Kyler Murray unfollows Cardinals on social media

[DabillsDaBillsDaBills]

16 hours ago, CincyBillsFan said:

I think Murray's terrible performance in his first playoff game at the end of his 3rd season is cause for concern.  I don't see anyone paying him over 40 million per year in a long term contract (as opposed to year-to-year as a franchise QB) until they get a better read on whether he can up his game in the playoffs.

 

The other issue with Murray is that looking at his stats he has not improved over his first three seasons.  His TD pass numbers, TD/INT ratio and passing yards appear to have plateaued.  He has not thrown for 30 TD's yet nor has he thrown for over 4,000 yards.  From a stat & eye test Murray is similar to Dak Prescott but 6 inches shorter.

 

 

 

 

 

Murray has shown year over year improvement in completion % and YPA even if total yards and TD have been relatively flat. This is reflected in his QB Rating: 

 

2019  - 87.4

2020 - 94.3

2021 - 100.6

 

We can argue over how important QBR is as a stat, but there's little doubt he's improved as a QB. 

 

It's a little ironic you're comparing him to Dak Prescott when Dak has a 40mm AAV contract. If you think Murray isn't worth 40mm+ what do you think he is worth? 35mm? 30mm? 

 

Let's compare that to MLB 

 

There's a total of 8 players (excluding pitchers) making 30+mm AAV. Only 2 of those guys are making 35mm+ with the most lucrative MLB contract coming in at 35.6mm.

 

From a $$ standpoint it would be ludicrous for Murray to switch sports at this time. He would have to be one of the very best players in MLB to even approach what an average QB makes in the NFL (and Murray has already shown to be above average). 

 

 

[CincyBillsFan]

7 hours ago, DabillsDaBillsDaBills said:

 

Murray has shown year over year improvement in completion % and YPA even if total yards and TD have been relatively flat. This is reflected in his QB Rating: 

 

2019  - 87.4

2020 - 94.3

2021 - 100.6

 

We can argue over how important QBR is as a stat, but there's little doubt he's improved as a QB. 

 

It's a little ironic you're comparing him to Dak Prescott when Dak has a 40mm AAV contract. If you think Murray isn't worth 40mm+ what do you think he is worth? 35mm? 30mm? 

 

Let's compare that to MLB 

 

There's a total of 8 players (excluding pitchers) making 30+mm AAV. Only 2 of those guys are making 35mm+ with the most lucrative MLB contract coming in at 35.6mm.

 

From a $$ standpoint it would be ludicrous for Murray to switch sports at this time. He would have to be one of the very best players in MLB to even approach what an average QB makes in the NFL (and Murray has already shown to be above average). 

 

 

Sure his QB ratings have gone up but no where near as much as Allen's did through his first 3 seasons:

 

2018 = 67.9

2019 = 85.3

2020 = 107.2

 

IMO Murray isn't throwing the ball all that much better now then he was throwing it his rookie year.

 

As for the Cowboys paying Dak 40 million per year? They're going to feel more and more like the Vikings do with Cousins over the next couple of seasons.  So what would I pay Murray if I owned Arizona? Somewhere between 25 - 30 million dollars per year.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[CincyBillsFan]

7 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I was with your previous post. Murray does strike me more as 2nd tier Quarterback in the Dak Prescott, Lamar Jackson mold than a real top tier guy who could break into the elite. 

 

But then you said the Cardinals would be better with Jimmy G who is very much a tier 3 guy. 

 

I would also say that I don't often rate QBs by their first playoff trip. That often goes sideways and doesn't mean a guy is bad. 

We'll have to agree to disagree on Jimmy G.  IMO he's definitely a tier 2 level QB. Sure he's not as flashy as Murray but his playoff success and won/lost record should not be downplayed.

 

I get that we don't want to rate a QB solely based on their first playoff trip but my goodness Murray's performance was awful.  He pretty much single handily lost that game.  And given that this came at the end of three full seasons was a shock and I believe does indicate a bigger problem.

