

About Josh's pushing for Dorsey to move up to OC, I think this is likely because he thinks Dorsey will follow the path Daboll laid down.  Josh likes that path, naturally, and would not welcome some outsider OC's ideas being installed to replace what works so well for him. 

 

But, three things.  First, Dorsey hasn't called plays before.  Sure Dorsey understands Daboll's system, but he hasn't had the pressure of making calls in critical moments during games.  Let's hope he's up to the challenge. Second, to be successful, an OC has to be innovative, constantly coming up with new schemes because anything they've done before will be on tape, and the opposition has a chance to try to stop it.  Can Dorsey innovate?  Can he come up with new ideas?  Actually in this case Dorsey could very well be better, since Daboll's new idea well might have run dry by now.  We'll have to see whether this is a positive or negative area.  Finally, while a new OC could very well disrupt what the Bills' offense is used to doing, it might be an outsider brings strength to the running game that Daboll never really exploited.  We'll never know about this change since it didn't happen.  

 

Hiring Dorsey was a "it ain't broke so don't fix it" kind of move.  It could work out and of course I hope it does.  But we'll never know what we might have had with a new guy.  Of course we do have a new guy as the QB coach, and that new guy was an OC last year, so if Dorsey's not up to the job, maybe a change happens anyway.  I hope that doesn't occur, and that the offense continues to be as lethal as it was in the two playoff games. 

 

The biggest question for the offense next year actually isn't the coaches, it's the players.  The only QB on the roster now is Allen.  How well and how quickly can new guys come in and fit into backup roles?  With Allen's style of playing the backup QB is very important.  Also how many WRs can we count on for next year?  Diggs and Davis.  Sanders was looking pretty much over the hill late last year.  Beasley has lost a step and is expensive.  McKenzie apparently will never forgive McDermott for benching him, and will be looking to leave.  The only legitimate TE we have is Knox.  At RB, Singletary has come into his own while Moss has faded.  On the line, Ford and Feliciano have shown they aren't good enough, Bates is a FA, and Williams is way overpaid for a guard.  Overall, it's looking like an offense with good players at most of the positions but with no reliable depth at all.  The Bills have been drafting defense for so long and have not focused on building the offense's personnel, either depth or new starters.  The only true need on defense is at CB -- it's time to bring the offense back up.  Otherwise, if we get a critical injury -- and of course we will -- there won't be any material for Dorsey to work with anyway.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, DrDawkinstein said:

It should be noted that the last 2 quotes posted about Dorsey and Tierney are NOT Beane's comments. He was only asked about the first question regarding Schoen leaving.

 

The rest, regarding Dorsey's playcalling and the change to the QB room, is all Timmy G.

 

I thought that was clear enough from the Q&A with Tim Graham title, but I edited to make that clearer.

[BuffaloBillyG]

I thought it was speculated that McDermott's 1st draft here we moved up to draft someone that the Panthers were wanting. Him having some knowledge about their plans may or may not have contributed. 

 

Could be wrong but I believe it was the Zay Jones pick? Anyway, it would show that even though another GM my have an idea of what you may want...it doesn't always mean the knowledge will help out.

 

 

EDIT: It may have been the Dawkins pick now that I think about it.

Edited February 11, 2022 by BuffaloBillyG

[Doc]

If the Giants were picking close to where the Bills are, it would be more of an issue.  However they pick 5th and 7th in the first round and then 3-5 in the rounds thereafter, whereas the Bills pick 25th.  Not a real concern.

Edited February 11, 2022 by Doc

[MiltonWaddams]

34 minutes ago, Utah John said:

About Josh's pushing for Dorsey to move up to OC, I think this is likely because he thinks Dorsey will follow the path Daboll laid down.  Josh likes that path, naturally, and would not welcome some outsider OC's ideas being installed to replace what works so well for him. 

 

But, three things.  First, Dorsey hasn't called plays before.  Sure Dorsey understands Daboll's system, but he hasn't had the pressure of making calls in critical moments during games.  Let's hope he's up to the challenge. Second, to be successful, an OC has to be innovative, constantly coming up with new schemes because anything they've done before will be on tape, and the opposition has a chance to try to stop it.  Can Dorsey innovate?  Can he come up with new ideas?  Actually in this case Dorsey could very well be better, since Daboll's new idea well might have run dry by now.  We'll have to see whether this is a positive or negative area.  Finally, while a new OC could very well disrupt what the Bills' offense is used to doing, it might be an outsider brings strength to the running game that Daboll never really exploited.  We'll never know about this change since it didn't happen.  

 

Hiring Dorsey was a "it ain't broke so don't fix it" kind of move.  It could work out and of course I hope it does.  But we'll never know what we might have had with a new guy.  Of course we do have a new guy as the QB coach, and that new guy was an OC last year, so if Dorsey's not up to the job, maybe a change happens anyway.  I hope that doesn't occur, and that the offense continues to be as lethal as it was in the two playoff games. 