 

 

 

 

[CincyBillsFan]

7 hours ago, BuffaloBillyG said:

Let me play Devil's Advocate here for a second.

 

This year Murray had:

4300 yards and 29 TDs while missing 3 games.

 

Last year:

4790 yards and 37 TDs

 

Rookie year:

4266 yards and 24 TDs

 

Allen's first 3 years he had:

2020- 4965 yards and 45 TDs

2019- 3599 yards and 29 TDs

2018- 2704 yards and 18 TDs (12 games)

 

On these boards when trying to prove a point about Allen we include his rushing totals into an "all purpose" context quite frequently. Same can be done Murray.

 

His 1 playoff game was a disaster. However, to back and watch Josh in the 2nd half of his 1st playoff game against the Texans. 

 

Not saying Murray is going to follow the same path and has the same room to grow as Allen, however statistically speaking they are in the same ballpark through similar points of their career.

Allen's trajectory was almost straight up through his first three seasons. At best Murray has seen a very shallow rise in his offensive production through the same period of time.

 

And there is no way you can compare Murray's disaster of a first playoff game to Allen's first game.  Allen's first playoff game was after his 2nd season while Murray's was after his 3rd.  Sure Allen had a couple of bad series but otherwise played very well.  In fact Allen led the Bills on a late 4th quarter drive that put them into FG range and sent the game into OT.  Allen also played well in OT in that game. Murray pretty much singly handily cost Arizona their playoff game with one of the worst performances from start to finish then I have ever seen in a playoff game.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[GunnerBill]

15 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

We'll have to agree to disagree on Jimmy G.  IMO he's definitely a tier 2 level QB. Sure he's not as flashy as Murray but his playoff success and won/lost record should not be downplayed.

 

 

How many playoff games have been won because of him? He averages 160 passing yards per game in the playoffs. No way is he tier 2. Just absolutely no ***** way. He can't make the throws. He is a tier 3 Quarterback. Nothing to do with being flashy. He can't make the throws. He makes zero anticipation throws and very few tight window throws. He is a slightly stronger armed Tua. 

Edited February 9, 2022 by GunnerBill

[BuffaloBillyG]

20 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

Allen's trajectory was almost straight up through his first three seasons. At best Murray has seen a very shallow rise in his offensive production through the same period of time.

 

And there is no way you can compare Murray's disaster of a first playoff game to Allen's first game.  Allen's first playoff game was after his 2nd season while Murray's was after his 3rd.  Sure Allen had a couple of bad series but otherwise played very well.  In fact Allen led the Bills on a late 4th quarter drive that put them into FG range and sent the game into OT.  Allen also played well in OT in that game. Murray pretty much singly handily cost Arizona their playoff game with one of the worst performances from start to finish then I have ever seen in a playoff game.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Super. Feel better now? Terrific.

 

Murray had a bad first playoff game. Happens a LOT with great QBs.

 

There is zero debate here to be had, though. Murray started with a higher floor than Allen and has performed at MINIMUM at the same level statistically speaking. 

 

That's not saying he's better, worse or the same as Allen. Just that they have been productive at the same statistic level. Allen has absolutely hit higher highs...however (AGAIN STATISTICALLY SPEAKING) he has also hit MUCH lower lows. Again, there is nothing at all even debatable there. 

[FLFan]

7 hours ago, DabillsDaBillsDaBills said:

 

Murray has shown year over year improvement in completion % and YPA even if total yards and TD have been relatively flat. This is reflected in his QB Rating: 

 

2019  - 87.4

2020 - 94.3

2021 - 100.6

 

We can argue over how important QBR is as a stat, but there's little doubt he's improved as a QB. 

 

It's a little ironic you're comparing him to Dak Prescott when Dak has a 40mm AAV contract. If you think Murray isn't worth 40mm+ what do you think he is worth? 35mm? 30mm? 

 

Let's compare that to MLB 

 

There's a total of 8 players (excluding pitchers) making 30+mm AAV. Only 2 of those guys are making 35mm+ with the most lucrative MLB contract coming in at 35.6mm.