 

The biggest question for the offense next year actually isn't the coaches, it's the players.  The only QB on the roster now is Allen.  How well and how quickly can new guys come in and fit into backup roles?  With Allen's style of playing the backup QB is very important.  Also how many WRs can we count on for next year?  Diggs and Davis.  Sanders was looking pretty much over the hill late last year.  Beasley has lost a step and is expensive.  McKenzie apparently will never forgive McDermott for benching him, and will be looking to leave.  The only legitimate TE we have is Knox.  At RB, Singletary has come into his own while Moss has faded.  On the line, Ford and Feliciano have shown they aren't good enough, Bates is a FA, and Williams is way overpaid for a guard.  Overall, it's looking like an offense with good players at most of the positions but with no reliable depth at all.  The Bills have been drafting defense for so long and have not focused on building the offense's personnel, either depth or new starters.  The only true need on defense is at CB -- it's time to bring the offense back up.  Otherwise, if we get a critical injury -- and of course we will -- there won't be any material for Dorsey to work with anyway.

I appreciate the amount of thought and effort that went into your post, but why do you have to be such a damn realist? You’re totally harshing my mellow, man…

6 minutes ago, BuffaloBillyG said:

I thought it was speculated that McDermott's 1st draft here we moved up to draft someone that the Panthers were wanting. Him having some knowledge about their plans may or may not have contributed. 

 

Could be wrong but I believe it was the Zay Jones pick? Anyway, it would show that even though another GM my have an idea of what you may want...it doesn't always mean the knowledge will help out.

 

 

EDIT: It may have been the Dawkins pick now that I think about it.

Tre White.

[White Linen]

I would think us and the Giants drafting on opposite ends of the draft will cause quite a gap in what players each club would be interested in.  They would have to reach to get our guy.

37 minutes ago, Doc said:

If the Giants were picking close to where the Bills are, it would be more of an issue.  However they pick 5th and 7th in the first round and then 3-5 in the rounds thereafter, whereas the Bills pick 25th.  Not a real concern.

 

Sorry, didn't realize you said the same exact thing I just posted.  Cheers and agree. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

14 minutes ago, Utah John said:

About Josh's pushing for Dorsey to move up to OC, I think this is likely because he thinks Dorsey will follow the path Daboll laid down.  Josh likes that path, naturally, and would not welcome some outsider OC's ideas being installed to replace what works so well for him. 

 

But, three things.  First, Dorsey hasn't called plays before.  Sure Dorsey understands Daboll's system, but he hasn't had the pressure of making calls in critical moments during games.  Let's hope he's up to the challenge. Second, to be successful, an OC has to be innovative, constantly coming up with new schemes because anything they've done before will be on tape, and the opposition has a chance to try to stop it.  Can Dorsey innovate?  Can he come up with new ideas?  Actually in this case Dorsey could very well be better, since Daboll's new idea well might have run dry by now.  We'll have to see whether this is a positive or negative area.  Finally, while a new OC could very well disrupt what the Bills' offense is used to doing, it might be an outsider brings strength to the running game that Daboll never really exploited.  We'll never know about this change since it didn't happen.  

 

Hiring Dorsey was a "it ain't broke so don't fix it" kind of move.  It could work out and of course I hope it does.  But we'll never know what we might have had with a new guy.  Of course we do have a new guy as the QB coach, and that new guy was an OC last year, so if Dorsey's not up to the job, maybe a change happens anyway.  I hope that doesn't occur, and that the offense continues to be as lethal as it was in the two playoff games. 

 

The biggest question for the offense next year actually isn't the coaches, it's the players.  The only QB on the roster now is Allen.  How well and how quickly can new guys come in and fit into backup roles?  With Allen's style of playing the backup QB is very important.  Also how many WRs can we count on for next year?  Diggs and Davis.  Sanders was looking pretty much over the hill late last year.  Beasley has lost a step and is expensive.  McKenzie apparently will never forgive McDermott for benching him, and will be looking to leave.  The only legitimate TE we have is Knox.  At RB, Singletary has come into his own while Moss has faded.  On the line, Ford and Feliciano have shown they aren't good enough, Bates is a FA, and Williams is way overpaid for a guard.  Overall, it's looking like an offense with good players at most of the positions but with no reliable depth at all.  The Bills have been drafting defense for so long and have not focused on building the offense's personnel, either depth or new starters.  The only true need on defense is at CB -- it's time to bring the offense back up.  Otherwise, if we get a critical injury -- and of course we will -- there won't be any material for Dorsey to work with anyway.

 

So you might be interested in a Cover1 Film Room piece where they comment on what Dorsey, Brady, and Kromer bring to the offense

 

You have a point about Dorsey himself being a "ain't broke don't fix it", but I think bringing in Brady and bringing in Kromer were both efforts to introduce fresh thinking and new elements.