 

From a $$ standpoint it would be ludicrous for Murray to switch sports at this time. He would have to be one of the very best players in MLB to even approach what an average QB makes in the NFL (and Murray has already shown to be above average). 

 

 

I would argue Dak is not worth that contract either.  It does not mean Murray will not get it - Dak did, and Lamar probably will  - but paying any of these guys as elite QBs is problematic.  Murray is not elite.  Murray is a poor leader, and while an exciting player, has a very limited skill set.  If AZ ties their franchise to him (and by extension their goofy coach) I think they will be sorry.  They should at least get used to disappointing season ends, just like Dallas.

[CincyBillsFan]

2 hours ago, BuffaloBillyG said:

Super. Feel better now? Terrific.

 

Murray had a bad first playoff game. Happens a LOT with great QBs.

 

There is zero debate here to be had, though. Murray started with a higher floor than Allen and has performed at MINIMUM at the same level statistically speaking. 

 

That's not saying he's better, worse or the same as Allen. Just that they have been productive at the same statistic level. Allen has absolutely hit higher highs...however (AGAIN STATISTICALLY SPEAKING) he has also hit MUCH lower lows. Again, there is nothing at all even debatable there. 

You're right that there is no debate that by his 3rd season Allen was clearly performing better then Murray at the end of his 3rd season. 

 

And while a lot of QB's struggle in their first playoff game Murray melted down in way that rarely happens.

[BuffaloBillyG]

17 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

You're right that there is no debate that by his 3rd season Allen was clearly performing better then Murray at the end of his 3rd season. 

 

And while a lot of QB's struggle in their first playoff game Murray melted down in way that rarely happens.

You made 2 statements. Both incredibly incorrect. I have provided the stats that were in question upthread. Can you provide an intellectual counter argument backed by the statistics (which was the diacussion) or are you just yammering?

[CincyBillsFan]

13 hours ago, BuffaloBillyG said:

You made 2 statements. Both incredibly incorrect. I have provided the stats that were in question upthread. Can you provide an intellectual counter argument backed by the statistics (which was the diacussion) or are you just yammering?

I disagree with your conclusion that the stats (including playoffs) show that Allen & Murray were equal after their 3rd seasons. And the gap is even wider if you include Allen's 4th year stats.  Is that intellectual enough for you?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[BuffaloBillyG]

6 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

I disagree with your conclusion that the stats (including playoffs) show that Allen & Murray were equal after their 3rd seasons. And the gap is even wider if you include Allen's 4th year stats.  Is that intellectual enough for you?

 

 

 

 

 

 

No. It's not even close.

 

Your big conclusion is adding Allen's 4th year widens the gap. No ****? Another year helps when adding stats up? Who knew?

 

The entire discussion was the 1st 3 years of their career. You keep attempting to change that. Either you can't even comprehend what the discussion is or you cannot emotionally handle that there are other QBs that have played on the same level as Josh Allen STATISTICALLY through their 1st 3 years. 

 

So, in retrospect I asked if you were able to supply a statistic based counter argument or were just yammering. Yammering it is. 

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

30 minutes ago, BuffaloBillyG said:

...or were just yammering. Yammering it is. 

I thought this  ⬇️ was 'yammering'!

Edited February 10, 2022 by Ridgewaycynic2013

[Malazan]

17 hours ago, CincyBillsFan said:

Allen's trajectory was almost straight up through his first three seasons. At best Murray has seen a very shallow rise in his offensive production through the same period of time.

 

And there is no way you can compare Murray's disaster of a first playoff game to Allen's first game.  Allen's first playoff game was after his 2nd season while Murray's was after his 3rd.  Sure Allen had a couple of bad series but otherwise played very well.  In fact Allen led the Bills on a late 4th quarter drive that put them into FG range and sent the game into OT.  Allen also played well in OT in that game. Murray pretty much singly handily cost Arizona their playoff game with one of the worst performances from start to finish then I have ever seen in a playoff game.

 

I don't think Murray is going to be one of the guys in the top 10 of QBs year after year and I wouldn't want him as the leader of my team. 

 

However, Allen is a Unicorn. There's few players to have that sort of trajectory.  It's like when people start in with the 'Tom Brady was a 6th round pick" stuff. Pointless comparison. 

Edited February 10, 2022 by Malazan

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

16 minutes ago, Malazan said:

It's like when people start in with the 'Tom Brady was a 6th round pick" stuff. Pointless comparison. 

True, but you have to consider 'pre contract' or 'post contract'.  And which  contract.

[Albany,n.y.]

15 hours ago, BuffaloBillyG said:

You made 2 statements. Both incredibly incorrect. I have provided the stats that were in question upthread. Can you provide an intellectual counter argument backed by the statistics (which was the diacussion) or are you just yammering?

Stats are for losers, especially QB stats. Always have been, always will.  That's why teams spend hours looking at film rather than a few minutes looking at stats.  

1 hour ago, BuffaloBillyG said:

No. It's not even close.

 

Your big conclusion is adding Allen's 4th year widens the gap. No ****? Another year helps when adding stats up? Who knew?

 

The entire discussion was the 1st 3 years of their career. You keep attempting to change that. Either you can't even comprehend what the discussion is or you cannot emotionally handle that there are other QBs that have played on the same level as Josh Allen STATISTICALLY through their 1st 3 years. 

 

So, in retrospect I asked if you were able to supply a statistic based counter argument or were just yammering. Yammering it is. 

I'll repeat: Stats are for losers, especially QB stats. Always have been, always will.  That's why teams spend hours looking at film rather than a few minutes looking at stats.  

Get your head out of stats & watch some video of games!  

[BuffaloBillyG]

9 minutes ago, Albany,n.y. said:

Stats are for losers, especially QB stats. Always have been, always will.  That's why teams spend hours looking at film rather than a few minutes looking at stats.  

I'll repeat: Stats are for losers, especially QB stats. Always have been, always will.  That's why teams spend hours looking at film rather than a few minutes looking at stats.  

Get your head out of stats & watch some video of games!  

I'm sorry. I'm already debating one person with a clueless view. I limit my interaction with clueless takes to one a day. Today's not your day. Tomorrow's not looking great either. I can pencil you in for Tuesday if that works?

[Albany,n.y.]

16 minutes ago, BuffaloBillyG said:

I'm sorry. I'm already debating one person with a clueless view. I limit my interaction with clueless takes to one a day. Today's not your day. Tomorrow's not looking great either. I can pencil you in for Tuesday if that works?

Don't, stat boy.  Go and watch some NFL games, stop looking at stats & then you might actually get a clue.  If you do that it will take a lot longer than Tuesday for you to understand NFL football.  Get back to us in a few months after you've been educated.  

Edited February 10, 2022 by Albany,n.y.

[EasternOHBillsFan]

27 minutes ago, Albany,n.y. said:

Don't, stat boy.  Go and watch some NFL games, stop looking at stats & then you might actually get a clue.  If you do that it will take a lot longer than Tuesday for you to understand NFL football.  Get back to us in a few months after you've been educated.  

 

"Stats are for losers" coming from which NFL scouting or personnel expertise?

 

You are making declarations as if you are an expert when clearly you aren't in a position to be considered one. Watching football on television or your DVR is not experience, FYI, so when you make statements like that it reflects poorly on YOU.

[Albany,n.y.]

12 minutes ago, EasternOHBillsFan said:

 

"Stats are for losers" coming from which NFL scouting or personnel expertise?

 

You are making declarations as if you are an expert when clearly you aren't in a position to be considered one. Watching football on television or your DVR is not experience, FYI, so when you make statements like that it reflects poorly on YOU.

Tell me, why do the pros spend hours looking at film?  It reflects poorly on YOU that you don't understand what the professionals do. 

Stats are for losers, LOSER.   

[DJB]

Murray has always come off as a whiny cry baby