 

The unknown there, will be do they meld and work seamlessly to craft an offense?

 

I don't think McKenzie has some kind of eternal grudge against McDermott for benching him.  I think he's frustrated because he wants a bigger role in the offense - he wants to show he can play from the slot and handle 60-70% of the snaps.  Beasley is still under contract, and Daboll (not McDermott) repeatedly made it clear that he rated "Beasley with sore ribs who goes down immediately" and "Beasley with a broken leg" >> McKenzie.

 

I also think he doesn't really want to be used too much on running plays from the backfield as he was at the end of the season.  He's small and relatively light (although good build for football, solid and muscular) and that subjects him to a lot of punishment - but honestly, maybe not that much more than returning punts, which was a role he wanted?

 

It's not a question of forgiveness, it's a matter of whether another offense will give him opportunities he wants and hasn't gotten in Buffalo, which is sound career sense in the "Not For Long".

 

Whether Buffalo is correct to see him as "Not Ready for Primetime as a Full-Time Slot", is another issue.

 

[298Woody]

My biggest criticism of Dabol was his lack of use of McKenzie. They didn't sign him until late for peanuts. Look at the second NE game and ask why he doesn't get more snaps when we want a Tyreek Hill type player.

[Saxum]

3 hours ago, BuffaloBillyG said:

I thought it was speculated that McDermott's 1st draft here we moved up to draft someone that the Panthers were wanting. Him having some knowledge about their plans may or may not have contributed. 

 

Could be wrong but I believe it was the Zay Jones pick? Anyway, it would show that even though another GM my have an idea of what you may want...it doesn't always mean the knowledge will help out.

 

 

EDIT: It may have been the Dawkins pick now that I think about it.

 

Zay Jones "inside info" came from his position coach at Eastern Carolina whom McDermott made his WR coach.

According to him "Zay Jones was the most prepared for NFL WR".

That coach got cut following year.

[HardyBoy]

3 hours ago, Doc said:

If the Giants were picking close to where the Bills are, it would be more of an issue.  However they pick 5th and 7th in the first round and then 3-5 in the rounds thereafter, whereas the Bills pick 25th.  Not a real concern.

 

3 hours ago, White Linen said:

I would think us and the Giants drafting on opposite ends of the draft will cause quite a gap in what players each club would be interested in.  They would have to reach to get our guy.

 

Sorry, didn't realize you said the same exact thing I just posted.  Cheers and agree. 

 

They could trade up to pick 24 from the their second round pick...

[Hapless Bills Fan]

4 hours ago, BuffaloBillyG said:

I thought it was speculated that McDermott's 1st draft here we moved up to draft someone that the Panthers were wanting. Him having some knowledge about their plans may or may not have contributed. 

 

Could be wrong but I believe it was the Zay Jones pick? Anyway, it would show that even though another GM my have an idea of what you may want...it doesn't always mean the knowledge will help out.

 

 

EDIT: It may have been the Dawkins pick now that I think about it.

 

It was Dawkins

 

https://www.charlotteobserver.com/sports/nfl/carolina-panthers/nfl-blog/article147558349.html

[78thealltimegreat]

All these personnel guys have inside info and know the secret of success when they hit on a quarterback…usually you don’t see people associated with the Jets or Jaguars taking other jobs taking their trade secrets with them 

[ganesh]

5 hours ago, Doc said:

If the Giants were picking close to where the Bills are, it would be more of an issue.  However they pick 5th and 7th in the first round and then 3-5 in the rounds thereafter, whereas the Bills pick 25th.  Not a real concern.

The Bills could be worried that the Giants could pick a player 10 picks LATER if they didn't pick them at their slot 🙂

[White Linen]

2 hours ago, HardyBoy said:

 

 

They could trade up to pick 24 from the their second round pick...

 

That's reaching.

[Florida Bills Fanatic]

There are also independent scouting services that sell their evaluations to various customers, including NFL teams.  I believe teams use these sources to sense check some of their own internal player evaluations and to identify players that they may not have acquired scouting information about.  With the availability of this information, it becomes increasingly harder for players to go under the radar.  Teams also study and do their own draft simulations based on the needs of the other teams, assessments of college players, and educated guesses of who will be available when they draft.  With so much information readily available, I'm not surprised that Beane doesn't seem overly concerned.  As one of the other posters correctly pointed out, the Giants are picking in the early part of each round and the Bills are generally 20 picks after that.  Either team trading up or back could create a potential clash of interests but it seems remote.

[YoloinOhio]

2 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

It was Dawkins

 

https://www.charlotteobserver.com/sports/nfl/carolina-panthers/nfl-blog/article147558349.html

Interestingly I believe the panthers had Tre white, Dawkins and zay Jones all in for predraft  visits and the bills didn’t.